PT Yoda: "Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose." (PLEASE SEE WARNING ON PAGE 14)

I would say that part of Anakin's problem is that he doesn't mourn or grieve, not really.
He suffered a horrible loss and reacted with anger and hate that lead to a lot of death.
So he feels terrible, which is understandable.

Mourning and grieving is about saying goodbye and then letting go.
But Anakin doesn't really do that.
Instead he wants to avoid feeling this way ever again. So he makes a dangerous promise to his mother and wants to find ways to stop people from dying.
So he doesn't really deal with his feelings of loss and sadness and instead wants to find ways to not suffer those feelings again.

And speaking about Obi-Wan in TPM, what he did was a total no-no based on what Yoda said in RotS. He should not have shed even ONE tear, he should not have been sad even for an instant.
"Miss them do NOT, mourn them do NOT."
So mourning or grieving is somethign a Jedi must NEVER do.
This is what Yoda explicitly SAYS in the film.
Obi-Wan should just have instantly gotten over Qui-Gon's death and been happy about it.

He does ignore it because he has been told since TPM that he must not miss or think about his mother. So these dreams are getting in the way of him being a proper Jedi.
So he brushes them aside and tries to act like nothing.
But he can't.

Anakin had trained as a Jeid for almost ten years. Surely by now he would have been told that Force users can sometimes get visions of things that happen to people they care about.
They might be from the future or the present.
So him suddenly getting disturbing visions about his mother should tell him something.
Of if he somehow didn't know, why didn't he ask?
"Hey Obi-Wan, I keep getting these very disturbing visions of my mother in pain, what could they mean?"
But doing that would show that he hasn't forgotten about his mother, like he should have, so he tries to ignore it.

Also, why did he get these visions?
If the Force sent it to him but didn't want him to act, why do it?
This would make the Force a colossal ****. "Hey you remember that mother that you are not supposed to do anything about? Well here are some horrible nightmares about her."

Say that Yoda had terrible dreams about Order 66 every night for a month.
Do you think he would have gotten worried or thought that something bad was coming?
Would he, shock and horror, actually try and do something to prevent it?
Or would he just brush it aside. "Horrible dreams I have, mean nothing they do, ignore them I will."

Well he did sense Anakin's pain in AotC but in the films he did squat about that.

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As others have said, it was a result of a direct action. A violent and unnatural death.
She didn't die of old age, she died because she was tortured to death.
And your argument here makes no sense.
So a Jedi sees a person fall of a bridge, into the water and starting to drown, the Jedi must NOT help?
This was random chance so they should ignore it right?
Or if a Jedi sees a random mugging on the street, they should also ignore it?

Sorry you can't have it both ways.
If deaths are "Fated", "meant to be" then you can not pick and choose from those that die.
So the Jedi all dying was just as "Fated", "meant to be" as Shmi.
Both are violent, unnatural deaths, caused by direct actions.

The Jedi should know and be aware that they can't save everyone.
But to then argue that this means they should never try and save ANYONE is quite something else.
Doctors know that they will sometimes loose patients. It will probably hurt and make them not feel good. But most doctors don't give up trying to save people regardless.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Not true. We see Yoda's reaction to the Younglings death in the Temple and by Padme's death. He is bothered by their deaths. But as you pointed out, Anakin held onto his grief and used it as a driving force. What Obi-wan did and what Luke does, is acceptable, because they both let go. Obi-wan's grief here isn't as damning as Anakin's. This is why he is allowed to become a Knight.

He was never told to not think about his mother. He was told that his fear of losing her was a problem, not that he should ever think of her. There's a difference. He doesn't dismiss these dreams as not being a proper Jedi, but because he doesn't know what they are. Obi-wan sees them as just dreams spurred on by negative feelings. He doesn't realize that they're visions of the moment. The only time he brushes them aside is when Padme is present and there it is because he needs to focus on the mission.

Obi-wan does know of them.

OBI-WAN: "You look tired."

ANAKIN: "I don't sleep well anymore."

OBI-WAN: "Because of your mother?"

ANAKIN: "I don't know why I keep dreaming about her."

OBI-WAN: "Dreams pass in time."

ANAKIN: "I'd much rather dream about Padme."

It seems unlikely that he was seeing her tortured the whole time. Especially since the last one he has, he can hear her voice, calling to him. The novelization indicated that the first time he had one before going to Ansion, it was a normal situation that ended in an abrupt manner. As to having visions, he knows that a Jedi can have them. He himself had one ten years ago.

ANAKIN: "I had a dream I was a Jedi. I came back here and freed all the slaves...have you come to free us?"

He and Obi-wan would have discussed that during their time together.

No one knows why a Force user has these visions. They're part of the great mystery as Lucas put it. They are an aspect of the Cosmic Force.

"What these films deal with is that we all have good and evil inside of us, and that we can choose which way we want the balance to go. Star Wars is made up of many themes, it's not just a single theme. One is our relationship to machines, which is fearful, but also benign, they are an extension of the human, not mean in themselves. The issue of friendship, your obligation to your fellow man, to other people who are around you.This is a world where evil has run amuck. But you have control over your destiny, that you HAVE a destiny, that you have many paths to walk down, and you may have a great destiny if you decide not to walk down that path. Your life might be satisfying, if you wake up and listen to your inner feelings and realize what it is you have a particular talent for and what contributions you can make to society."

--George Lucas, Bill Moyers interview, 1999.

"The Force itself breaks into two sides: the living Force and a greater, Cosmic Force. The Living Force makes you sensitive to other living things, makes you intuitive, and allows you to read other people's minds, etc. But the greater Force has to do with destiny. In working with the Force, you can find your destiny and you can choose to either follow it or not."

--George Lucas, Star Wars: The Making of Episode I, 1999.

MOYERS: So while Star Wars is about cosmic, galactic epic struggles, it's at heart about a family?

LUCAS: And a hero. Most myths center on a hero, and it's about how you conduct yourself as you go through the hero's journey, which in all classical myth takes the form of a voyage of transformation by trials and revelations. You must let go of your past and must embrace your future and figure out what path you're going to go down.

--Of Myth And Men interview, 1999.

It isn't so much that he cannot act, it is that he must decide how to act and when to act. These visions come for Anakin when he is immersed in his duty to the Republic. He must choose to either stay on Naboo and protect Padme, or leave to check on his mother. If he chooses the latter, he will run the risk of being adversely affected by what he discovers and he will have to make another choice; to leave with his mother's body or to exact a terrible vengeance. This is his test and he fails it spectacularly. His next major vision is about saving Padme or losing her. It all leads to that moment in Palpatine's office where he either lets Mace kill him, or kill him himself or do what he winds up doing.

Likewise, Luke has his own trial. He must either stay and finish his training, in order to better deal with the Sith. Or he can go to rescue his friends, but he might fall in the process. And as a result, he's not fully trained when he does face the Sith. He succeeds where his father doesn't because he chooses to trust in the Force and chooses against turning, rather than joining his father in darkness. Rey also has her own vision. She sees her past and sees her future. And she must choose to either train as a Jedi with Luke, or run away from her destiny. She chooses to run at first, but then she embraces her destiny.

I never said that the Jedi should never try to save anyone. What I'm saying is that there is a difference between events that are within their power to change and things that they cannot change. A Jedi must be calm and at peace in order to decide how best to save someone and if it is within their grasp to do so. When Ahsoka and Barriss were trapped and running out of air, their Masters did try to rescue them and did succeed. But as Luminara told Anakin, he has to accept that they might not succeed and be prepared to deal with it if that is the case. Yoda tells Luke that his destiny might not be to save his friends. If they are to die, then it is their time to die. Regardless of it being Vader or flying into a supernova. It is also evident that while Luke could save Han, now was not the time to do so. But he rushes off without thinking things through rationally and as a result, he suffers for it. When he stops and thinks it through, when he prepares himself for it, then he is able to get Han out of Jabba's palace. Later, Luke has to accept that his friends will either succeed or fail to survive Palpatine's trap without his help. Without his turning in order to prevent it.

Not true. In TESB, we see Luke's vision of what will happen if he kills Vader. It isn't so clear to him as to why this was an important thing to remember as part of his training. Evident when Yoda has to remind him off it and only when he is about to kill him, does he finally understand the meaning of the vision. Likewise, Anakin sees Padme dying, but he thinks that means that he has to save her. He fails to understand that his quest to save her is what will kill her until it is too late. So, yes, it is accurate.

 

Luke was told not to act on his vision because he hadn't finished his training and the suffering he sensed was being deliberately induced in order to lure him to Bespin. It is stated explicitly in the dialogue. It had nothing to do with your invented conditions for which visions you ought to act on, or when you are supposed to prevent a death you foresee possibly happening.

Ask youself. What is the point of the Force making some people foresee the violent deaths of their friends? It doesn't make sense.

 

Uh, I'm pretty sure Qui-Gon was (1) murdered and (2) done with deliberate intent. It wans't like he and Mace Windu were trying to move a piano up the stairs only for it to roll back down, crushing Qui-Gon in the process.

The only difference is that Maul didn't spend months torturing Qui-Gon. Still, the end results are the same, and Obi-Wan had to learn to let go and not obsess over how he couldn't save his master.

 

All you have showed is that not even the wise master Yoda practices what he preaches.
So either Yoda is a massive hypocrite by demanding Anakin to follow dogma that not even he is following.
Or, as I've said many times now, Yoda phrased his advice very badly.
Take your pick.

Yoda SAYS in RotS, that you should NOT mourn or grieve. That is what he says, the words are right there.

In TPM the JC notes that Anakin's thoughts dwell on his mother and that leads into Yoda's dire prophet of doom speech about how bad things will come from Anakin's, quite normal feelings about loosing his mother. And Anakin has an attachment to his mother, but that is bad and something he should not have. So he should not miss his mother, he should not worry about her. He should not even think about her.
This fits with what Yoda says in RotS, that you should NOT miss a person once they are dead.
If you miss someone, that means you think about that person. And the best way to not miss someone is to not think about that person at all.

Excep the films says otherwise.
In ESB, Vader captures Han and Leia and tortures them. He does this to make Luke sense their pain and come to him.


So clearly Vader knows how the Force works in this instance.
Hurt someone close to a Force user and they will sense it.
That is why he hurts Han and Leia and not some random strangers. Luke knows Han and Leia so he will sense their pain. If Vader hurt some random people then Luke would not sense it.

Even Yoda and Obi-Wan also quickly realize that this is what is going on.

So Obi-Wan has no excuse to not know what is happening with Anakin's dreams about Shmi.
They have not been a regular feature over ten years, they started some time ago and is causing Anakin to not sleep.
The simplest and most obvious explanation is that something is happening to Shmi.

But Anakin had these dreams before he ever went to Naboo.
In AotC it seemed that Obi-Wan and Anakin had just returned from some mission and they were available to protect Padme. Did they arrive the same day or had they been there for a bit?
If the latter, then Anakin is not involved in a pressing matter and could go and check on his mother.
And had he gone earlier, then he might have saved his mother's life. And in turn this would have meant that he would not have gone kill crazy and murdered a lot of people.
This would have changed a lot for Anakin.

And suppose that Anakin didn't go to help Shmi.
Would he have sensed his mother dying?
Very likely.
How would that make him feel?
Most likely quite terrible.
He might not go kill crazy but he would most likely blame himself for not acting sooner.
And if he didn't sense it but found out later, same thing.

And again, why did Anakin get these dreams?
If the Force is behind it and gives them to Anakin but wants him to ignore them and not go to save his mother. That makes the Force a major ****.
Had Anakin not gotten any dreams, what then?
He would not have gone to Tatooine. Shmi would have died sure but if Anakin had not sensed that, he would have gone on like nothing happened.
And had he not gotten any dreams about Padme either, then he would not be looking for some power to stop death and Palpatine would not have the carrot to dangle in front of his face.

First, Luke KNEW that he was going into a trap.
You argue that Anakin doesn't know what his dreams mean.
So Luke has the chance to somewhat prepare, Anakin is going off blindly.
And protecting Padme, not a single attempt on her life has happened while they were on Naboo.
So would he have much reason to think she was in great danger?

If Luke hadn't gone then I think things would have been worse.
Vader, not one to suffer a set back with grace, would most likely have killed Leia and Chewie.
Maybe Han or Han would have gone with Boba Fett but Luke would not be aware of it.
Like with Anakin, I think it likely that Luke would have sensed their deaths.
And he most likely would have reacted badly.
He would blame Yoda and Obi-Wan for stopping him from leaving etc.
He would have even more reason to be pissed at Vader and could very well go after him right away with murder in his heart.
And even if he didn't do that, would a Luke, knowing that Vader killed his friends, be as willing to overlook that and try and save him? I doubt it.
He would be more like what Obi-Wan wanted him to be, someone that wants Vader dead.
And even if he did manage to kill Vader, how would he deal with Palpatine?

You are kind of saying that by arguing that Shmi's death was "fated" or "meant to be" and if Anakin was meant to stop it, he would have. But the death of the Jedi is different because of planning apparently.

So a woman being tortured to death, that is not something that the jedi should try and stop.
But the death of the Jedi in order 66, that is.
To me, both are quite bad and if they could be prevented, I would view that as a good thing.

Shmi didn't die of old age, her death was the result of violence and aggression. It was not natural.

Take Padme in AotC. When Anakin senses the killer bugs, does he stop and ponder his options and if he is meant to do something or not? No, he acts. Was that wrong?
For that matter, the jedi are assigned to protect Padme, to stop her from getting killed.
Where was this "oh maybe her death is fated thing" then?
You just decide whose death is fated and whose is not, just to serve your own argument.

Again, Shmi's death was totally within Anakin's power to stop.
And it would not take a lot of effort, simply leave sooner, get Shmi to safety and everything is fine.

And Yoda makes no effort to distinguish between the two in RotS.
He simply tells Anakin to NOT mourn or grieve. Nothing about how they can't always save people, not even a word about how the future is always in motion and what you see might not happen.
No useful advice, just dogma.

Nope, Luke does think things through. He knows he is walking into a trap.
But to him, the only other option is to do nothing and maybe let them die.
Esp since he knows that Vader is doing this to draw him out. Then he would most likely know that him not going would sooner or later alert Vader to the fact that his plan failed.
And Leia and the rest would most likely die.
And as I said above, had he not, I think things would have been worse.

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Except that that vision was part of a test of fear and aggression.
Luke was told to not bring his weapons, but he was scared and did so anyway.
When confronted with the image of Vader, an enemy, Luke attacked.
And aggression is part of the dark side.
So he is being trained to keep his aggressive feelings in check.

Anakin gets bad dreams about his mother in unrelated circumstances and feel bad about them.
He tries to ignore them until he can't anymore and goes to save her but is too late.
As far as Anakin knows, had he acted sooner, Shmi might have been saved.
So he would blame his own inaction as part of the reason why she died.
So when he gets the same kind of visions of Padme, no surprise, he thinks it is the same thing as what happened with his mother. She died and he could have stopped it.
So these visions combined with what happened to Shmi worked to push Anakin over the edge.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Because it is a test of character for them. A Jedi has to decide what and where their fate lies. It isn't about truly saving those people. It is about what they do when the moment comes. Anakin is seeing his mother in his dreams and he doesn't know what is causing these dreams, or why they're happening now after so many years. Then he realizes that she is in terrible danger and that he must go to her, but he is also endangering Padme by doing so. He has to make a choice, follow his duty or follow his heart. He chooses the latter and it brings him down. Luke has to make that same choice later on, when he leaves Dagobah. There is no invention of conditions. Anakin sees Padme dying and he thinks that he has to save her, because he believes that is the only thing that he can do. But trying to save her winds up killing her. Precognitive visions aren't really about changing the future, as they are omens of terrible things to come.

Or it is neither. Yoda is telling Anakin to not let the deaths of those he cares for, drive him to a dark place. A Jedi can mourn as Luminara says to Anakin, but she would also celebrate those that die. Anakin can only mourn.

You're making a leap in logic to say that he should never think of his mother. He's just told to be mindful of his feelings by the Council. You can think about someone and not miss them, nor mourn them. He's also told that fear of loss is the path to the dark side.

Not really. Anakin is having dreams about his mother. That doesn't automatically mean that she's in trouble. Nor does Obi-wan think that these are visions of the future. The Force can grant visions of the past and old friends long gone. In AOTC, Obi-wan has no attachments. So he has never had these visions. To automatically think that in AOTC is again a leap in logic. In TESB, they know better because they know about the Tusken Raiders now and the truth of what happened to them and Shmi.

It was supposed to be the same day. And Anakin has no idea that his dreams were visions of his mother in danger. So he has no reason to think that he has to go check on her. Not until the last one. Even in the deleted scene where Anakin and Padme are going to Naboo, he has another dream, but has no idea that it is serious.

ANAKIN: "No, no, Mom, no...What?"

PADMÉ: "You seemed to be having a nightmare. Are you hungry?"

ANAKIN: "Thank you."

PADME: "We just went to lightspeed a little while ago."

ANAKIN: "I look forward to seeing Naboo again. I've thought about it every day since I left. It's by far the most beautiful place I've ever seen..."

The only way for him to know how serious it was, was to have that last vision that he did have. But that still doesn't mean that he could go.

He would have felt bad, yes. But he wouldn't have committed those terrible actions which is more important. He wouldn't have become obsessed with stopping people from dying. And assuming that he doesn't sense it, the odds of him finding out are slim. Perhaps by the time that he would have, he might have been better able to cope.

See my response to Martoto77, up above.

Just because Luke knew it was a trap, doesn't mean it was the right thing to do. The point is that he is thinking of himself, same with his father. And just because no attempt happened while he was there, doesn't mean that one couldn't happen while he was gone and this time, it is successful. He would feel just as bad. Instead, she agrees to go with him which was also dangerous because he doesn't know for sure if Jango knows that she's on Naboo and not Coruscant. He doesn't know if Obi-wan has succeeded in capturing him or not. He doesn't know if there's a bunch of bounty hunters and assassins all over the place looking for her. He took an awful risk in leaving Naboo. Especially without doing as he was told.

The point is that if he had stayed and completed his training, he would be better equipped to deal with his friends sacrifice. Vader would have killed them, regardless of Luke coming or not. The true question Luke has to ask himself is, is this what his friends would want him to do? To come and rescue them. You can see it in their reaction to Lando's revelation that they're bait to lure Luke out of hiding. They don't want him to die for them. They're willing to die for him. After completing his training, he would be told about Vader. He would make his decisions then and he would be better equipped to accept their sacrifices, just as he winds up doing later on.

There is a difference in both. It isn't so simple. Shmi's death was one of those things that could happen to anyone who lived out near the Judland Wastes. Maybe he was meant to save her, maybe he wasn't. It was a random act. It could have happened to Cliegg, Owen or Beru, if they had gone out to pick mushrooms instead of Shmi. Maybe if Shmi had gone at midday instead of at dawn, she wouldn't have been taken. Maybe if she was with Watto, she would still be alive. There are many variables here. This is why I say that it was something that was meant to be. This is different from Order 66. That was a deliberate plan, set in motion years and methodically planned out. It wasn't random chance. There were no variables. There was no warning of it coming.

No, the point I'm making is that there are things that happen that are meant to happen. Just because you can see the future doesn't mean that you can change it. Or are meant to change it.

If it was so simple, why didn't he do it?

First, Yoda is told that someone that Anakin cares for dies in a vision. Not how or where, or when or even who. He's flying blind here. Second, Anakin knows that the future is in motion. Obi-wan would have taught him that. That doesn't mean that he believes in it, anymore.

And that is why a Jedi should not have an attachment and why Yoda says that they should not mourn and miss the dead. He is doing so because he failed to save his mother. The very things Yoda warns. They push him over the edge because he allows them to.

 

darth-sinister

So what you’re saying is that Anakin Skywalker fell to the dark side for committing the crime of being human, when he instead should’ve been a soulless robot. I strongly disagree with that, because if I did agree with that, I would consider the films to be hateful, misanthropic, worthless garbage.

As for following your duty vs. following your heart, I would much rather have people follow their hearts than their duty. In fact, under certain circumstances, international law actually requires people to follow their hearts instead of their duty. The Nuremberg trials established that precedent.

 

I asked this question in another thread, but I think it's appropriate here.

Okay, Ani is having dreams about his mother, that she's in pain. Kenobi thinks it's just bad dreams, but it's already been established that precognition is a Jedi trait. So, that nice lady who helped Qui-Gon, when she was under no obligation to do so, might be in trouble. Sending Ani to save her might cause problems, non-Jedi attachments being something they seem to be frightened of, because of what they might lead to.

So, why doesn't Kenobi ask, say, Jedi Bob to check on this? He's never met Shmi, doesn't know her, and has no attachment to her. He goes to Tatooine and deals with the situation, whatever it is. An innocent life is rescued, or at least protected, and Ani can focus on his studies. Or, just a comm call to the authorities on Tatooine (there have to be some cops there, Hutt world or not), asking them to check on Shmi Skywalker, who the Jedi think might be in danger. In either case, the matter is settled with far less risk than sending Ani to look into it, or just ignoring it.

It seems like the Jedi are stacking the deck. By acting (or not acting) as they did, they're not just teaching Ani to let go of what he fears to lose, they're making sure he will lose it. And they're putting aside their mandate to aid those in need in order to teach Ani a lesson.

Which brings up another question: if Ani, or any Jedi, had a dream of a complete stranger in trouble, would they be so quick to dismiss it? And another one: if attachments are so potentially harmful, why did Kenobi allow Luke to come with him on the trip to Alderaan? By the reckoning of the PT Jedi philosophy, Luke (who unknowingly is attached to Leia) should've stayed home, shouldn't he?

 

No, that's not the point. A Jedi is not supposed to have attachments to people. That doesn't make them soulless robots. It means that they have to be capable of controlling their emotions and not letting those emotions control them. He fell to the dark side because he was attached to his mother and he was attached to his wife and he let his fear, anger, hate, jealousy, obsessiveness, possessiveness and greed dictate his actions. Yoda warns that the dark side is fueled by emotions and it is quick to join them in battle. Only by letting go of those emotions and not being attached to people, can they truly become Jedi. They can love, but only unconditionally. Compassionately. Selflessly. By thinking of others instead of themselves. Anakin is only capable of that when he chooses to save Luke and only by letting go of his son and everything that he desired.

Anakin Skywalker had a duty to bring balance to the Force by destroying the Sith. He had a choice: save Padme, or save the galaxy by ending Palpatine. He chose saving Padme and damned everyone else who wound up suffering because of him. This is the result of following his heart over doing his duty.

Anakin didn't tell him that she was in pain. He just told him that he was having dreams about her.

OBI-WAN: "You look tired."

ANAKIN: "I don't sleep well anymore."

OBI-WAN: "Because of your mother?"

ANAKIN: "I don't know why I keep dreaming about her."

OBI-WAN: "Dreams pass in time."

ANAKIN: "I'd much rather dream about Padme."


It isn't until his last one that Anakin realizes that she's in pain and suffering.


PADME: "You had another nightmare last night."

ANAKIN: "Jedi don't have nightmares."

PADME: "I heard you."

ANAKIN: "I saw my mother. She is suffering, Padme. I saw her as clearly as I see you now. She is in pain."

Now he can see that she's in trouble whereas he couldn't before. This is what prompts him to decide to leave.

Because Obi-wan, like Anakin, doesn't know what is going on. If he had figured out sooner that she was in trouble, he would have gone to check on her or asked another Jedi to do so. He's not heartless. But he's also not omniscient either. What Anakin should have done was get in touch with Obi-wan, instead of rushing off half-cocked. He was even told to not do anything without talking to him or the Council first.

If they know that the person is in trouble. Ezra Bridger had a vision of himself with Gall Trayviss and realized that he needed to help him. He was a total stranger to him. But Kanan Jarrus also warned him that visions weren't always what they seemed and it turned out he was right as it was a trap that Ezra was seeing.

Luke wasn't attached to Leia in ANH. She was a stranger to him. Obi-wan was going to Alderaan to deliver the droids and the Death Star plans to Bail. Leia was captured and possibly dead, per her message. When they get there, they find that Alderaan is gone and it is Luke who discovers that Leia is alive, after Obi-wan let to shut down the tractor beam. Obi-wan only discourages Luke from leaving when he has become attached to Han and Leia, a full three years later.

 

Sorry, but just saying "Obi-Wan didn't know" doesn't mean he couldn't check, so that he would know. And a recurring dream of someone by a person known to have precognitive abilities would normally bring up the idea, "Could it be a warning?" Again, a simple comm call could've helped. The idea of checking with Obi-Wan first doesn't sound plausible, since Obi-Wan was on a mission of his own and had made it clear that he didn't accept the dreams as a warning.

The fact that, later, when Ani actually says he definitely sees visions of someone in pain, no one seems to offer any advice other than "let go" is troubling. Are we to assume that any attachment means that the Jedi can't take action at all? Even so much as handing the job over to someone else (local cops, doctors, family members)? Again, the Jedi seem to be willing to help people, unless there's some sort of attachment. Then, they just cut themselves off from the matter and don't get involved.

Sounds a bit like Uncle Owen, actually.

 

Why would he and Anakin think something is wrong if they do not know anything is wrong? What I mean is that these visions Anakin had weren't of her being in pain or suffering. He was just seeing her. The Force grants visions, but not all the time are they of the future. Sometimes they are of the past. And sometimes they're just dreams and nothing more. Obi-wan and Anakin have no reason to believe something terrible is going on. That's why they aren't concerned. And there is no one to call on Tatooine there is no local law enforcement. It's a lawless world.

Anakin isn't exactly forthcoming with Yoda about his visions. He doesn't say that she's suffering. He just tells Yoda that he saw someone close to him die. Nothing more. Yoda cannot offer him anything more than what Obi-wan has already taught him.

 

So, Kenobi doesn't know, and he can't check because he doesn't know, and he can't consider possibilities because he doesn't know, and he can't find out more because he doesn't know. Sorry, I'm confused. He can't know because he doesn't know? And the same goes for Yoda? Sounds like willful blindness to me.

 

Why should anyone (specially a Jedi), out of all the people in the galaxy, go check her in particular? Because she's Anakin's mother? The Jedi don't play favorites. Because Anakin is having dreams of her in pain? The Jedi don't act based on assumptions, and definitely not out of fear or attachment.

 

So, when do the Jedi act? And when do they step forward to help someone? And when do they develop an interest in others? At what point does it become Jedi business? And under what circumstances?

And the Jedi do act on assumptions. They assumed that Palpatine was crooked, so they sent Ani to spy on him. And they assumed he wouldn't leave office, so they went in force to make sure that he would.

 

Whenever necessary or called upon by the people they swore to protect. Not based on dreams and fear of loss of one of their own who should train himself to let go of attachment and fear.

No, they acted based on the fact that a lot of things were out of place, that what was happening was not normal and they sent Anakin to spy on him in order to discover the cause.

No, they didn't. I suggest you watch the film again.

 

I have watched the movie. The second they learned Grevious was dead, the Council immediately decided, based on their interpretation of statute, that Palpatine must go immediately. And they were prepared to place him under arrest and take command themselves, if necessary. It wasn't until Ani, whom they didn't trust, brought up the Sith Lord possibility that they changed tracks and made that their focus. I doubt they'd go with four armed Jedi unless they assumed he'd put up a fight, and, again, that was before they assumed he was a Sith Lord.

And if they won't act based on dreams or assumptions, they can at least make a slight effort to check. Otherwise, it's like the Secret Service getting a tip on a possible threat to the President, but deciding, "Well, we're not sure and we have no clear evidence. So, just forget it. No need to bother anyone. Que sera sera."

And, again if Ani's dreams had been about a stranger, would they have taken action sooner, or at all? Does "attachment" automatically mean the Jedi won't get involved, or even pass it along to someone else? In the ANH novelization, Kenobi, trying to convince Luke to go to Alderaan, says, "The suffering of one is the suffering of all." I guess the suffering of someone who's "attached" is an exception.

 

The Jedi only start to suspect Palpatine of corruption around the time of his kidnapping and as Axelrd pointed out, it is based on observations of Palpatine actions in recent months. The final straw is his gaining more power to take control of the Council and appoint Anakin as a member. As well as his amending his earlier promise to reopening negotiations after Dooku's capture or death, and extending it to Grievous. So they decide to use Anakin as a spy. But they didn't act based on a vision of the future through meditation or through slumber. Before finding out who Palpatine really was, they were going to arrest Palpatine if he did not fulfill his earlier promise to open negotiations again. That's why there were four Jedi Masters going.

Why would they assume that these dreams are omens of impending danger? Why couldn't they be dreams of the past? Or of a potential future where he's reunited with her? Why not be just dreams based on his missing her? Why does it automatically mean that she's in danger? That's a giant leap in logic to make.

 

This is "Star Wars"; visions always turn out to be omens of impending danger. And, again, that's why you check to see what they actually are.

 

Except that Obi-wan and Anakin don't think these are visions. Luke sees his friends suffering and in pain. Rey sees the past and the future. Anakin sees Padme dying in childbirth? But Anakin doesn't see her suffering until he's on Naboo. Anakin had a vision before in TPM, that he became a Jedi and freed the slaves? Where's the impending danger there?

 

None of us - none - know that all "dreams" are pre-cognition, although it is certainly possible to argue that since all "dreams" we see on screen are, we should use that as an indicator. However, none of the "dreams" as expressed on screen to Obi-Wan involve any mention of pain or suffering. None. Either Anakin didn't want to say this to Obi-Wan, or they didn't involve suffering. It would be purely speculation how Obi-Wan should/would handle the dreams, or the Council should/would have reacted had they known more..

When Anakin's dreams clearly switched to visions of suffering, he should have (IMHO) contacted Obi-Wan or the Council. Again, speculation on whether they would have dismissed it or had the situation checked on by a 3rd party. There may have been Jedi near Tatooine to handle this while Anakin continued to guard Padme. They might have gotten a message to the Lars to be careful...

Uh, no, they went to see/force Palpatine to give up his war powers as he had promised to do, and if he did not, then they had a back up plan.

As for Luke's trip to Bestin, it could have ended very differently - a partially trained Luke against Vader could easily have ended with Luke dead or Vader's captive, and Han, Leia and Chewbacca no better off. Vader most likely would have held onto his captives awaiting Luke, during which time Luke could have been prepared with a plan to rescue his friends, or some plan drawn up that might have prevented Luke's losing his arm by rushing in in the need to take action now.

 

Re: Luke in TESB, it's far more likely that Vader, realizing that Luke wasn't going to take the bait anytime soon, would've cut his losses and moved on to some other plan. Han was already going to end up in Jabba's clutches no matter what. So, Leia gets a show trial, a guilty verdict, and a bolt to the head. Chewie doesn't even get a trial; he's dead immediately. Threepio's memory is scanned for helpful info, and what's left gets melted down. And it's possible Lando gets hauled away and replaced with a more reliable boss. In any case, I doubt Palpatine would be willing to let his chief enforcer just sit around on Bespin for long time waiting for Luke to maybe show up.

As it happens, I think Luke made the right choice. Yes, Han is hauled away, and Luke gets the heck beaten out of him, physically and psychologically. But, Leia, Chewie and Threepio get a chance to escape (Vader puts them on the back burner and sends them away as soon as Luke shows up), Lando gets a chance to redeem himself, Luke starts to realize that maybe he's not been given the full truth about things, and Vader starts to wonder if, maybe, he needs to reconsider a few things. In the long run, Luke's compassion and loyalty proved the right way to go, and an Alliance victory was the result.

Re: young Ani's prediction, OK, that did turn out favorably. He did become a Jedi, and he did free the slaves, by taking out Palpatine and putting the Empire on course for dissolution, which both Kenobi and Yoda were certain could never happen. But, re: the other visions, I still say the Jedi, particularly Kenobi and Yoda, blew it by not asking a few questions to figure out just what was happening, and by giving some useful advice to Ani in a thoroughly lousy and easily mistaken way. And Palpatine, con artist extraordinaire, took advantage of their failings and got a huge payoff.

As always seems to happen on subjects like this, I think we'll have to agree to differ.

 

Someone tells you they have dreams and *you* (generic) "blow it" by not digging into it?

To be clear, if Anakin's dreams were disturbing, it could be representational of other disturbing things in life (like the "naked in school" dreams) - it could be even be thought to be (by Obi-Wan/others) something recent reminded him of his mother, and it manifested as reoccurring dreams of his mother.

Or, they could have been disturbing, but Anakin didn't relay that to Obi-Wan.

Or, Anakin could have told Obi-Wan he was talking to someone else about the dreams (I agree, unlikely, but not ruled out), so Obi-Wan thought Anakin was being helped.

My point is not to "absolve" Obi-Wan and/or the Council of responsibility, but to point out that any responsibility either might have is not solely on their shoulders. If the movie was clearly showing that at THAT point in time, all of Anakin's dreams were prophetic AND that Obi-Wan knew that and ignored it, you'd have a more persuasive point. However, I don't see this in the film and hence I can't 100% assign responsibility to any one party.

 

Vader would have gone with another plan if Luke didn't show up within a certain time limit. As to the others, Vader would decide if it was worth it or not to turn them over to the Empire, or let them go.

That's just a fortunate set of circumstances. Vader might have let them go, save for Han, he is not after them right now. He could easily put another tracking device on the Falcon in order to find the Alliance. He only changes his mind about letting them go, once Luke shows up and he comes up with a new plan.

What makes you think Obi-wan didn't ask Anakin questions in the first place? As to Yoda, asking questions wasn't important. If Anakin wanted to be more forthcoming, then he would ask questions. As it is, Anakin paints a very vague situation. It could be that he's just seeing a possible future, or something not severe. The point was that Anakin need to train himself to deal with the situation at hand.

 

Um, Vader would've let them go? Two of the Top Ten Most Wanted in the Empire? Really?

"Lord Vader?"
"Yes, my Master."
"Has Skywalker arrived at Cloud City?"
"Not yet, my Master. But I know he'll be here soon!"
"It's been over a month. When will he be there?"
"Soon. I'm sure of it. Any day now. Maybe an other week...or so."
"Look, kid. I've got problems. There's some bunch on Commenor talking about political secession. Workers at SFS are grumbling about pay and bennies. Governor Krell in Sector Six is making noises about resurrecting the Senate. And those &%^$%^# Rebels are still fighting! I need you out there kicking butts and lopping off arms, not sitting around in Cloud City waiting for your brat to show up! Here's the deal: I want that Aleraanian pest on a shuttle bound for Imperial Center in ten minutes; I've already got the judge, jury and firing squad picked out. Then, I want that Wookiee dead and his pelt made into a rug for my den. Then pull out that annoying droid's brain and melt his body down into ashtrays. Then, we'll sit down and come up with a new plan for Junior, one that will actually work. Get it done, or I might decide to make that punk you're secretly training my new assistant. IS THAT CLEAR?"
"Yes, my Master."
"Good. Always remember: you must train yourself to let go of what you fear to lose...and that'll be your head if you don't get your priorities straight!"

Yes, it's off-topic, but I couldn't resist.

 

Let them go and find the Alliance, yeah, he would. He already did that once.