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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Yoda: "Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose." (PLEASE SEE WARNING ON PAGE 14)

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by texjrwillerjr, Feb 7, 2017.

  1. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 27, 1999
    But when Padme arrives at Mustafar, and Ani sees that she's safe, you can see on his face that he thinks, "YES! It worked! It was all worth it!" He starts believing that the Dark Side can, indeed, give him what he wants, and more besides. He's won, and soon no one will be able to stop him make the Universe a better place for everyone...from a certain point of view.

    Then Padme starts to rain on his parade, and we see the real effect of the Dark Side come into view.
     
  2. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    The only rule is that there can only be two Sith at a time. One who has the power and the other who craves it.

    The Jedi prize knowledge as power. Hell, there's even an aphorism about it.

    Right.

    Right. That's why it was a two part test for him. Kill the Jedi in the Temple, including the Younglings to show how far he would go. To prove that he had what it took to be a Sith. When he kills the Separatist Council that's when we see this.

    [​IMG]

    The sign that he's enjoying the kill and has surrendered to his hate. That's why Lucas had it again when he's burning up.
     
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  3. CLee

    CLee Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 18, 2017
    Very interesting. The films could have developed more Anakin's sense that the Senate is holding Palpatine back (his frustration over his own superiors is clear) and thus perpetuating injustices. But it's understandable and intriguing that from having so little power Anakin would especially see the need for power and be frustrated at obstacles.

    It seems the aim of the Sith is to get more power, both in itself and to control other people. The Jedi are opposites of a sort in that they seek to serve rather than rule people but in a sense not so different as they are very powerful albeit using it for different ends and not as an end in itself.
     
  4. Pacified_llama

    Pacified_llama Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 15, 2017
    With all this, you can fall into the trap of over-analysis - I think darth-sinister has the right approach in this case.

    Power exists on both sides of the spectrum - when Palpatine states "The Sith and Jedi are similar in almost every way, including their quest for greater power" - he's speaking the truth, at least on grounds of the power-play. The rest he just messes up to twist Anakin, of course. And yes, for the Jedi, knowledge is power, for the Sith, it is the force of violence, physical domination etc.
     
  5. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    That's odd because Darth-sinister has, in my experience, disputed every and any suggestion that anything Palpatine says about the Jedi wanting or keeping power could be at all true. Along with anything that resembles a reproach on the Jedi or looking askance at their attitude toward their convictions or how they disseminate them and the way they abide by them.
     
  6. Pacified_llama

    Pacified_llama Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 15, 2017
    Oh, apologies. It appears I have misinterpreted myself - my meaning was "You can over-analyze, however, in this case I support...etc.."

    Without seeking to judge others' opinions - I believe Darth-sinister's narrative is based off of a strong adherence to Lucas' own words. And moreover, I think it is largely a case that Palpatine is presented in a highly negative light, which casts doubt on the validity of his claims.

    However, there are of course great flaws in the Jedi as they are portrayed in the PT, as you well describe. The issue is that the discussion hasn't really met a middle ground as far as I am concerned. Both groups are responsible for the conflict - conflict requires two sides, my definition, after all. Whether that be two abstract sides to one's internal conflict, or two, physical sides in a war. Notwithstanding, focus too much on the Jedi's methodology can undermine the Good vs Evil presentation in the PT - the easiest solution to this difficulty is keeping in mind the context of the entire saga, episodes 1-6 and beyond.
     
  7. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Yes I suspect the reason that we cannot consider any flaws in the Jedi culture or as an institution is that George Lucas hasn't told us to do that. And since Palpatine is the villain we cannot even begin to contemplate the truth mixed in with his deceit. Till George says otherwise.

    So some of us are marooned on the middle ground until George tells the rest to consider that such a thing even exists.
     
  8. Pacified_llama

    Pacified_llama Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 15, 2017
    Some people just prefer to see things in black and white. In any case, my meaning is that the author's intent can sometimes brush against a viewer's interpretation. So sometimes it's best to frame questions carefully, or maintain some sort of level playing field. That's all.

    I think the themes we are discussing are very closely associated with what one might call the "overall message" of SW. And people either like to discuss that or they don't.
    One can understand the importance people place on Lucas for questions like these, because it is so interpretative, and people want to link up the images and ideas on the screen and translate them into an overall philosophy. The writer can sometimes do that - offer a sense of certainty.

    I for one prefer to comment outside of authorial intent because, as you rightly say, it is inherently restrictive, but nonetheless I do appreciate the insight that Lucas can bring to the discussion through means of other members' thoughts etc.

    Of course, Lucas will become diminishingly significant as the ST expands and so forth. We aren't far enough down the road with the new canon to try and tie all these themes up into a cohesive idea - but I do believe that an overall, underpinning moral is to be found. It's not just a series of fragmented thoughts and ideas.
     
  9. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001

    Actually, you're both correct to a degree. The Jedi do prize knowledge as power, which is about gaining a greater understanding of the Force. While the Sith prize about is the power to control and dominate. What Palpatine tries to do with Anakin is sway him with the idea that the Jedi are keeping knowledge from him, which would make him all powerful and thus able to save Padme from dying. The Jedi do not forbid knowledge of the Force, but what they do forbid is their own using the dark side in order to become all powerful. They will not teach their own to use the dark side in order to become all powerful. Likewise, when a Jedi becomes one with the Force, they can pass on their knowledge of the Jedi Arts to future Jedi, or just plain knowledge.
     
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  10. Pacified_llama

    Pacified_llama Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 15, 2017
    The Jedi assume that the ambition to become "all powerful" is inherently corrupting. Which the Sith prove to be true. But the state of "all powerful" isn't itself the thing to be avoided - it is merely the dark sided attitudes that have the propensity to derive from it.
    And therefore, 'all-powerful' for a Jedi is obtained, paradoxically, by a surrendering of oneself to the Force, and hence sharing the greatest power through an attainment of 'oneness'.

    The Sith can never become all powerful because they can never escape the Force's will - it is much like striving to be a God, it is theologically impossible.
     
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  11. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    [​IMG]

    The only similarities are that they both use lightsabers and the Force. Hell the lightsabers aren't even the same colour!
     
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  12. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    ^ Hells, even Anakin said it.

    “The Sith rely on their passion for their strength; they think inward; only about themselves.” (...) “The Jedi are selfless, they only care about others.”
     
  13. Pacified_llama

    Pacified_llama Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 15, 2017
    Those are fair points.

    But I'm talking about power - how both groups, Jedi and Sith, pursue it. Power alone is not inherently Sith.

    Argh, I do dislike reducing Force users to "Lightsabers and Force powers" - that's so simplistic. SW is capable of being so much more than that.
     
  14. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Yes, but it’s how they USE that power that makes the difference.

    In other words, using the Force to help the weak and innocent is something the Jedi would do.

    Using the Force to impose terror on others and get them to kneel in submission is something the Sith would do.

    One group wants the power to help others. The other wants the power to enslave/kill/oppress others.
     
  15. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Okay but the "power" that the Jedi want to acheive is enlightenment and transcending death by letting go of all worldly ambitions. The "power" the Sith want to achieve is ruling the galaxy in eternity with everyone as their slaves because they are clinging to unnaturally long life. That's as similar as breaking it down to they both breathe air.
     
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  16. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    They're not even similar in how they pursue it. They're not similar in their "quest for greater power", and they're nowhere near "similar in almost every way". There's no real truth there, it's pseudo-woke nonsense presented by the father of all lies. Palpatine is presenting lies as truth specifically to confuse and manipulate Anakin. It always baffles me when fans fall for it.
     
  17. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    It's even one of the few times that Anakin outright calls bull$#!@ on Palpatine. If even someone that blind can see it for what it is, then the audience should be able to as well.
     
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  18. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    That depends on your point of view.

    And Anakin may be quick to dispute Palpatine. But he's arguably even quicker to adopt his point of view.
     
  19. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Once he is an accomplice to the murder of Mace Windu and Palpatine automatically becomes his only ally.
     
  20. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011

    But Anakin is clearly just reciting something he's been taught. He's not totally sure it's true.
     
  21. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    In the scene he seems quite sure. It's up to interpretation, but that's where he stops Palpatines rant.
     
  22. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Actually, he's not so sure. That's why the conversation stops for a moment and we see him contemplate what he was just told. Some of the actions of the Council are bothering him and what Palpatine says does sound right. He even says that his faith in them has been shaken. This worsens with the next Council meeting where Obi-wan is sent to deal with Grievous, rather than sending Anakin.
     
  23. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    That's not what I see at all. He corrects Palpatine immediately and then turns away almost angrily, he squirms a bit and seems uncomfortable that Palpatine is saying such degrading things about the Jedi. The only suspicious thing at the moment, is that when referring to the Jedi he says "they" instead of "we." This is a sign that he has already begun to consider himself as something more or other than a Jedi.
     
  24. theraphos

    theraphos Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    May 20, 2016
    Not just fall for it, but eagerly eat it up.
     
  25. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Palpatine lies with the truth. The things he says have some truth to them, but he deliberately withholds important context.

    It's true that the Jedi aren't perfect. It's true that they sometimes fear losing what they have. It's true that they sometimes feel powerless and wish that they had more. But these things are not the whole truth, and it doesn't make the Jedi truly equivalent to the Sith.
     
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