PT Yoda: "Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose." (PLEASE SEE WARNING ON PAGE 14)

That's why he says they and not we. He doesn't feel as if he is a Jedi and after he says what he says, the script points out that he is in deep thought. Meaning that he's thinking about what Palpatine is saying and he's confused, because what Palpatine says makes too much sense and what he was taught doesn't.

 

Your open to your own interpretation, but you certainly don't speak for the character. From his quick response and body language, in my opinion he is quite confident that the Sith and Jedi are not similar at all, which is the reality of the situation.

It doesn't make sense at all. The Jedi are taught to let go of worldly possessions and let the ones they love pass into the Force. The Sith hold onto everything they can and hoard all that is precious to them. Saying those two are the same makes zero sense. Anyone with common sense wouldn't find that dynamic confusing in the least.

Perhaps some feel it, but the Jedi don't act on fear ("there is no emotion, there is peace") They also are no motivated by greed. These are whole truths. They aren't perfect, yes. Does this make them ANYTHING like the homicidal tyrants that the Sith are? Absolutely not.

Other than the Force / lightsaber dynamic, the Jedi are nothing like the Sith.

 

double post

 

double post

 

But they do act on fear sometimes. They are motivated by greed sometimes. The Jedi are not infallible beings. And by the time of Episode III, the Jedi are increasingly allowing themselves to fall prey to dark emotions.

 

Please provide an example.

Who said they are not infallible? We said they aren't like the Sith. This is the argument we're having right now:

You: The Jedi are like the Sith.
Me: How? The Sith are murderous psychopaths.
You: The Jedi aren't perfect either.
Me:

 

Going to war when they knew that they shouldn't. Yoda even stated that they were motivated by fear.

YODA: "Padawan, thousands of Jedi once there were. Then came war. In our arrogance, join the conflict swiftly we did. Fear, anger, hate. Consumed by the dark side the Jedi were."

EZRA: "Was it wrong for the Jedi to fight? Is it wrong for me to protect my friends?"

YODA: "Wrong? Hmm. A long time, fought I did. Consumed by fear I was, though see it I did not."

EZRA: "You were afraid?"

YODA: "Yes, afraid. Hmm, surprised are you? A challenge lifelong it is, not to bend fear into anger."

Neither did Palpatine. He said that they are similar in almost every way. What Palpatine says is that all those who have power are afraid to lose it, even the Jedi. This is why Palpatine when he was able to gain the political power to have more control over the Council, the Jedi start asking Anakin to spy on him and talk about overthrowing him if he doesn't turn over control to the Senate. Actions that go against the Jedi way and comes across as trying to hold onto their power because they're afraid to lose it. These sound like the things that a Sith would do.

 

They are like the Sith in some ways. The Sith are human beings, and so are the Jedi. Everyone has a dark side.

Your problem is that you seem to think the phrase "The Jedi are similar to the Sith in some ways" is the same as the phrase "The Jedi are identical to the Sith in every way."

 

A. They didn't "know they shouldn't." The CIS had an army, the options were fight back, or lay down and die, and let innocent citizens die. This is not fear.
B. This wasn't in the films, so I don't acknowledge it as part of the saga.

Nothing in that statement includes the Jedi doing anything similar to the Sith lool You literally could have said:

"What Palpatine says is that all those who have power are afraid to lose it, even the Jedi. This is why Palpatine eats a sandwich and puts mayo on it while watching some TV."

...and you would have made as much sense.

A. Neither group is all human. They are multi-species groups.
B. I admitted they have similarities. They both use the Force, they both use lightsabers, they both fly ships. What I don't prescribe to is the notion that their conduct/values/actions are at all similar; to be clear.

 

Are we honestly having to discuss this? I thought it was made clear since 1977 that the Sith were defacto bad guys. Sure, the Jedi has flaws, sure they may give into fear, but they don’t seek to enslave and oppress others. There’s a measurable difference between “I am mostly good, but letting my fear get in the way” and “I am a cold-hearted bastard who wants to enslave everyone.”

 

No DARTHLINK don't you get it!? An imperfect altruistic good guy is the same as a murderous villain!

 

Actually, it is. Because every decision was made based on fear. An army existed that they had no knowledge of, nor involvement in existed. Their ability to use the Force has diminished. They haven't found Darth Sidious after ten years. The Separatists have amassed a huge Droid Army and will attack. The Senate is ineffective and impotent. The negotiations have failed to work and war is inevitable. The dark side is growing stronger. They acted out of fear as Yoda told Ezra. They were arrogant to think that they could stop the war before it began. Palpatine manipulated them because their altruistic nature dictated that they do something, yet as Mace said, they're not soldiers and they became soldiers.

It is part of the Saga, whether you want to accept it or not.

It isn't about going out and trying to rule the galaxy, or killing billions. It is about how the Jedi behave and as Anakin points out, the actions of the Council were troubling and Obi-wan didn't do a good job denying that what they were doing was wrong. Even Yoda said that removing Palpatine from office was taking them to a dark place. Even Mace Windu goes from arresting to killing Palpatine, which Anakin realizes is hypocritical because he was taught that if someone was weak and helpless, which Palpatine was pretending to be, was wrong for him, then why is it right for him? These are the things that Anakin sees and it is because Palpatine has blurred the lines and has manipulated the Jedi into going to places where they wouldn't go willingly otherwise.

 

A. Star Wars is about humans and human nature. The alien aspect is just window dressing. Yoda and Darth Maul are as human as Anakin Skywalker in every way that matters. Star Wars doesn't even remotely deal with the speculative fiction concept of aliens having different psychologies than humans. It's not what it's about, and it's not relevant to the stories being told.
B. Their conduct and actions are sometimes similar. Their values have some similarities and some very fundamental differences.

 

Nothing in that statement includes the Jedi doing anything similar to the Sith.

Nope, they went to Geonosis to save innocent people from being executed, and to stop the Republic from being invaded. Saving the lives of billions.

Oh? That's funny sure has a lot of aliens in it.

Like?

 

I don't quite know how to have a conversation with you because you're either pretending to not understand what I'm saying here, or else you're literally incapable of it.

e: Hey, let's do a little experiment. Remember the part of my post you cut out? This part?

Can you, in your own words, state what you think I'm saying here? I'm not asking you to agree with me, I'm just wondering if you can rephrase my argument to the point where I can agree that you understand it.

Here, I'll do the same thing for you first. This is what I think your argument is: Star Wars isn't just about humans, because it has a lot of aliens in it, and aliens are by definition not humans. Did I get that right?

 

Okay okay, I'll give the sarcasm a rest. SW certainly isn't just about humans. I don't know what you mean or what is gained by saying Yoda is as human as Anakin. He is 1/3 Anakin's size, he's green old and wrinkled and talks funny. Would he be the same character if he was human? I guess, but in a space opera it makes sense to show the gamut of galactic species. In the OT especially aliens are used to show the diversity of the Rebels vs the specist human-only structure of the Empire.

 

Read what Phantom Calamari says.

-Human: relating to or characteristic of people or human beings.

-Human nature: the general psychological characteristics, feelings, and behavioral traits of humankind, regarded as shared by all humans.

Yoda and Anakin are both human in terms of having emotions and feelings for people. Same with Maul. Yoda feels for all people. He is saddened at the death of the Jedi as he is at the death of Padme. That makes him human. Anakin is human for his feelings as well, when Shmi dies and he fears for Padme. His only failure is in how he deals with his emotions. Maul's humanity surfaces when he learns of his brother Savage Oppress and is angered when he is killed by Palpatine. That is human nature.

 

Yeah it's also about aliens. Dozens of species of aliens. Repeating something doesn't make it more real.

 

I'm not being sarcastic. Can you repeat my argument in your own words like I did for yours? I genuinely want to know if you can.

 

Following instructions from people on the internet could lead me down a dark path that will forever dominate my destiny. No thanks.

 

It was never in the OT that the Empire had slaves.

There's some difference but not necessarily a lot between "I want to rule in the throne" and "I want to be the government's enforcers," at some level the latter position gives a lot of power and influence on ruling.

 

A loyal soldier out to serve his regime isn't necessarily much better than a greedy soldier out for himself.

 

There's the deleted scene from ANH (present in the original novel but not the movie)- which is canon now - though it was clarified as having happened a bit before the movie itself:


Biggs: "Luke, I didn't come back just to say goodbye; I shouldn't tell you this, but you're the only one I can trust. See... I may never come back and I just want someone to know."
Luke: "What are you talking about?"
Biggs: (whispering) "I made some friends at the academy; when our frigate leaves for one of the central systems, we're going to jump ship and join the Alliance."
Luke: "THE REBELLION!?"
Biggs: "Quiet down will ya? You've got a mouth bigger than a meteor!"
Luke: "I'm quiet, I'm quiet! Listen to how quiet I am; you can barely hear me..."
Biggs: "My friend has a friend on Bestine who might help us make contact."
Luke: "You're crazy: you could wander around forever trying to find them!"
Biggs: "I know it's a long shot, but if I don't find them I'll do what I can on my own. It's what we always talked about Luke. I'm not going to wait around for the Empire to draft me into service. The Rebellion is spreading, and I want to be on the side I believe in."
Luke: "Yeah, meanwhile I'm stuck here."
Biggs: "You'll get your chance to get off this rock. You're going to the academy next term aren't you?"
Luke: "Hmmm, not likely. I had to cancel my application."
Biggs: "What for?"
Luke: "My Uncle needs me."
Biggs: (teasing) "Awwww."
Luke: "No I'm serious, the sandpeople have been getting really crazy. They've even raided the outskirts of Anchorhead!"
Biggs: "Come on Luke? Your Uncle could hold off an entire colony of sandpeople with one blaster."
Luke: "I know. But We've got almost enough vaporators to make the place pay off. I have to stay one more season; I can't leave him now."
Biggs: "What good's all your Uncle's work if the Empire takes it over? You know they've already started to nationalize commerce in the central systems. It won't be long before your Uncle is just a tenant: slaving for the greater glory of the Empire."
Luke: "No that's not going to happen here. You said yourself the Empire won't even mess with this old rock."
Biggs: "Things can change."
Luke: "I wish I was going. Are you going to be around long?"
Biggs: "No. I'm leaving in the morning."
Luke: "Then I guess I won't see you."
Biggs: "Maybe someday... I'll keep a lookout."
Luke: "Yeah... I'll be at the academy next season and then who knows? I won't be drafted into the Imperial Starfleet that's for sure. Well... take it easy buddy. You'll always be the best friend I've ever had."
Biggs: "So long Luke."

There was also OT-era tie-in media like Star Wars Poster Monthly, which was the first to portray the Galactic Empire as using clones, which have "no human rights" and are "property of the Empire" - so, slaves.

The newcanon made it clear the Empire stopped production of clones right after AOTC - but the description still sounds like it would work as a summary of the lives of the clones that had just been decanted from the Kaminoan vats in the last few days of the war.

1978
STAR WARS: OFFICIAL POSTER MONTHLY #4

Published January 1978 by Galaxy Publications. Text writers Jon Trux, John May, Anthony Fredrickson.

http://www.theforce.net/image_popup/image_popup_global.asp?Image=timetales/misc/arcana/post4-03.jpg

 

Okay, fine. I felt it was a pretty reasonable request made in good faith, but no one's going to twist your hand.

 

What's being talked about in that deleted scene is precisely what Lando is trying so hard to avoid in TESB.

 

Sounds a lot better due to the description you just gave.

 

The focus is more on the humans than on the aliens, especially the Skywalker men who are human.