PT Yoda was much stronger than Mace Windu theory.

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Jonathan Stromstad, Apr 29, 2013.

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  1. Jonathan Stromstad Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2013
    Hey guys, I've been discussing this with a friend now and we cannot agree. I'd like to ask the question here.

    In the second movie count Dooku shoots lightning at Obi-Wan who easily deflects it using his lightsaber
    "https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BvnwLLXHabg#t=29s"

    later on in the same movie Yoda deflects lightning from Dooku using his bare hands, something that takes a moderate amount of effort on Yodas part;
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BvnwLLXHabg#t=201s

    From this we can conlude that deflecting lightning with a lightsaber is MUCH easier than deflecting it with your bare hands.

    In the third movie (ROTS) Palpatine shoots force lightning at Mace Windu, he deflects it using his lightsaber but it takes a CONSIDERABLE amount of effort:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Pk4AiCnMqpg#t=162s

    Later on Yoda fights Palpatine. And pushes his force lightning back using his bare hands;
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=S5SkNrWSk5M#t=330s

    Force lightning is much harder to deflect using hands than with a saber. Mace Windu struggles against Palpatine with a saber whereas Yoda overpowers him using his bare hands.

    Conclusion: Yoda is much much more powerful.

    How am I wrong?
  2. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    So much to say to this post!!

    That's a pretty big stance to take on the subject considering it's only one power. Mace was able to defeat Palpatine in single combat where Yoda was not..what about that?

    In AOTC Anakin refers to Obi-Wan as "wise as Master Yoda and as powerful as Master Windu." Which implies that the Jedi associate Yoda with wisdom and Mace Windu with power. It's possible that Yoda's wisdom grants him abilities that Mace Windu has little to no interest in, but may excel at even more if he utilized them.

    Yoda/Obi-Wan deflected Force lightning from Count Dooku, who seemed to be testing the waters and fooling around with them to gauge their power. Mace Windu faced a full frontal assault of lightning from Sidious, arguably the most powerful Sith Lord of all time. I'm sure Sidious' blast would have knocked Obi-Wan back as well.

    Lastly Yoda is around 900 years old. He comes from an era where the Sith/Dark Jedi were a very real threat. It's possible that techniques that Yoda learned, such as how to repel sith lightning, became so unnecessary and archaic that the Jedi simply stopped teaching it over the years. That would explain why Yoda can use it but is so fatigued by it. It is a power he hasn't practiced in centuries and is therefore difficult for him to perform.
    Prodigy_Knight likes this.
  3. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    Insert the standard argument here that Palpatine was largely pulling his punches with Mace, simply because if Mace didn't look like he could kill Palpatine, Anakin would not have intervened.
  4. Lord Chazza Force Ghost

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    Jan 4, 2013
    star 4
  5. Darth Dominikkus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2013
    star 3
    Dooku and Palpatine are both at very different levels in their dark ways. Dooku was an apprentice to Palpatine. He is powerful, but he still was not as powerful as Palpatine. His lightning could easily be a lot weaker than Palpatine's lightning. Now, that may be why Obi-Wan doesn't struggle much with Dooku's lightning. When it comes to Yoda and Dooku, I'd say it would be considerably harder to use your bare hands to deflect anything. Yoda is using the force to absorb the lightning into his palms, whereas Obi-Wan used a lightsaber where was an impenetrable blade in front of him to deflect it for him.

    Palpatine is stronger than Dooku, would you agree? Sidious>Dooku.
    Though Mace had a lightsaber, I believe the power and the force coming with Palpatine's lightning in ROTS was a lot stronger than what Dooku would have given. He was exerting all of his energy into that lightning, he had nothing left. This was also the climax of ROTS, so more drama was probably added to the scene than need be to show importance with Anakin's turn. When Yoda and Sidious dueled and lightning was used, Yoda struggled as well, however, he used it bare hands, not a lightsaber. Above I said that it would probably be easier to use a lightsaber seeing as you have a force that is strong in front of you to do the work for you, besides the fact that you have to push. Again, Yoda was absorbing the lightning, which I would believe takes a lot more effort and power to do.

    Deflecting and absorbing are two completely different things that happen with lightning in Star Wars. Absorbing the lightning with your palms, I would believe, takes a lot more power and effort than deflecting lightning with a lightsaber.
  6. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Or that Obi-Wan is considered to be as powerful as Windu yet not as powerful as Yoda.
  7. Revenge of the Dak Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2012
    star 1
    Which sounds about right to me.

    I really didn't buy the whole "I can't hold him, I'm weak" from Palps.
    Dredalus likes this.
  8. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    Yoda is stronger in the force than Mace, but Windu has plenty of force strength as well as physical strength. That is why he defeated Palps and Yoda had to run and go into exile.
    Teaviex Cue likes this.
  9. Teaviex Cue Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2012
    Yoda is stronger in the force, but Mace is a better swordsman.
  10. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    Mace is stronger in the kung fu.
    Robimus and rumsmuggler like this.
  11. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    I agree with the first part, the second part is debatable.
    Sitara likes this.
  12. Darth Dnej Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2013
    star 1
    I agree, or at the very least Mace is better at dueling opponents with lightsabers than Yoda is.
    Teaviex Cue likes this.
  13. Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host

    Game Host
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    Mar 3, 2013
    star 4
    It's clear in the films that Yoda is the strongest Jedi in terms of power in the Force. That makes sense, given his age and copious amounts of experience. He's the only Jedi shown absorbing and deflecting Force lightning bare-handed in the films.

    However, Mace does have a few advantages in lightsaber duels that Yoda lacks; greater height and reach, being able to wield a standard-length lightsaber (Yoda wields a shoto), and mastery of the Vaapad technique, which allows Mace to channel his inner darkness and the darkness of his opponent, in order to augment his attacks. Thus it makes sense that he would be able to duel Sidious to a standstill, or even briefly get the upper hand (whether or not Sidious allowed him to prolong the duel for Anakin's benefit is a matter of debate). Thus, Mace is probably better suited to fighting and potentially defeating an opponent like Sidious as opposed to Yoda in lightsaber combat.
  14. EMPEROR_WINDU Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2002
    star 5
    Based on what we've seen on-screen it's debatable whether Yoda is more powerful with the Force. It's not debatable on who is the more skilled lightsaber combatant (Mace). Again, this is taking only the films into account. Getting into the EU and things get fuzzier on both accounts IMO.
    Last edited by EMPEROR_WINDU, Apr 30, 2013
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  15. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
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    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    Seems pretty straight forward to me; Yoda is stronger in the Force than Mace. Also, Palpatine's Force lightning is much stronger than Dooku's Force lightning.
  16. Darth Dominikkus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2013
    star 3
    This I agree with.
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  17. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    But we know for a fact that he isn't as powerful as Yoda so that makes little sense.
  18. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Not being as powerful as Yoda makes little sense because we know he isn't as powerful as Yoda? :confused:
    Sitara likes this.
  19. Joe Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2012
    star 6
    Yoda was the measure of Jedi power - just look at how Qui-Gon instantly compared Anakin's midichlorians to Yoda's. Mace is just looser and more aggressive, and thus his power is more obvious
    rumsmuggler likes this.
  20. Skelter Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 1
    The look, and the sound of Sidiuous lightning is beyond anything Dooku ever used. You can tell, by just looking at it, that Palpatine's lighting was a lot harder to counteract than Dooku's. Windu is second to Yoda, but I believe that his Vaapad fighting style gives him the edge when fighting pissed off sith lords that are rotting with dark side energy. His, Plus, who is to say that Windu wouldn't have been able to block the lighting had Anakin not cut off his hand? We've seen Obi-Wan, a much weaker Jedi deflect blaster bolts with his hands on the clone wars...

    But yes, I've always seen Yoda as the stronger Jedi, with Mace being more dangerous with a sword, and his Vaapad against Sith Lords/Dark Jedis
  21. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Um, ya.
  22. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Agreed. I think the way Obi-Wan is amazed that Anakin has a higher midichlorian count than Yoda suggests that Yoda has the highest on record. So while Yoda may have more Force potential or "power", it seems to me that Windu is the deadlier opponent.
    rumsmuggler likes this.
  23. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    If we count the bodies, Yoda is far more deadly on screen and he does it with Jedi swag. Mace chops one head, Yoda takes two. Windu needs a saber to block lightning, Minch uses his paws. Mace flourishes his weapon all fancy like in Sid's office, Yoda force chucks his into the chest his enemy. Mace takes four homies to face off with the Chancellor, Yoda goes alone. That right there, told me all needed to know about who was more powerful.
    Sitara, Circular_Logic and Dredalus like this.
  24. GGrievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    Take out Mace and put Yoda in this situation:

    [IMG]
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  25. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 3
    I don't think it's very easy to say whether Yoda or Mace is a better duelist because there's the big question about whether Palpatine is going full out against Mace. I could go into my impression of the two duels, though it seems to me he’s going all out against Yoda, but not Mace, but that’s more subjective, so I want to focus on 2 areas more open to direct comparison: 1) Yoda's ability to repel Force lightning and Mace's inability to do this AND 2) Palpatine’s ability to disarm Yoda with Force lightning and his APPARENT (and I emphasize apparent) inability to disarm Mace.

    As has been pointed out above,
    Yoda shows a power no other Jedi ever demonstrates. He is able to repel Force lightning with his bare hands alone. He easily does this against Dooku, and he does so against Palpatine as well, though with much greater difficulty. Yet even though he has this power, Yoda is not able to prevent Palpatine from disarming him when he strikes him with a bolt at full force. It is true that Yoda is holding the saber in one hand when he loses it, but look closely at the Mace scene. Mace is too the first instant Palpatine blasts him. Mace only grabs the hilt with his other hand about a second after Palpatine begins his lightning attack, a time when the saber had already flown far away from Yoda’s hand in Palpatine’s duel with Yoda. (And notice the blast that Palpatine chooses to use to disarm Yoda. It’s a single thick, very strong lightning bolt-like strike, while the lightning that Palpatine shoots at Mace is wide and diffuse. The lightning used to disarm Yoda even makes a louder more intense sound.) It just doesn’t follow that Palpatine cannot disarm Mace with a full force blast of lightning when he can disarm Yoda, so you have to conclude Palpatine isn’t going full out with his Force lightning.


    Lucas also backs up this interpretation: But this part where he, he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later, 'cause this is, it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here, and you can see now, that it's very clear that he's, he, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers.

    And, of course, it pretty clear he is faking it because the instant Mace is disarmed by Anakin, Palpatine once more attacks Mace with his lighning full force.

    Though some argue that Mace is a better duelist than Yoda, but this doesn't matter when it comes to getting disarmed. It’s not as if being a worse duelist would make Yoda’s grip on his light saber weaker than Mace’s. Yoda’s grip would correlate directly to his power in the Force, so it should be stronger. (As Yoda says: “Judge me by my size do you?”) Yoda apparently has the highest midichlorian count among the Jedi (apart from Anakin), plus he is clearly in touch with the Force as much as any Jedi is, so it seems logical to conclude that Yoda’s grip on his light saber exceeds Mace’s, since this physical attribute would be enhanced directly related to his strength in the Force, and supposing otherwise would be “judging him by his size.” So what follows must be true. If Palpatine can disarm Yoda, then he should be able to disarm Mace if he were really going all out. So, you have to assume Palpatine wasn't.
    (For whatever this is worth, in an earlier version of the scene, GL had Mace trying to use his hands to block Palpatine's Force lightning attack after being disarmed, but he was not powerful enough, and Palpatine still fried him.)

    So, by considering what I have just said and connecting it to the earlier posts in this thread, any differences between Mace blocking Force lightning with his saber and Yoda blocking it with his hands are clarified. Mace cannot really block Palpatine's Force lightning with his saber (at least when holding it with one hand). Mace only seems to be able because Palpatine is faking weakness and not going all out. Yoda is no different in this respect. It is clear that Yoda also cannot block it with his saber when holding it with one hand since Palpatine does disarm him.

    On the other hand, Yoda can block his Force lightning with his hands. Since Yoda has a higher midichlorian count and more years of training than Mace and since Yoda is just barely able to push Palpatine's lightning back to point that that they reach an impasse, it is also safe to assume that Mace cannot block Palpatine's lightning with is bare hands. If we consider the earlier version of the scene in which Mace was unable to block the lightning, then this shows what we have already arrived at logically. So, in respect to these Force powers, Yoda seems superior.

    In regards to dueling, I don't think we can conclude whether Yoda or Mace is better from the films (though the EU only says Mace is sometimes able to fight Yoda to a draw). I would say it does seem highly coincidental that Palpatine loses his saber at just the perfect time to make it seem like he like he is helpless just as Anakin enters the room and that this serves his purposes to a T, but even if the timing in this scene does strongly suggest Palpatine wasn't going all out against Mace, that does not mean that Mace is a worse duelist than Yoda. Since the only evidence we might have is their competency against the same opponent and since we simply have no idea how Mace would fare against Palpatine if he were going all out (and or if he is), we really have no way to compare Yoda's and Mace's skills as duelists.
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