Yoda's knowledge of the darkside

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Obi-WanLeroy, Jan 24, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    One way to look at it is that Palpatine does have a great influence.

    Another way is my sailboat example. Both boats are equal, yet one can diminish the other by a simple method (which the Jedi may not be aware of). Even a smaller boat can affect a larger boat, as David "affected" Goliath. It's not what you have, it's how you use it!

    (At least, that's what I keep trying to convince my wife [face_laugh])


    Sorry....
  2. Master Salty Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 1999
    star 6
    [face_laugh]

    That's a new spin on little boats and big boats.
  3. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    Salty,
    How come there are no users online at your website? Are they all here? (probably in the PT forums! :D )
  4. Master Salty Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 1999
    star 6
    A lot of them are East Coasters. Some people are there but after 5 minutes of inactivity, the name down at the bottom will disappear. I'm there right now.

    I wonder why Yoda told Luke the Dark Side wasn't stronger, when it clearly was in the PT.
  5. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    He kinda did. Luke asked this, and Yoda said, "No, easier, faster" or something like that. Actually, it was Lucas who said the Dark Side is stronger.
  6. Master Salty Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 1999
    star 6
    One thing is for sure, Yoda saw what the Dark Side in the hands of a Sith Master was capable of.
  7. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    Absolutely,

    Well, I'm ready for bed!

    So, is this site of yours worth joining? I'd hate to have to crash another forum and make all the PT gushers cry. ;)
  8. Master Salty Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 1999
    star 6
    It's a good little site, but don't crash the movie forums too hard. PT Gushers are people too and shoud be treated with respect.
  9. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    To their face, maybe.

    (But behind their backs.... [face_devil] )

    Anyways, I'm gonna hit the sack. That SE analogy really did it for me [face_laugh]

    BTW, I know the situation hasn't changed since Mara left, but......

    [TAG] :p

    C-ya!
  10. Master Salty Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 1999
    star 6
    Have a great night and we'll pick this up later.

    :)
  11. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
  12. RKMeibalane Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 2
    The Star Wars saga may be classified as a sort of "chess match" between Yoda and Palpatine. Each has several players he attempts to use against the other.

    Yoda has Mace Windu, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Luke Skywalker, and Anakin Skywalker, though Palpatine may not be aware of this last player.

    Palpatine has his apprentices- Vader, Maul, Tyranus- at his disposal. Maul and Tyranus are destroyed, so Palpatine is left with Vader. Yoda loses Windu and Kenobi, and may think he has lost Anakin as well, but he has not.

    This represents Yoda's advantage. Palpatine has only one man left to use against Yoda, but Yoda has two that he may use. Palpatine's mistake comes when he tries to make himself a part of the game, and he is neutralized by Anakin. As a result of this action, only Luke Skywalker remains on the board. Checkmate! Yoda wins!

  13. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    Well, Leia is the white queen. Who's the black queen?

    (Besides Aretha Franklin, of course! ;) )
  14. General Kenobi Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 1998
    star 6
    "For a decade, there was no physical signs of the remaining Dark Lord, but evidence of his power began to appear.

    The Jedi ability to use the Force inexplicably began to diminish."


    The Force is suddenly diminished, by Palpatine. There is no slow removal of the Force by the Force. Palpatine is causing this to happen!


    Could it have been due to Tyranus beginning to use the Dark Side? Not as likely as Palpy. But what about Anakin? Was the Chosen One usurping the power of the Force as he grew into maturity? I guess the databank line implies that it was Sidious' use of the Force that was creating the "shroud of the Dark Side" and causing the Jedi's power to diminish.

    Has anyone considered that Palpy may have a higher midichlorian count than Anakin? I think most of us assumed that Anakin had the highest based on the TPM blood analysis, and the fact that he is the Chosen One. Maybe Palpy actually has more pure Force potential, or maybe he just manipulates Anakin to believe so.

    I like the sailboat analogy, BTW.

    Regarding the question of Yoda telling Luke about Force-lightning: In the ROTJ novelization, it says that Luke tries to use the Force to repel Palpy's lightning (he actually raises his hands, like Yoda does in AOTC), but is overwhelmed. Obvioulsy, we can't see evidence of this in the film. But you could infer that he was using Yoda's teachings of using the Force for defense, even if he does forget Yoda's warning about underestimating the powers of the Emperor.

    Now, I think it was silly for Luke to toss his lightsaber aside. (Recall Obi-Wan: "This weapon is your life.") But that is symbollic of him rejecting the Dark Side. He had been using his saber for attack, with rage. Think of what Obi-Wan would have done there: Hold up his saber to deflect the lightning, then go and slice Palpy up like he did his apprentice./>
  15. Master Salty Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 1999
    star 6
    I completely forgot about the novel reference to Luke trying to defend himself. I think Luke throwing his saber aside was one of the coolest moments in the SW saga.
  16. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    " Now, I think it was silly for Luke to toss his lightsaber aside. (Recall Obi-Wan: "This weapon is your life.") But that is symbollic of him rejecting the Dark Side. He had been using his saber for attack, with rage. Think of what Obi-Wan would have done there: Hold up his saber to deflect the lightning, then go and slice Palpy up like he did his apprentice."

    Precisely. Luke was trying to make a point, but he did so under insufficient evidence. Again, whether or nor this was intential (either by Yoda or the Force) is debatable.
  17. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    For a decade, there was no physical signs of the remaining Dark Lord, but evidence of his power began to appear.

    The Jedi ability to use the Force inexplicably began to diminish.


    But there was a third event coinciding with these two that isn't mentioned: The Force's weapon, Anakin, became a Jedi! So, if you could argue that Palpy was the one disrupting the Jedi's abilities, you could equally well argue that the Force was acting through Anakin to disrupt the Jedi.

    Also, Palpy didn't have legions of stormtroopers and Death Stars at his disposal at that point in his career. It was only after Anakin came to support him that he gained power over the galaxy and began to use those capabilities to destroy life on an enormous scale. In the PT era, the Force had no reason to "like" Palpy any less than it had liked any other Sith lord because he hadn't started commiting any abominations yet. He only did what every other Sith in the past had done: watched for an opportunity to begin the Sith order's rise.
  18. RKMeibalane Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 2
    Several factors may have contributed to the diminshing power of the Jedi Order, two of which I will now discuss.

    First of all, the emergence of the Sith contributed to the decline of the Jedi. The actions of Sidious and his apprentices gradually weakened the Jedi, as the Dark Side gained strength from their accomplishments.

    Second, the Jedi alive during this time period were not as well-trained as their predecesors had been. Worse, they had become arrogant. Yoda was perhaps the only member of the Order who was not arrogant. One could argue that Yoda displayed arrogance by attempting to train Dooku and restrain his independent streak, but I don't think Dooku's fall was Yoda's fault.

    By the time Dooku turned to the Dark Side, he was at least seventy years of age, and was no longer under the conrol of his Master. The choices he made, for whatever reason, were his own. Yoda may have blamed himself for his former Padawan's fall, but I don't think he was responsible for that.
  19. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "In the PT era, the Force had no reason to "like" Palpy any less than it had liked any other Sith lord because he hadn't started commiting any abominations yet. He only did what every other Sith in the past had done: watched for an opportunity to begin the Sith order's rise."

    He didn't just "wait around" for things to happen. He's been pulling strings for years. You yourself said he was a master manipulator. The amount of manipulating he's been doing has taken time and effort. He's leaving nothing to chance. He's always talking about things happening "according to his design". It takes one hell of a design to take over the Republic, wouldn't you think?

    Besides, here's another problem with your theory. None of the Jedi ever talk about any problems when Anakin's around. It's only when Palpatine is around. Qui-gon says a great deal about what he feels from Anakin on Tatooine, but it's not until Maul comes near that Qui-gon senses something "wrong." Maul gives off Dark-side energy, Anakin does not!.

    I think you're reaching with the "Anakin's the bad guy from the beginning" theory. This tale would have no meaning if Anakin was evil to begin with. It is more compelling if he had the potential to be good, and chose to go to the Dark side.

    [EDIT]
    By the way, this would also fit in more with your "tragic hero" Campbell logic that you like to plagirize---oops, quote so often! :)
  20. D_Lowe Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 6
    I think everybody should realize that Yoda may of known about Sith lighting, but he didn't see it until Dooku used it on him. Anakin wasn't prepared, but Obi-Wan was because Obi-Wan saw what Dooku did to Anakin just a moment ago. I'm sure Obi-Wan knew that since his lightsaber is an energy blade, it would absorb lightning.
  21. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    Here ya go, Mara!

    JUST THE FACTS: Everything that is known about Episode III

    * 10 Oct, 2002; Ep2 DVD Commentary info from TFN's early DVD review:

    His (George's) discussion during the arena battle sequence centers around Mace Windu, where George mentions the character's demise at the end of the Clone Wars. George also articulates that Bail Organa will be featured much more in Episode III, and that actor Jimmy Smits had to deal with just being introduced in AOTC. George at several other points reminds listeners of the importance of Episode II in that it is Anakin's move from innocence in The Phantom Menace to his complete downfall in Episode III.
  22. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    I'm afraid to read that. It's from the spoiler forum, and my signature says... whatever. ;)

    Anyway, I don't think Anakin was necessarily born predestined to fall to the dark side - although I think it would better establish him as a tragic hero if he were. (His life was pretty miserable, don't you agree?)

    The Jedi sensing or not sensing a Force user doesn't necessarily prove anything about the person either. The biggest and most obvious hole is Palpatine. If the Jedi can't sense him with any specificity, he or someone must have blinded them pretty successfully, so there's no way to know if their perceptions of Anakin were accurate. And of course, we don't really know what they sensed about Anakin to begin with! Qui-Gon only says he's surrounded by a vergence, but he doesn't specify what it is.
  23. YomminCarr Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2003
    I've always had a difficulty with this "Balance" thing relating to the force. What exactly does it mean to "bring balance to the force?"

    Doesn't the word 'balance' means an equalizing on both sides? If the force were balanced, wouldn't there be an equal number of evil Sith to balance or offset an equal number of Jedi? It seems to me that ALL jedi and no Sith is not balanced at all!
  24. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    " Doesn't the word 'balance' means an equalizing on both sides? If the force were balanced, wouldn't there be an equal number of evil Sith to balance or offset an equal number of Jedi? It seems to me that ALL jedi and no Sith is not balanced at all!"

    That's one possibility, but the problem is Luke is still left at the end of ROTJ, not to mention Leia.

    By this reasoning, if Luke is the last Jedi, then the Force is still out to get him. Instead of a happy ending, we are left with a "Final Destination" ending.

    It makes more sense if Lucas' vision of "balance" refers to eliminating the Sith. Sure, there have always been Sith, but when was the last time that the Sith had a Death Star to destroy whole planets, as take over the galaxy? Palpatine and Vader were probably the "greatest" Sith that ever lived, thus the greatest threat to the Force in the history of the Sith. The Force decided to clean house, once and for all.
  25. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    Uh-oh, this thread is up again. [face_devil]

    I don't think it's possible for the Force to clean house without eliminating all Force-users, though. There's always a danger that a Jedi being trained will become impatient with their training and start using the dark side. If the Sith order doesn't exist anymore, the frustrated Jedi can just start a new one. The only way the Force could ensure a situation like Palpy's would never occur again was to disallow the training of any new Force-users.

    That explanation would also circumvent the "Final Destination" ending you hate, MeBe. The Force wouldn't actually be out to get Luke because he was already trained and had resisted the dark side, and maybe Leia would get by as well. They just wouldn't be able to restart the Jedi order.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.