Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by MASTER_DOODOO, Oct 10, 2007.
What the Jedi believed they were fighting for was no different than what Luke did.
The initial order was placed by Sifo-Dyas, and Order 66 was not pre-programmed.
The Jedi were fighting for the Sith, doing what the Sith wanted them to do. Luke was fighting for the cause of good, guided by the Alliance.
Which means nothing.
It means that the Jedi were doing evil rather than good.
It has no bearing on the Jedi's morality. With what they knew the cause of the Republic was the same noble cause it had always been. All it shows is they were ignorant of what the Republic was becoming, which I agree with.
Yah, I guess I do like to think of the jedi as wise guardians of peace instead of bungling jackasses. Lucas didn't have to make them look so stupid in the PT, but he did anyway. I'm not about to blame myself for that.
They're still wise guardians of peace and justice, they just were tricked by Palpatine's execution of a Sith plan that was a millenia in the making.
And it shows that they've lost their way, because they've allowed themselves to become arrogant. Maybe ignorant. However, when it comes to how they handled the situation, they screwed up from day one. Their hearts were in the right place, but good intentions aren't always enough.
The Jedi made all the right moves with the information they had. Nothing but the words of a psychotic and a Sith Lord indicated that the Sith were in control.
The jedi didn't do anything right. Are you kidding me? Even the simplist of things - staying together - was hard for Yoda to get right.
So Yoda's not supposed to feel anything when the entire Jedi Order is destroyed? He felt his grief, accepted it, and did what he believed he had to.
Yoda was fine. It was Mace who was in the wrong.
No, Yoda was right to go for divide and conquer against the Sith. But they did a lot of things wrong.
They should've listened to him. Their abilities were diminshed. They couldn't see what was going on around them. Instead of listening and taking a different tract, they all but disbelieved him and paid the price for it.
The Jedi should have, in hindsight, investigated the information given by Dooku. It wouldn't necessarily have blown their investigation-budget to pieces either - Mace, for instance, could have tried doing a thing called getting out of his chair. They got a very good lead by Dooku, and by following that lead, they could have found out who had most power in the Senate - and all the signs would lead them to one person...
Only in a pragmatic sense, which has little to do with the Dark Side.
In hindsight I agree. However, with what the Jedi knew they had no reason to believe that Darth Tyrannus was being honest.
But nor should you assume anything, should you? Yoda says as much - and he even implies that they should look into it - but it seems they never did.
We know they do look into it to an extent. It doesn't make them operate on 'an entirely different tract'(at least how I'd use the phrase) but they do decide to keep a closer eye on the Senate.
Their arrogance had cost them dearly because they assumed he was wrong. Rather than waking up and smelling the coffee, they continued to wallow in their arrogance. Sure, they kept an eye on the Senate, but the point is moot by then.
Being provoked to change your mind, is enough.
Hmm, agree we do... Something is clearly wrong
(although I think you are using arrogance a bit freely here)
The Jedi in the PT are as dumb as you can get. They spent what 12 years in the company of the very man they were looking for and not one of them could see he was the BAD GUY.
GL has ruined what i thought the Jedi were like in the old days by making them about as smart as the average potato.
Palpatine hid from them in the Force. Making himself nearly invisible, behind a facade of a kindly old man who could be trusted. The Jedi's arrogance made it possible to hid his true nature. The Jedi did start to pick up some bad vibes from Palpatine, but they assumed that it was due to his being just a politician. Not a Sith Lord. As Dooku said, they'd never sense it until it was too late. The Council couldn't concieve of a Sith Lord hiding in plain sight.
That's the first the Jedi Order hears of it as Obi-Wan doesn't mention it in his holographic message to them. If it was too late, there was absolutely nothing the Jedi could have done with what they knew.
So it's wrong to ever change your mind based on new information?
Lucas also explains it throughout the Prequels.
"Hard to see the Dark Side is.", "The Dark Side clouds everything...", "The Dark Side of the Force has clouded their vision.", "The shroud of the Dark Side has fallen.", and of course the Jedi's general distrust of politicians. There's also that Palpatine was likely using the 'art of the small' if you follow the EU.
IIRC, Clone Wars-era EU has both Maul and Dooku doing something similar... Dooku calls it "Quey-tek meditations", right? Can we retcon this to be like the art of the small?
no. It's more of a medichlorian thing than art of the small.
According to the Wookieepedia it seems like Qey'tek I'd say it seems to be possibly a modified form of the Art of the Small(or vice-versa depending on what existed first.)