Yoda's knowledge of the darkside

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Obi-WanLeroy, Jan 24, 2003.

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  1. General Kenobi Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 1998
    star 6
    OK, just a few random thoughts regarding posts here:

    "Palpatine never suspects that Darth Vader will betray him."

    I think that he might have sensed this. When Vader hands him Luke's lightsaber, he comments, "By now you must know your father can never be turned from the dark side." He wants to try to convince Luke (and perhaps Vader!) that this is really true. But if it is true, why does he need to say it? Because this is exactly what Luke is trying to do, and I think Palpy knows it and is worried.

    It will be interesting to see how the Jedi learn of Palpatine's true identity...

    The only ones who really have to know in the long run are Yoda and Obi-Wan. Maybe the rest never find out. It seems that even in the OT, very few know that he is the Sith Master. Tarkin doesn't seem to. (He comments to Vader that he is "all that's left of that religion".)


    "I think Yoda was wise enough to figure it out and not argue with the will of the Force."

    In TPM, Qui-Gon certainly believed in the will of the Force, perhaps more so than Yoda.


    There's a reversal between the OT and the PT such that the side of the Force that's in power in each respective trilogy seems to be the more flawed of the two.

    Kind of like how when a car skids out of control in snow, it often "fishtails" back out of control in the opposite direction.

    Some great discussion going on here!! :)
  2. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    BTW, who's Campbell, and when did we start talking about soup

    Surely you know about Joseph Campbell, right?
  3. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    I'm afraid I don't.....

    And don't call me Shirley! [face_laugh]


    (I finally get to use that joke!!!)
  4. Master Salty Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 1999
    star 6
    In the novel it clearly states that Luke can sense Palpy's fear as he's walking back to his chair with Luke's saber.
  5. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    Salty, that's probably true.

    However, I try to keep my reasoning to what's onscreen, because Lucas is limited by that in his movies. Anything about the movie that has to be explained in a book makes for a bad movie.

    (I hope no one gets the idea that I hate EU. I have almost all of the novels -- even [puke] Kevin J. Anderson [/puke])

    I've never read the novelisations, but I would love to get them on CD!
  6. Master Salty Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 1999
    star 6
    The novels are there to expand on the movies. I found the TPM and AOTC novels to be better than the movies in some respects. Granted the OT novels aren't the most accurate in the world, but I refuse to have a one-sided view (just films) of Star Wars. I like the depth the movie novels cover. With all that being said, I'm pretty sure Palpy feared the two Skywalkers being together during the course of their stay on the DSII.
  7. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Joseph Campbell was the leading expert on mythology/epic stories for a long time. Lucas was and is a big follower of his work, and learned from him. Here's a quick intro.
  8. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    Palpy does suspect Vader will try to betray him. In fact, Vader explictly tells Palpy he's going to try to oust him. Vader and Palpy are both quite aware of the rule of two when they discuss bringing Luke in as a "third" member of the order. They both intend to replace the other with Luke. Vader got the advantage when he did because
    a) Palpy was distracted while frying Luke, and
    b) Palpy saw Vader crawling back to his side like a wounded animal and was too overconfident to realize Vader could be doing it for a reason other than to seek his master's protection.

    Maybe Anakin was supposed to destroy the Emperor in Ep.III, and made the wrong choice! As a result, Palpatine continues to carry out his plans, and the Jedi order is destroyed as a result of this choice.

    Maybe. However, if Anakin had killed Palpy in E3, that wouldn't have rectified the issue of the Jedi becoming weaker with the Force. It almost seems like the Jedi were doing something very, very wrong in the PT era and the Force was withdrawing its support from them. I think it's significant that Yoda doesn't teach Luke a lot of things the youngest padawans would have learned in the PT era, such as the role of midichlorians in use of the Force and the distinction between the living Force and the unifying Force. Yoda seems to have realized the Force was reprimanding the Jedi for dichotomizing the Force too much.

    You could argue that it was not the will of the Force but rather the mere presence of Palpatine that made it more difficult for Jedi to see the Force. However, the PT era was not the first time in history the Sith were powerful (even if you reject all EU, you have to accept the canon reference that the Sith had some noticable presence 1000 years before). The PT era was the first time in history the Jedi fell. So unless there was something very special about Palpatine as a Sith lord that affected the Jedi, you can't blame the dark side alone for weakening them.

    I also think Anakin needed time to mature enough and become powerful enough to take Palpy on. He may have had greater Force potential than Palpy, but he was still facing several disadvantages. For one, Palpatine was a much more experienced Force-user than he was. For another, Palpatine had great political power and was a skilled manipulator, so he had skills above and beyond what the Force had given him which he could use against Anakin.

    I think the OT strongly implies that Vader is railing against Palpy's control and would have ousted him long ago had he been able to. So maybe it wasn't necessary for the Jedi to be destroyed for the prophesy to fulfill itself, but it was necessary for Vader to be an apprentice as long as he was.
  9. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "but I refuse to have a one-sided view (just films) of Star Wars."

    Oh, don't get me wrong. I have no trouble juggling the various Star Wars worlds in my mind. My only concern is, when it comes to speculating on what did happen in the films (or what will happen in Ep.III), it makes more sense to me to see it from Lucas' point of view. As far as I know, he's only read a little of the EU, and I believe that's mainly the comics. It wouldn't make sense to use information that Lucas isn't aware of to guess at what he might have meant.

    That being said, I do like seeing how Lucas' ideas from all the films fit into EU, but I also laugh at the concepts that don't jibe together.

    [EDIT] That being said, I would agree that the novelisations are far closer to Lucas' vision than any of the EU books.
  10. RKMeibalane Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 2
    I've always wondered what Palpatine was thinking during that scene. Based on the dialogue alone, he seems to be in complete control of the situation. Perhaps that was not the case.

    Touching on a point made earlier, I defintely think the comparisons between the Jedi Purge and the Great Flood are valid. If we consider the Force to be an entity of sorts, then it is possible that the Force was angry with the Jedi for their arrogance, and it decided to reduce their numbers, almost to the point of extinction.

    This brings to light other questions:

    Why Anakin Skywalker?

    Anakin was chosen to carry out the Jedi Purge as Darth Vader, because the Force needed someone who was capable of completing the task.

    Why have Yoda and Obi-Wan survive?

    Obi-Wan was needed to begin Luke's training. The Force chose him for this role because of his experience with Anakin. Having had an apprentice turn to the Dark Side caused Obi-Wan to change his approach to training. He was much gentler with Luke than we have seen him act towards Anakin to this point in the PT.

    Yoda survived because he was the only member of the old Jedi Order who did not possess the flaws of his peers. He was aware of his place in history, but he was not arrogant. He felt fortunate to have the power of the Force at his command, and he used the Force as it was meant to be used. It is for this reason that he was selected as the person to complete Luke's training.
  11. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    Oh yeah... MeBe, here's an excellent thread on Campbell's influence on Star Wars.

    Edit: Hmm, there sure have been a lot of mods converging on our quaint little forum lately. I wonder what's up. [face_devil]
  12. Master Salty Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 1999
    star 6
    I think the Force's will was being played out in the saga. When Qui-Gon mentions the vergence around Anakin, it's clear the JC has heard of this before and they seem frightened. I agree that Yoda is the only one that really understands what's going on with the Dark Side. I think it comes from his ability to peer into the Dark Side and learn what it has to say.
  13. RKMeibalane Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 2
    I agree. In the history of the Jedi Order, we know of only person who has successfully navigated through the Dark Side and ultimately retained his Light- Anakin Skywalker.

    I do think Yoda may possibly be another who has done this. Yoda never turned to the Dark Side, but I do think he spent a great deal of time studying it. His experience and knowledge of the Force allowed him to probe the Dark Side without being consumed by it. It makes sense that he would have a better understanding of how the Force, as a whole, works.

    I doubt if any of his peers in the Order combined were able to attain the mastery of the Force that he did. Yoda was in a class by himself.
  14. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "the Force was withdrawing its support from them."
    Then I re-ask my previous question. Why didn't the Force do this with Palpatine? He's still far worse than any of the Jedi. Why are the Jedi "losing" touch with the Force, while Palpatine gets "stronger"? That makes no sense, unless you consider that Palpatine is the one affecting the flow of the Force, rather than the Force itself. Look at the OT. All of a sudden, the Jedi are getting the Force "b"the Force was withdrawing its support from them."
    Then I re-ask my previous question. Why didn't the Force do this with Palpatine? He's still far worse than any of the Jedi. Why are the Jedi "losing" touch with the Force, while Palpatine gets "stronger"? That makes no sense, unless you consider that Palpatine is the one affecting the flow of the Force, rather than the Force itself. Look at the OT. All of a sudden, the Jedi are getting the Force "back"? It seems like the Force can't make up its damn mind. It's not solid reasoning.

    "the role of midichlorians in use of the Force and the distinction between the living Force and the unifying Force. "
    Concepts that may not have existed is GL's mind at the time, but your point is made.

    "Yoda seems to have realized the Force was reprimanding the Jedi for dichotomizing the Force too much."
    Not to mention Lucas getting reprimanded for even introducing this concept. If watched in episodic order, this "lack" of information from Kenobi in ANH would make him appear to be feeling nostalgic...describing the "glory" of the Jedi, rather than the cold, scientific truth.

    "you have to accept the canon reference that the Sith had some noticable presence 1000 years before"
    And I do, but the Sith also eliminated themselves as a threat. Problem solved, until now. Besides, I don't think any of the Sith were in the position of power that Palpatine was in. Having a lot of Sith doesn't necessarily make them more dangerous than one Sith who has the full weight of an Empire, clonetroopers, and a Death Star to back him up.

    " I also think Anakin needed time to mature enough and become powerful enough to take Palpy on."
    I would agree with that

    "For one, Palpatine was a much more experienced Force-user than he was.
    But in what way? I don't see a whole lot of evidence for his "abilities." I would agree that he has some, but I don't find them as "kick-A$$" as some people believe

    "Palpatine had great political power and was a skilled manipulator, so he had skills above and beyond what the Force had given him which he could use against Anakin. "
    Actually, I would argue that his manipulative skills were enhanced by the force. Still, He's not much more than a powerfully persuasive con man with a "shocking" personality. If he had powers beyond that, why bother with an army? He needed the brawn to back up his weak areas. This is why he had to get rid of the Jedi. Their skills, though affected, were still greater than his.

    "So maybe it wasn't necessary for the Jedi to be destroyed for the prophesy to fulfill itself, but it was necessary for Vader to be an apprentice as long as he was."
    I would agree with that also. The previous theory of Anakin getting 2 chances was just something that was floating in my mind. I was considering how specific the Prophecy actually was. Was there a set pattern of events that had to take place, or did Vader just have to be in the right place at the right time? I thnk it's a good question.

    (P.S. Mara, remember when I said I wished you would respond to my posts? Well, I changed my mind! :p) ack"? It seems like the Force can't make up its damn mind. It's not solid reasoning.

    "the role of midichlorians in use of the Force and the distinction between the living Force and the unifying Force. "
    Concepts that may not haev existed is GL's mind at the time, but your point is clear

    "Yoda seems to have realized the Force was reprimanding the Jedi for dichotomizing the Forc
  15. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    Now that's a clever way to make your post look twice as long as it is. :p

    Ug, I'm tired. I think I'll answer that in the morning. Until then,

    //TAGs Salty

    You're it!
  16. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "there sure have been a lot of mods converging on our quaint little forum lately"
    Actually, Kenobi was hunuting me down for Laserdisc information. He wasn't here for you :p

    Also, what's up with you and Salty double-teaming me!?! [face_laugh]

    Use the Rule of 2 against me, will you !?! :eek:

    [Force tongue :p ]


    [EDIT]
    "Now that's a clever way to make your post look twice as long as it is. "
    You're just jealous because I can type faster! :)
  17. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    Hey! Nobody said Mara could play tag with us!!! [face_laugh]
  18. Master Salty Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 1999
    star 6
    Of course we're double teaming you.

    [face_devil]

    I'm not sure why Palpy is so much stronger than the Jedi. If he has the power to cloud the Force and affect it's direction, that would lead you to think of him as a "Dark Side Chosen One". Unless of course, the Force is guiding him and is a completely neutral presence. I think of Yoda as a referee in this whole mess. His ability to peer into the Dark Side probably helps him survive.
  19. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    " I'm not sure why Palpy is so much stronger than the Jedi. If he has the power to cloud the Force and affect it's direction, that would lead you to think of him as a "Dark Side Chosen One". "

    Not necessarily. Think of it this way. In a sailboat race, there's a manuever where boat A will intercept boat B's wind, thus preventing the other boat from getting full use of the wind. Boat A is not by any means a "super" boat (or the "Chosen Boat" ;) ), it simply has a way of affecting the second boat without having to come in direct contact with it.

    The Jedi simply aren't used to being in contact with the Dark Side, and as such, they have no idea how to deal with it. It's like training at high altitude. There's a lack of oxygen, and your body struggles to do what it could normally do when there's more oxygen. By the time Yoda and Kenobi "adapt" to the Dark Side, it'll be too late to do anything to stop Palpatine.
  20. Master Salty Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 1999
    star 6
    It's a good thing Anakin came to his senses and destroyed Palpy.
  21. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "Better late than never!" ;)
  22. Master Salty Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 1999
    star 6
    Yoda's knowledge of the dark side could also explain why he's not consumed with that dark side presence on Dagobah. He knew exactly what Luke would find in there. I've often wondered if Yoda went in there as well.
  23. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    Seriously, maybe that was his secret lab, where he "experimented" with the Dark Side! That's one hell of a theory (even though it goes against EU! [face_laugh])
  24. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    Thought I'd throw this in from StarWars.com. This came from the databank on the Jedi...

    "For a decade, there was no physical signs of the remaining Dark Lord, but evidence of his power began to appear.

    The Jedi ability to use the Force inexplicably began to diminish."


    The Force is suddenly diminished, by Palpatine. There is no slow removal of the Force by the Force. Palpatine is causing this to happen! Otherwise, it's simply too coincidental.
  25. Master Salty Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 1999
    star 6
    Palpy is one hell of a force presence if that's true. :eek:

    Maybe the cave was Yoda's secret lab.

    [face_laugh]
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