Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by TrueJedi, Jun 6, 2006.
Hey, that would be just like Return of the King!
"The dead do not suffer the Living Force" - Mace
"Fulfilled would be your oaths. Say what you?" - Yoda
Ha. I always wondered how they would do that scene in RoTK. I really wasn't a big fan of that angle in the books. It was even stranger on screen.
I agree that Anakin would have to land the killing blow on Sidious but the most relevant part for me would be the cyclical rematch and return of Yoda to the Jedi Temple.
There are too many recreations in this movie as it is. It was right that Yoda died, putting the emphasis on Luke to be the saviour. If there was a re-match between Sids and Yoda it would take away the excitment of their duel in ROTS
I had no idea that Lucas thought of it and I am so glad he didn't do it as if we saw Yoda fight and if Yoda died at the hand of the Emperor it would be pointless for him to face Palpitine. If Yoda defeats Palpitine then Vader doesn't get redemption and that is SO IMPORTANT.
But I must correct about what caused the Jedi to fail in ROTS. It certainly wasn't that they fought, but that they were too cocky. Self Defense isn't violence.
Butt Edit: No, you can't make comments like that.
Funny, i agree with Flames.
If the Jedi of the PT had stuck to what Qui-Gon told Padme in TPM the Jedi order might have survived the clone wars:
"i can only protect you, i can't fight a war for you."
The Jedi did exactly that, and they were slaughtered for it at every turn.
Butt Edit: Edited quote.
Even if the Jedi hadn't fought in the Clone Wars, they will still be slaughtered because they'll be giving Palpatine an excuse to declare them traitors and have the Republic approve of his Order 66 massacre. Flames mentioned that the Dark Side cannot be defeated through violence, well it cannot be stopped just by doing nothing because you'll end up exactly like what the Emperor did to Luke when he refused to join him.
The violence will never end unless you fight back.
Well, Luke actually succeeded by refusing to fight, so.... I'm right.
The Sith are dead
i wasn't advocating them doing nothing.
Perhaps the best move would have been for them to do something completely different, maybe even leave the space controlled by the republic and isolate themselves as an extreme example of doing something else.
I don't think that running would have been a good idea, i don't think the jedi had any "good" options, but they did make a huge mistake.
Yoda started the Clone Wars when he invaded Geonosis, could that war have been avoided?
The jedi did not have to start and lead it however, and i do not think that at that time Sidious would have had the political clout to declair them traitors just for not leading the battlefield charge.
I cannot offer you a good alternative to what the Jedi did, i don't think there was one, but my point wasn't what they should have done.
My point was what they did do, they fought a war for the republic.
This is 180 degrees from what Qui-Gon told Padme, and Naboo did have security forces he could have led so there is something of a compairison.
The jedi did not survive the war as an order.
That was all i was saying.
It would have been truly horrible to mess up ROTJ by having Yoda flick flack around the Deathstar throneroom fighting Palpatine and helping Luke. It would be wrong in so many ways.
Luke almost died in the process and if Vader hadn't given up the Dark Side to save Luke, then that would've been the complete end of the Jedi Order.
The Jedi didn't have any choice because they are the defenders of peace and justice in the galaxy and in order for them to live up to that title, they have to end a conflict before it escalates which means they had to fight in the Clone Wars. They cannot refuse to fight in the war because they'll being giving all the Senators the assumption that the Jedi are siding with the Seperatists which is all the political clout Palpatine needed to declare them traitors. Anakin accused Padme of the same thing when she suggested that the Republic is becoming "the very evil they were fighting against" and he felt that the Jedi were committing treason when Obi-wan told him that they wanted Anakin to spy on Palpatine.
To quote the movie "Top Gun", either you follow orders or you are history.
Yes, but Luke didn't die. He succeeded because he renounced the dark side and relied on the compassion of both himself and his father. The dark side couldn't be defeated any other way. Luke had to be compassionate to bring out the compassion in his father, because Anakin had to commit the ultimate act of compassion - self-sacrifice - to defeat the dark side.
If we use darkness to defeat darkness, darkness will prevail.
Darkness is not the answer
If we don't use darkness, we become sitting ducks such as what Luke became when the Emperor started frying his circuits.
Darkness will still prevail.
Maybe, but Luke didn't stand a chance against Palpatine by attackig him. The only chance he had was if he succeeded in appealing to Anakin. Anakin was the only one who had any chance of defeating Palpatine.
Yoda vs. Sidious re-match?
**reaches for TrueJedi's ban button**
Do it, Stryphe, do it!
The GFFA should be thankful that you were not in Luke's position
Luke succeeded because he had faith in his father's goodness. Without faith, there's no hope. Without hope, there's no life. Luke simply had to do what he did. It was a win-all/lose-all situation.
Luke made the right choice
PMT, didn't you say you were tired of the anti-hero in a Saga thread? Now you advokate using darkness, or do I misunderstand you?
Yoda fighting Sidious? What purpose would that serve other than ruining a triumphant moment for both Anakin and Luke?
I wouldn't mind Yoda and Sidious fighting at some point between episode III and IV but in the final battle of VI? No. That wasn't Yoda's fight, not to mention he is dead by that point. If you meant scratch the death scene and have him tag along with Luke, how would that work? He would go to Endor? Then he would be captured with Luke? Too much would have to be changed and it would mess up that scene. It was a pivotal moment for Luke, because he was alone and fighting against Vader and the Emperor. If Yoda was with him, it wouldn't seem so...overwhelming for Luke.
Now that I think about it, I believe that Yoda would've fought Vader in TESB if Lucas would've had him fight. It would've been kind of like the end of AOTC, where Yoda comes in to save the day after the hero has failed due to his rash behavior.
But instead of Yoda forcing Vader to flee, we got Luke escaping Vader's grasp by falling down a deep chasm.
So ROTJ would still have been what it is. Luke needs to be left alone in the Saga's climax, because that's an important part of the hero's journey. He must stand on his own legs in the end and make his own decisions.
Of course, Luke could've confronted Vader at Endor while Yoda took care of Palpatine on Coruscant. Like The Duels in ROTS. Then Anakin would not be the one to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force, though, so the concept of the Chosen One would have to be dropped.
Unless Palpatine kills Yoda and Vader brings Luke back to Coruscant, of course. A story can be told in many ways.
Ways - there are many
Wow, interesting thoughts.
Only, would Anakin have fallen off the ledge in front of the hangar on Geonosis, then?
I'm just saying how can a person accomplish anything if they do nothing? Luke was being tortured mercilessly by the Emperor's lighting and I know that his unconditional faith in his father helped him destroy the Sith but if Luke's faith in him had failed, Luke would have to eventually retrieve his lightsaber and vanquish the Emperor himself.
Luke wouldn't turn to the Dark Side if it happened because he acted out of self-defense like Obi-wan did when he killed Darth Maul.
and how about that Ghandi guy? Whatever did he accomplish by non violence? Nothing... no wait. He did actually accomplish something by non violence. He managed to defeat the largest empireknown to man, liberated India and became the hero of untold millions including me.
I'm just saying how can a person accomplish anything if they do nothing?
If one is doing what is right, is that nothing?
Butt Edit: No.
I think Yoda had to die early no matter what. Had he lived, Luke would have finished his training and been strong enough to counter Palpatines lightning.
I think it would be sweet if Vader and not thrown the Emperor into the shaft, but instead cut down the Emperor and save his son. As Palpatine died the spirits of Yoda, Obi-wan, Qui-gon, Dooku, and many other Jedi would smarm him and take him away like in the movie 'Ghost'. Just an idea I got while reading this thread.