Yoda's knowledge of the darkside

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Obi-WanLeroy, Jan 24, 2003.

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  1. Master Salty Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 1999
    star 6
    Do you think Yoda has known this all along? If so, that could explain why he seems afraid of Anakin in TPM. It's almost like he can see the destruction of his friends, but refuses to stop it because he obeys the Force.
  2. RKMeibalane Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 2
    Yoda may have known something. It's difficult to say. Perhaps he became aware of certain "undercurrents" in the Force during his time on Degobah. I would image he spent a great deal of time meditating about various events- past, present, and future.

    I think his fear or uneasiness about Anakin during the PT may have been due to the fact that he still lacked insight into what the Force's plan for the galaxy was. It's possible that he eventually learned more about the Force, and then became more confident about the future as time passed.

    On the other hand, even if he knew that things would turn out well eventually, he may have been concerned about how things would happen. Yoda was always concerned about other living beings. No one likes to see death occur, even if it is for the greater good of the universe.
  3. Master Salty Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 1999
    star 6
    If he did know and chose not to do anything about it due to the will of the Force, that's a hell of a thing to have to live with. I think Yoda became more and more aware of the Dark Side as TPM and AOTC progressed. It will interesting to see his actions in E3.
  4. RKMeibalane Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 2
    I agree. If Yoda did have knowledge about the future, then I think that puts a new spin on some of the choices he makes during the PT and OT.

    The first example that comes to mind is his decision to go to Degobah. Maybe his decision involved more than just avoiding the Jedi Purge. Maybe he was punishing himself. I can't imagine what he must have been feeling. Let's not forget that Yoda lived roughly nine hundred years. During his life, he saw the good times of the Jedi Order, but he also witnessed its downfall at the hands of the Sith.

    If he knew this was going to happen and did nothing, his guilt must have been enormous. It's no wonder he appears sad in OT. Maybe his despair was deeper than we thought.
  5. Master Salty Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 1999
    star 6
    Very true. Maybe time considering the PT era events while on Dagobah wore out the little Master.
  6. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "considering the PT era events while on Dagobah wore out the little Master." LOL :)

    Okay, Salty, get out your coke and Cheez-its. This is gonna take some time!

    " Yoda is by no means weaker than Palpatine."
    I'm not aware that that implication was made. I will say that Yoda's powers have been less effective than they normally are. The fact that Yoda constantly complains of not being able to see the future implies that he is experiencing technical difficulties. :)

    "Palpatine never suspects that Darth Vader will betray him."
    That's because the thought never enters Darth's mind, until Luke comes along. I love the look on Darth's face when Luke says "then my father is truly dead." At most, Vader starts feeling a pang of regret, but it's not until muuuuch later, when he sees his child being destroyed, that Vader finally decides "I'm gonna get you, Sucka!" Palpatine is so consumed with Luke, that he completely ignores Vader.

    That being said, Palpatine's numerous "I have forseen it" claims can all be a load of crock. He probably had a good idea about what was going to happen, but not as specific as he'd like Vader and Luke to believe. In fact, I could argue that Yoda's difficulties may not lie in the fact that he's been made weaker, but that the myriad possibilities brought about by the emerging Dark Side makes it difficult to pin down a "straight answer."

    So now, here's your reversal of fortune. Palpatine is now having difficulties pin-pointing the future, due to the emergence of the Light-side. He's just not as honest about it as Yoda was. Yoda decided to keep this fact hidden from the Senate, so that he would not look weak to their enemies in the Senate, just as Palpatine would keep this fact secret from the Rebellion and Vader (can't trust a Sith now, can ya?) When Vader gives news of the rebel group on Endor's moon (leave me alone on that, Salty!), Palpatine gives a quick "Yes, I know." Palps is starting to lose it, but he covers it well.

    Here's a good case in point. Palp's most specifically accurate prediction in the OT (that we have defintive proof of) is that Luke will destroy him. This turns out to be true, but Palps doesn't have the details necessary to inform him that it would be through Vader. Palps had enough clarity to see his death, but not the means of it (or, perhaps having seen Vader's involvement amongst the myriad other possibilities, chose to ignore such an outcome as poppycock.)

    Salty, I also believe that Anakin was created to destroy the Sith (just as Jesus was "created" to rid the world of its sins -- (example only, I don't presume to preach.) This is why I chuckle when people say that "Balance of the Force" is when the Jedi are wiped out. While I do believe the Jedi were getting away from their mandate, I don't think what they were doing was anywhere as evil as what Palpatine was doing. The "Force" could have found a less lethal means of bringing them back to the Light side. You have to remember that Anakin was "born" while Palpatine was making his run for power! It wasn't the looooong series of events over thousands of years in the Jedi order that mandated the need for Anakin, but the (relatively) quick and recent emergence of the Sith order, which was in the process of carving out a piece of the universe for itself!

    Remember, Maul was chewing at the bit to get his hands on the Jedi, because the Sith had done nothing for a thousand years. Now, all of a sudden, when Palpatine starts planning for a total takeover, Anakin is suddenly born (actually, Palps was planning this stuff prior to Anakin being born, since he's 10 in TPM. It would be interesting to know if Anakin's birth coincided with Palpatine replacing his Sith Master and taking on Darth Maul as an apprentice. I would hope that some of Palp's history is made known in Ep.III.) The odds of Palpatine's rise and Anakin's birth occuring so close together are extremely low, unle
  7. Master Salty Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 1999
    star 6
    It would be interesting to see some of Palpy's history explained in connection with Shmi's pregnancy and Anakin's birth. I don't think it was a coincidence either. I think Yoda began to see the future more clearly as time progressed.
  8. Krash RSA Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2000
    star 5
    I think the defense against the "force lightning is something Yoda would have taught Luke...excet that Luke had to go a save his friends (lack of time).

    Add to that, remember Luke and Obi-Wan's conversation:
    Luke: "I feel the Force!"
    Obi-Wan: "But you cannot control it."

    Luke hadn't mastered all the basic skills of a jedi, which means he couldn't be ready to handle something like "Force-Lightning"
  9. RKMeibalane Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 2
    Be sure to make it clear that Vader wasn't aware of his reason for being "placed" there. Think of "The Matrix". There's a difference between walking the path, and knowing the path. Neo was able to do what he needed to do without thinking about it! If Anakin went around saying "I'm the Chosen One! I'm gonna bring Balance! I'm gonna kill Palpatine!" then there's no way in hell that Palps would ever even allow Anakin to live, much less get anywhere near him. Dooku would have finished him off in AOTC, rather than simply leaving him limbless. Anakin was not to have known his fate, until it came time to meet it!

    You are correct. I should have explained my point, but you have done a nice job of articulating the point that I wanted to convey.

    Vader was not aware of his part in this scenario, at least not until he saw Luke writhing in pain on the floor. But I think my theory makes sense. The best place to hide something is in plain sight. Vader was always near Palpatine, but he knew nothing his destiny. He believed he would live out his life as Palpatine's servant, evevntually suceeding him as emperor. That didn't happen, of course, and the galaxy was better off as a result.

    The more I think about it, the less respect I have for Palpatine's abilities. He was extremely powerful, but I don't think he was as powerful as he thought he was. It would have been interesting to compare his midi-chlorian count to Yoda's and Anakin's, just to get an idea of what his potential was.

    Palpatine wasn't able to sense subtle changes in Vader's personality after he discovered Luke's existence. He also wasn't able to detect Luke's arrival on Endor, but Vader was. He also had no idea that Vader would betray him, which leads me to believe that his ability to see the future isn't as advanced as he would have us believe.
  10. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "I think Yoda began to see the future more clearly as time progressed."
    That depends on which of my theories you subscribe to

    1) Too many possibilities- As we get closer to the big event, there are fewer possibilties to take place. Of course, by this time, Yoda realizes too late what is happening, and thus is unable to stop Palpatine.
    2) Influenced by Dark Side- If this were the case, then Yoda's ability would be getting progressively worse, as Palpatine becomes more powerful. Of course, there's a limit to this also (Just as there's a limit to Palpatine's power) Even when this point is reached, it's still too late for Yoda to do anything.

    "Luke had to go a save his friends (lack of time). "
    In ESB, yes, though Luke wasn't going to face the Emperor at that time. Yoda implores Luke not to go, at the risk of his own life. Even Kenobi fears that Luke won't survive.

    In ROTJ, Yoda tells Luke that he's ready to face Vader and the Emperor, yet does not tell him about the lightning!

    Why would Yoda not tell Luke, unless...
    1) Yoda didn't know about it (my belief)
    2) Yoda does know about it, but also knows something about the Prophecy, and as such, give only a general warning about the Emperor. This would imply that Yoda lied when he said Luke was ready. Why would Yoda hold Luke back in ESB (when he's not ready), but just turn him loose in ROTJ without this little bit of knowledge to help prepare him? It doesn't make sense.

    All of Luke's training concerns his encounter with Vader, because Yoda obviously knows what Vader is capable of. Yoda can only guess as to the full extent of The Emperor's powers. Hes knows Palps is powerful, and that he turned Anakin, but Yoda doesn't know how! This would explain why Yoda and all the other Jedi couldn't defeat Palpatine themselves. They were never in any position to do so (rounded up by clonetroopers). Palpatine's no dummy, and is not going to put himself in a position where the Jedi can get him. This is why he eliminates the Jedi in the first place!

    Besides, all Kenobi did was hold up his lightsaber! How difficult is that? It seemed like an easy counter to me.

    So, no comment on my essay? ?[face_plain] If you don't say something, I'll write even more!!! [face_laugh]
  11. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "The best place to hide something is in plain sight."
    Fantastic Point! Yo-da man! :D


    " The more I think about it, the less respect I have for Palpatine's abilities. He was extremely powerful, but I don't think he was as powerful as he thought he was. It would have been interesting to compare his midi-chlorian count to Yoda's and Anakin's, just to get an idea of what his potential was. "
    Exactly. He did have powers, and used them extremely well. Remember, David defeated Goliath despite being physically outmatched. He used cunning over brawn. Palpatine used the clones and Vader to make up for this lack. (yes, I know....sorry if I offend. There's simply a lot of great analogies in the Bible)
  12. Master Salty Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 1999
    star 6
    I don't necessarily subscribe to either theory. I think Yoda was wise enough to figure it out and not argue with the will of the Force. I don't think Anakin had any clue of his importance, and I don't think Palpy was powerful physically, but he is clearly a great puppet master.
  13. RKMeibalane Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 2
    I think many of our questions will be answered in Episode III. It will be interesting to see how the Jedi learn of Palpatine's true identity, and it will be interesting to see what methods are used to turn Anakin to the Dark Side.

    Yoda obviously has a great deal of knowledge about the Force, so it is reasonable that he knew of Force lightning. However, he may not have been able to tell Luke, for any number of reasons. It may be that he so weak at the time of his death that he did not have the strength to say anything detailed about Palpatine's capablities. I think that time he spent with Luke was for the purposes of informing him that his traning was complete, that Vader was his father, and that Leia was his sister. Yoda knew he didn't have much time, so he said only what was absolutely necessary.

    On the other hand, maybe he didn't want to inform Luke simply because Luke already had enough to worry. Once he learned Vader was his father, Luke was more concerned about turning him back to the Light Side. Maybe this is what Yoda had in store for him all along- this goes back to the quetsion of whether Yoda knew more about the "Chosen One" prophecy than he let on.

    If he was planning to have Luke turn Anakin, he may have wanted Luke to focus only on that, rather than being consumed with goading Palpatine into a fight. Perhaps he was concerned that if Luke and Palpatine had fought, Luke would have unable to contain his rage, and would have turned.
  14. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    " I don't necessarily subscribe to either theory."
    Fair enough :)

    "I think Yoda was wise enough to figure it out and not argue with the will of the Force."
    Even at the expense of losing the entire Jedi order?
    If so, I'll give him this much credit...that's a lot of faith in the Force.

    All he does is hide Luke, Kenobi, and himself, and wait for the day when he can finally strike back at Vader. No wonder Yoda seemed so unimpressed with Luke. "A long time, have I watched this one." Luke had no idea what was to be expected of him, and Yoda just saw a whiny, wimpy whelp of a kid. Any of Yoda's young pawdawans coulda kicked Luke's butt in ESB!

    Great pilot? Yes.

    Savior of the universe? Pleeeeeeeeeeze! Yoda had a lot of work ahead of him.

    [/Rant]
    Like Boba Fett, Yoda had little love for the Skywalkers. :D


    Anyways ("sorry about the mess" :D ), not only do we have to contend with what Yoda "really" knew, but also what Luke was expecting to happen. Luke does give the "soon I'll be dead, and you with me." Apparently, Yoda or Luke convinced himself that he was not going to survive this encounter, so Luke was obviously into it for the long haul.

    Interestingly enough, why would Luke think he would die, even if he were able to save his father? Was Luke just saying this to look unafraid? What if Luke knew his father would die, regardless of what Luke did?

    Oh well, let someone else answer those questions
  15. Master Salty Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 1999
    star 6
    Even at the expense of losing the entire Jedi order? If so, I'll give him this much credit...that's a lot of faith in the Force.

    I completely believe that. I think Yoda ultimately knew what was going to happen.
  16. D_Lowe Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 6
    MeBeJedi, you do got to ask yourself something. Where in the heck would a Jedi see Force lightning in the 1000 years the Sith were invisible? Only a Sith can do that, so I can't see where a "living" Jedi at that time would of have seen it over the last 1000 years.
  17. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "Only a Sith can do [Force lightning]"

    Says who?

    Jedi could be capable of Dark Side powers, and simply choose not to use them.

    Yoda countered it with ease, so he must know something about it. I will not ascribe his move to dumb luck. How could you deal with something that powerful, without some sort of training?

    Otherwise, this would imply that Kenobi is almost as powerful as Dooku. I think it's knowledge that gave Kenobi his edge, not ability.
  18. RKMeibalane Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 2
    The Sith were believed to have been destroyed up until the events of TPM. However, that does not mean the Jedi never uncovered artifacts or anicent texts that contained knowledge of the Dark Side. Perhaps Yoda studied these texts in order to familiarize himself with the powers of a Dark-Side user. If he did, it is likely that he learned something about the use of Force lightning, which was probably included in the texts.
  19. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    THANK YOU, RKMeibalane

    You are my new main man! :D
  20. RKMeibalane Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 2
    There is another issue that hasn't been touched on, to my knowledge.

    Yoda often said, "Always in motion is the future." In other words, the future was always changing; therefore, it would be virutally impossible to predict the outcome of a particular series of events.

    Because he used the Dark Side, Palpatine was able to see possibilities for the future. However, I don't think he was ever able to see an entire "list" of probable outcomes to various events. The Force gave him an idea of what was to come, but I don't think it ever showed him exactly what was going to happen. Furthermore, I think he misinterpreted many of the visions that he did see.

    Yoda was much wiser than Palpatine. He knew that no matter how powerful he became, there would always be limits to what he could or could not do with the Force. Palpatine refursed to believe that his powers had any limits. This was yet another factor that contributed to his downfall.
  21. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    I think you're quite right about that. There's a reversal between the OT and the PT such that the side of the Force that's in power in each respective trilogy seems to be the more flawed of the two. The difference is the Jedi acknowledge, at least among themselves, that they have become blind, while the Sith don't. Palpy can't admit to Vader that he didn't foresee Luke coming to Endor because of the nature of the Sith. There is a constant competition between the master and the apprentice, and Palpy is afraid to tell his apprentice of his weakness. Even if you don't agree that Palpy's unnecessarily quick and peevish reply to Vader's observation that there were Rebels on the shuttle indicated Palpy had been caught off guard, you must admit it would have been hard for Palpy to foresee that Luke would freely come before him if he didn't even foresee that it had been Luke who'd landed! Palpatine's deceptions became so tangled that he himself couldn't keep them straight. :)

    It's interesting that Anakin, who is supposed to be restoring balance to the Force, always seems to be on the less-balanced of the two sides. Significant?

    Why would Luke think he would die, even if he were able to save his father? Was Luke just saying this to look unafraid? What if Luke knew his father would die, regardless of what Luke did?

    I think Luke started to appreciate he was meant by Obi-Wan and Yoda, and maybe the Force itself, to be a sacrificial lamb if necessary when he started to find out how much the Jedi had been hiding from him. Luke himself probably didn't foresee anyone dying or not dying, since he's only able to catch a few incomplete wisps of the future when he tells Yoda about his vision in ESB and probably didn't develop much more in the few months that followed. However, I think Luke started putting two and two together and figured that at least some of the people going in to the confrontation weren't coming out.

    An even harder question is, did Yoda really believe what he led Luke to conclude, that Luke would die? If he knew from the outset that all Jedi and then all Sith would have to die for the prophesy to be fulfilled, did he think Luke would be caught up in it as well, or did he think Luke would get by on a loophole because he came into being as a Jedi after the great flood to destroy all Jedi occurred?
  22. NiktosRule Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2001
    star 4
    He didn't teach Luke the technique because he didn't train him long enough and had he done so it may have made Luke want more knowledge. Luke may have wanted to learn how to use sith lightning which would of course sent him to the darkside's path.
  23. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    " Luke would get by on a loophole because he came into being as a Jedi after the great flood to destroy all Jedi occurred?"
    Mara, don't you know that lawyer legalese leads to the Dark Side? [face_laugh]
    Force loopholes...have we really come that far? ;)

    "it may have made Luke want more knowledge."
    As opposed to everything else Yoda taught him? That's quite an assumption to make about Luke. Besides, Yoda need only tell him "no." What's Luke gonna do? Whine? He does that about everything else anyways.

    Luke had no intention of going over to the Dark Side. He knew that's the path his father took, and saw what it did to him. If Luke was willing to risk his life to redeem his father away from the Dark Side, why on earth would he even consider following that path as well?
  24. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    don't you know that lawyer legalese leads to the Dark Side?

    It is too late for me, son... ;)

    But it worked, didn't it? Luke survived despite the fact that the Force was apparently trying to purge the galaxy of everyone who could use it. Did it not consider him a Jedi? Did it mean for him to be Noah who was to go repopulate the galaxy?

    Personally, I don't like the second possibility because it goes against Campbell's idea of myths always ending with an explanation of how the magic ended and the modern era began. GL has followed Campbell so closely on everything else that he probably wouldn't break with him on this.
  25. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "Luke survived despite the fact that the Force was apparently trying to purge the galaxy of everyone who could use it. Did it not consider him a Jedi?"
    But I don't subscribe to this interpretation. I think the Jedi were killed during the fulfillment of the Prophecy, not because of it.

    Think of it from a plot point of view. In ANH, Kenobi talks of a lost Jedi order, of which he is one of the last remnants (before GL decided to finish the Trilogy - ANH does stand on its own!) This is not an unusual plot device in many fantasy films (yes, Star Wars is fantasy). GL needed a protagonist, and what best than to go against the guy who completely destroyed this old order (with a little help, of course.) Ancient weapons and hokey religions is what it's all about!

    If you really think about the "all Force-users gone" scenario, consider this. Why didn't the Force just stop allowing itself to be used? Also, since people are born with this ability, this means that this scenario could repeat itself over and over throughout time. What kind of a happy ending would it be to know that, at the end of ROTJ, Luke is still in danger, because the Force is out to get him? This could start turning into Final Destination! [face_laugh]

    Besides, the Force is life! The Force went after Palps because he uses the Force in the worst way possible. Up until now, the Sith have just been laying low, not really creating any disturbances. All that's changed, and the Force is trying to correct this problem. In the process of this, it over-corrected.

    I have a theory -- perhaps the OT was never supposed to happen?

    [scooby-doo]Huhhhhh?[/scooby-doo]

    Maybe Anakin was supposed to destroy the Emperor in Ep.III, and made the wrong choice! As a result, Palpatine continues to carry out his plans, and the Jedi order is destroyed as a result of this choice.

    Again, we don't know the specifics of the Prophecy. Either Palpatine really knows everything that happens, or he adjusts for any deviations and just [fakes] the rest. What's to say this didn't happen with the Force. Remember, if it were all powerful, it would have taken care of the Emperor itself. The Force obviously has to rely on people to accomplish its goals, but people aren't perfect. (again, this is similar to God working through his/her believers.) Anakin screwed up, and Yoda had to take the initiative to put the Prophecy back on track. He had to find some way to return Anakin to the Light Side, because he's the one the Prophecy talks about.

    Otherwise, if the Prophecy could fulfill itself without outside assistance, why bother making Anakin in the first place? Everyone could just sit around, doing nothing, and just wait for the Prophecy to come to pass, right? Wrong! It required the actions of Anakin, and all those around him. Anakin missed the first time, but the Force gave him a second chance.

    BTW, who's Campbell, and when did we start talking about soup? :D
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