Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by MASTER_DOODOO, Oct 10, 2007.
Exactly. If someone cannot see this, then they need to get their heads examined.
Actually, it does. Anakin sees Mace as a hypocrite and he is to a degree. Yes, Mace sensed that Palpatine was still dangerous, but Mace still should've upheld his original position and arrest Palpatine.
Mace changed his mind because he was afraid to lose the Republic. He was angry at Palpatine for everything that he has done. And when provoked, he goes from making an arrest to killing. Which as Lucas points out and as we see, he was doing the right thing at first. Then he changes his mind and makes matters worse.
No, Anakin was as he often was blinded by his passion and selfishness.
Mace changed his mind because he realized just how dangerous Palpatine was and realized arrest wasn't possible.
But it is hypocritical. The Code says not to kill an unarmed and helpless person, but that is what Mace was going to do. Yes, Anakin is blind passion and selfishness, but he also sees Mace being hypocritical.
But only because he was goaded into it and as Lucas says, that is where Mace is wrong.
You keep giving me this same answer . . . and it still does not make any sense, considering that Anakin was the one who had originally alerted Mace of Palpatine's status as a Sith Lord.
And by the way, what Sith robe? I don't recall Palpatine wearing a Sith robe when Mace and the other Jedi had appeared in his office.
When did being a Sith was considered against the law by the Republic?
And therein lies the problem. Sidious was unarmed, but NOT helpless. He CLEARLY demonstrates that he doesn't need a lightsaber to be a dangerous Sith Lord. Because he was still dangerous, Mace's actions would not be against the Code. Sidious actively tried to kill Mace, AFTER being disarmed of his lightsaber. You can't even claim that Mace was just assuming Sidious was still dangerous, Sidious demonstrated himself that he was still dangerous. Anakin even witnesses this display. He has NO excuse other than his own selfish desires to protect Sidious. He knew Mace was right, he knew that Sidious was still very dangerous, but was desperate. He claimed it was against the Jedi way, knowing full well it wasn't. But, what else was he supposed to say? He thought he needed Sidious alive...
Which is part of why Anakin was wrong. Mace was able to see that Palpatine wasn't as helpless as he was pretending.
He does, and pragmatically Mace was wrong given how unstable Anakin was. Morally however is a whole other issue.
And therein lies the problem. Sidious was unarmed, but NOT helpless. He CLEARLY demonstrates that he doesn't need a lightsaber to be a dangerous Sith Lord. Because he was still dangerous, Mace's actions would not be against the Code.
I don't buy it. Even if Sidious had the ability to use the Force, he had refrained himself when Mace finally decided to strike him dead. He only survived, due to Anakin's actions. Like Yoda did later in the movie, Mace and the Jedi had acted against Palpatine without the Senate's authority.
They did, but while the Jedi serve the Senate they only serve it secondary to the Force.
Given Sidious's immediate and total rejuvenation in strength as soon as Anakin turns on Mace, I suggest that Sidious was pretending to be far weaker than he actually was, and at that point, was putting on a bit of a show for Anakin's benefit. He was never helpless. If Anakin had known how non-helpless he was, he wouldn't have felt the need to turn on Mace to protect him, thus completing his turn to the Dark Side. Sidious could have beaten Mace, but he needed Anakin to do it, to complete his turn.
The Senate outlawed them shortly after the events of KOTOR (the game). They were still an illegal organization at the time of POD.
Yes, but Anakin needs to be convinced that everything Palpatine tells him is a lie. Meaning that the power to cheat death is a lie. Do you get it now.
The one Palpatine put on after the duel was over.
It's not so much that he's a Sith that is the problem, but the fact that he started the war and controlled both sides. If the President of the US were discovered to be in league with Bin Laden, I gurantee you his ass would be impeached so fast his head would spin.
But Anakin is right as well. It is a contradiction. Palpatine was unarmed, which according to the Code, makes it wrong to kill him.
As Palpatine shows when he launches Mace from the window, he's not unarmed in the traditional sense.
I'm going to use the same line of logic that Sinister uses with Mace, but instead insert Yoda into the mix. Watch how utterly ridiculous this sounds:
Yoda goes to arrest the chancellor and bring him in to stand trial. He alerts Bail Organa that he will need a speeder to transport the Chancellor back to the jail. He knocks out the guards first, cause he knows they'll get in the way. Then Sidious blasts him with Sith lightning. Instead of getting up and trying to arrest the chancellor like was originally inteneded, Yoda feels all this darkside energy swelling inside him and decides to force push Sidious back into the desk. Finally, Yoda can't control all his emotions, and the darkside is getting the better of him. The Chancellor tries to leave, cause he doesn't want to fight anymore and is basically throwing up his hands. But then Yoda really feels the hate building up inside himself and blocks his exit and turns on his lightsaber. Sidious has no choice but to defend himself, so he lights his lightsaber up too. Then Yoda attacks Sidious and tries to end his life.
Ha ha ha ha. Sinister, come on. I can't understand for the life of me why you feel Mace was doing anything other than what ANY jedi would do if they were capable of it.
Sorry, but Mace was way out of line.
Yes, but Mace was unarmed now. And it is then that Anakin realizes that he was wrong. But when he made his decision, it wasn't just fueled by his greed and selfishness. But by his seeing Mace as a hypocrite.
Because he was goaded into killing Palpatine. Yoda wasn't there to arrest Palpatine, he was there to kill him. Yoda wasn't goaded into this. He made this choice free and clear, without any emotional stake like Mace had. Mace was there to arrest Palpatine so that he could stand trial for his crimes, which is right. He is wrong when he lets fear, anger and hate control his actions. He lets Palpatine manipulate him into changing his mind. He goes from doing the right thing to helping bring down the Jedi Order, unintentionally.
Ok then, Yoda would be way out of line.
I'm not arguing that Anakin saw Mace as a hypocrite he was simply wrong. He made his choice because he was weak and unable to let go of Padme.
So what you're saying is that Mace held out hope that a peaceful resolution to the conflict could be reached LONGER than Yoda did? Yoda just said "screw it" and used his darkside emotions without even trying the arrest technique? I don't get this.
No, Yoda didn't use the dark side. He didn't just say "screw it". Yoda realized that at this point, the Republic is gone. There is no arrest to be made and no trial to be held. Now, he has to stop Sidious without using the law. He is not goaded into this. Mace is goaded into committing cold blooded murder, sparked on by his emotions. In choosing to change his mind, he damned himself and the other Jedi just as Anakin did.
But Anakin is right. If the Jedi are willing to go to such lengths, they are no better than the Sith. Remember, Palpatine was trying to convince Anakin that they are more alike than they care to admit. Mace allowed himself to be played, just as much as Anakin did. He allowed his emotions to get in the way.
If the Jedi are willing to kill Sith out of a selfless desire to defend the Republic they're no better than the Sith?
But was Mace's reasons completely selfless? We don't know. If one were to look at the eu, it looks like he did it out of attachment to the Republic. That might be Stover taking liberties. In the film, Palpatine does say that all those who have power are afraid to lose it. It's not unreasonable as many speculated, that Mace was afraid of that happening. When Yoda goes to fight Palpatine, the Jedi's powers are gone. So there is no fear or anger or hate. Complete selflessness.
Mace's motivation is simply to defend the Republic by killing Palpatine because as Mace says "He controls the Senate and the courts." It wasn't about fearing a loss of power and contrary to appearances it's not the same as Anakin's execution of Dooku. The line "all who have power are afraid to lose it." and the surface similarities to Anakin's execution of Dooku are simply there to make Palpatine's lies look credible enough that Anakin would believe them when they're actually full of nonsense.
Anakin and Dooku are the same as Mace and Palpatine. Both reacted emotionally. Both were angry at the man they were fighting, for all the injustices of the universe. Mace was motivated in part by fear of losing power, because of what he said. "If the Jedi Order is to survive". Granted, the Sith will destroy the Jedi. But it does sound as if he is acting out of fear. One of the themes in the Saga is centers around change. If we don't change and adapt, we will not survive. Change was coming and the Jedi weren't willing to change. Mace feared change. Yes, Palpatine controls all of this. No doubt about that and that is what Mace fears. He fears such a drastic change that would eliminate everything that he has spent his life defending. Just as Anakin fears losing everything that he has built up in the last three years.
No, it sounds as though Mace understands that the survival of the Jedi Order hinges on Mace destroying Palpatine and that if the Jedi fall "The oppression of the Sith" will return.
Mace doesn't fear loss, he simply knows that the fall of the Jedi Order will have horrendous consequences and that as a Jedi Master and senior member of the Jedi Council, Mace cannot allow that as long as he draws breath.