Yoda's Lament

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by DarthMoby, Nov 21, 2003.

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  1. DarthMoby Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2002
    star 4
    Forgive me if this has been already talked about, but I was wondering when Luke goes to see Yoda in Episode V and Yoda begins to go on about how he could not train the boy, was Yoda at that point ready to concede victory to Vader and Palpatine? Or was he baiting Luke? Is it possible that he would not have trained Luke for fear of his following the same path as his father? Did he have a backup plan if Luke wasn't suitable? Or was he residing himself to the fact the galaxy was lost? To me he seems very unwilling to train Luke, but does it because he has no other choice. Had Ben not been there to argue for Luke, I don't think Yoda would have trained him.
  2. darthYENIK Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2003
    star 2
    I think Yoda knew what he was doing, He was testing him to see if there would be any fear (and of course, "there will be..."), or possibly see if luke would easily give up and just stop trying if he was refused the training.
  3. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    *Obligatory 'Lament' post.*
  4. SLR Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2002
    star 5
    Darth Mobey, I think it was a little bit of both. When Luke first got to Dagobah and Yoda was acting like a crazy muppet, he was testing Luke's patience and character. It was all an act. However, when he gets in the hut and says "I cannot train him", I think he is being sincere. He sensed fear, anger, and impatience in Luke and did not want to train another Vader, making the emperor even more powerful. I don't know if there was a plan B or he was just giving up, but he definitely was against training Luke. It was Obi-Wan that got him to change his mind.
  5. Onizuka Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2003
    star 1
    Yoda just has no choice. Luke is the only hope left for the Jedi. I think Yoda just kinda bet on it...like Hey give it a shot.
  6. IncomT65 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 1999
    star 4
    He could've been serious about not training the brat. Remember, Yoda knew of the other Skywalker. So he did have a sort of backup plan.
  7. Errant_Venture Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2002
    star 6
    Yes, but how was he to contact Leia?

    I've always thought of it as baiting and/or testing the resolve of Luke. Perhaps to see how quick Luke is in the head, since Yoda never told Luke who he was.

    I've always thought that everything Yoda does on Dagobah with Luke is a test.

    If I may quote Walter Burke from Recruit "Everything is a test."
  8. Bib Fortuna Twi'lek Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1999
    star 10
  9. DarthIshtar Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 9
    I think he would have tested Luke until Luke was ready, because he knew that there was enough good in him and enough of the power there to accomplish what the Force needed. But I have written two stories where Leia as "No, there is another" is played out. And Luke tells her she has the powers too when she protests that she could never be like him.
  10. DarthDean Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2003
    star 1
    Why is it that Luke must be trained? Yoda is a jedi, so why can't he teach anybody to save the galaxy? He probably was saying to Ben, the hell with Luke, I'll go on to someone else. If someone is a doctor, you mean to say only a Doctor's son can be trained to become another doctor to save the world from illness? I know there would be no story for Luke, but saving the galaxy from the empire is key here.
  11. jedi_master_ousley Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2002
    star 8
    Why is it that Luke must be trained?

    He was Anakin's son, and probably the only person who would stand a chance of bringing Anakin back to the good side. Imaging you are a father and did something really bad. Who is going to have a greater impact on helping you choose the right path (assuming they both try): your son, or some random stranger off the street?
  12. Errant_Venture Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2002
    star 6
    That goes under the implication that Yoda and Ben felt that Vader could be turned. When in all actuality, they probably believed that it was too late for Vader and the only course of action was to destroy him, not save him.

    As for finding another candidite, one would most likely have to expose themselves to the Empire if they went Jedi recruit hunting. It was much safer to be able to train Skywalker in secret, then going out and risking exposure.
  13. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    He was testing Luke's intelligence. He wanted to see if Luke was smart enough to realize Yoda couldn't realistically turn him away.

    [face_laugh]
  14. YodasLament Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2003
  15. WMCoolmon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    When I saw this thread title I thought of Jack's Lament, from Nightmare Before Christmas. It could be a good song...

    Anyway, I think Yoda was testing Luke. The way he says, "He is too old. Yes. Too old to begin the training..." doesn't sound very much like Yoda's normal speech at all. Edit: Not just because it isn't backwards :p. It was probably an act to make Luke try harder, to keep him from slacking off because he didn't have to work very hard to get into Jedi training.
  16. Ret Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 1999
    star 6
    "Why is it that Luke must be trained? Yoda is a jedi, so why can't he teach anybody to save the galaxy? "

    Not just anybody could go and cause Vader to kill Palpatine.
  17. DarthNigel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 14, 2003
    star 3
    It is true that Yoda could not realistically turn Luke away, and that he was their (second-)last hope. It's also true that much of Yoda's dialog with Luke when they meet in ESB is meant to test Luke's patience and his mindset, to guage his psychological state.

    However, I also agree with SLR above that Yoda's line "I cannot teach him, the boy has no patient" has the ring of truth and sincerity.

    So how can it be both ways? My opinion is that Yoda was genuinely ambivalent and troubled about the prospect of starting Jedi training with an apprentice as old as Luke.

    Obviously at some point in ep3 or between 3 and 4, a decision is made to give Luke to Owen and Beru to raise, and to not train Luke as an infant. This obviously represents a departure from the Jedi's standard practice, and one which, in Anakin's case, led to his fall. (i.e. the fact that he had been allowed to have a "normal" childhood with an emotional attachment to his mother.)

    With Luke, his emotional attachments growing up were for his uncle and aunt, who are now dead. However, Luke also has feelings for his friends, and his later decision to interrupt his training and go to help them confirms what may have been Yoda's feeling all along - that Luke's emotional attachments are a real weakness, and that aspects of his character (impatience, impetuousness, absent-mindedness) have developed which could have been suppressed if he had Jedi guidance from a young age.

    When Yoda says "I cannot train him..." he's merely giving voice to what, after 20 years, his heart still feels is a major potential problem with their plan, and something which will be a hurdle for them to overcome.

    This is not to say that Yoda believes the decision (to wait until Luke was older before training him) was wrong. Yoda and Obi-Wan both know that if Luke is trained from a young age, it will create a disturbance in the Force which will alert the Emperor and/or Vader, and place the young Luke at risk. As their plan unfolds in ESB, the Emperor only detects the danger Luke represents after he arrives at Dagobah to begin his training in earnest.

    As Obi-Wan says in ROTJ, "To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born. The Emperor knew, as I did, that if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him..."

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