Yoda's lightsaber skills

Yes, but the Pod missed him when he jumped. He was still standing in the Pod when it passed by, and the Pod completely missed him.

And, I am not necessarily as much a Palpatine fan as one who can see the dramatic intention clearly. Yoda's character is completely weakened if he runs from a battle he was about to win for no reason.

So, its either a Palpatine who has an edge, or a cowardly Yoda.

Then you need to have a word with the thread creator, Emperor.
Because it is clearly entitled Yoda's Lightsaber skills.

GDS was pointing out that Yoda had fought a draw against Palpy.
I'm disagreeing on the Lightsaber front, because that is what we are discussing.

But if you want to talk the WHOLE battle, then Yoda clearly wins.
Because he trains Luke to throw that Lightsaber down.

And THAT is what is Palpy's eventual undoing.

Yoda is without doubt the more powerful Force user.
Because he comes to understand that power has nothing to do with physical prowess.

And everything to do with listening to the Will of the Force, in the moment....


-JR

Yoda may win in the long term, but he still has learned nothing. He still wants to put a lightsaber in Luke's hands and have him slay Vader and Palpatine.

Luke is the only one who realizes that the sole way to kill the Emperor is to turn Vader. Both Obi-wan and Yoda just want him to kill, which will of course not work.

And I would disagree. In the end, it is really only Palpatine and Luke Skywalker who can leave behind the idea of the entire situation being decided by physical prowess. After all, Palpatine is Mr. Mental Manipulation. Yoda usually just physically charges into a situation. Palpatine is, in his own twisted evil way, the wiser of the two.

In the end, Yoda's plans would have gone for naught if Luke had not been wise enough to pursue a strategy that involved something other than Killing, aka Love.

Yoda and Kenobi learned NOTHING from the PT.

So, Yoda in the end lost to Palpatine in their duel, and his trained soldier boy scrapped his plan in the field and pursued his own wiser strategy. Not to mention it was Yoda and Kenobi who basically dropped the ball for the entire Jedi Order and let Palpatine waltz in and take over the galaxy.

So... yeah...

Don't get me wrong I prefer Sidious much more than Yoda, I like to think I'm realistic though.

Palpatine did win because of circumstance as previously mentioned. At what point did Palpatine display the ultimate power and start caneing Yoda??? When he first zapped him upon entering his office. That's it. Oh, and if Yoda didn't hit Palpatine with his pod, when did Palpatine hit Yoda?

Palpatine had the "high ground" and the back up to ensure Yoda wouldn't win if he went back up to confront him. What's the moral message of saber cicumstance? The high ground, ala Obi/;Anakin duel proved. Could it also be mentioned that he fell a long way, banged his little head in the process and didn't have a lightsaber. If Palps was on the edge of that pod where would he be. EXACTLY where YODA was.

Thats silly.

So, according to your interpretation, Palpatine would have eventually lost the battle, but Yoda got knocked off the pod due to luck of the draw, and refused to go back and fight, despite him holding the upper hand?

Then he is a coward, plain and simple. Yoda had NO reason not to get back up and keep fighting, unless he was afraid to die. He could have saved the galaxy from 20 years of cruel totalitarian rule but flaccidly chose not to. What a loser.

I'm not saying Palaptine would have eventually lost I'm saying he won because of circumstance. There's nothing in it between these two, on any given day anyone of them can win. I just don't support the idea that Yoda was defeated in such a clear manner as you. Palaptine won yes but was it convincing? NO!

By the way Yoda is smart enough to not go back up and die for nothing, if that means he is a coward then so be it. I call it common sense.

*EDIT*Gotta go, respond tomorrow

Okay, see, now here is what I am getting at.

If Yoda had gotten back up to fight, the only end would be that he would DIE. Thus, even if Palpatine's victory wasn't super-convincing at the moment that the fight actually ended, had it continued, it would only have ended in Yoda's death.

Therefore, Palpatine was the victor. The fight did not go on to its natural conclusion...but it was heading to a decisive victory for Palpatine.

Thats the entire point I am trying to get across. Yoda ran because running then would be a defeat, but not a complete defeat. So, calling it a draw is missing the point.

I really got to go but I respond properly tomorrow.

In short Palpatine had this victory because of his cicumstance over position etc, etc. If Yoda were to take him on on a level playing field it could be a different story. There's nothing in it as I keep saying. If Yoda went back up then yes he would of died. If they fought the next day with no interference from clones etc then who knows. They are displayed as equals, and rightly so they should be as they represent the top Jedi/Sith.

>>>> Yoda may win in the long term, but he still has learned nothing. He still wants to put a lightsaber in Luke's hands and have him slay Vader and Palpatine.

Luke is the only one who realizes that the sole way to kill the Emperor is to turn Vader. Both Obi-wan and Yoda just want him to kill, which will of course not work.

I completely and utterly disagree with you, EBB.


-JR

Palpatine didn't call the clonetroops until Yoda had fled from the scene. So, the Clonetroops would not have been a factor if he had decided to go back up and face Palpatine again. Palpatine viewed fighting Yoda as a challenge, and I don't think (except for the brief moment early on) that he was trying to run away or spoil the battle.

He wanted to win, and he wanted to win fair and square, which he did.

Witness: Yoda being unwilling to tell Luke about Vader being his father.

"I can't kill my own Father!"

"Then the Emperor has already won! You were our last hope!"

"He is more machine now than man...twisted and evil."

Obi-wan even tells Luke that Luke is wrong when he suggests that Vader has good left in him.

"Once you start down the Dark Path, FOREVER will it dominate your destiny!"

Lucas is hammering it in that Luke is the only one who has thought up the idea to actually redeem Anakin.

They didn't say to him:

"Hey kid, Vader is your father. We want you to go to him and turn him to the light side. You are the only one who can do that."


They did absolutely nothing to hint that Vader could or would be turned. They even implied or directly stated differently. If they had hoped that Luke could turn him, they would have at least hinted at it.

They just wanted him to kill both of them. Plain and simple. They, ESPECIALLY Obi-wan, held no hope for his redemption.

how is someone on the light side of the force supposed to kill someone without a lightsaber...
Force Choke and Force Lightning are both Dark side...Then again Mace Uses force crush on grievous...hmmm...

So, by disarming Yoda...Palpatine gives himself a decisive advantage. Once again, Palpatine 1, Yoda 0.

I have a thread discussing this, which has run for over 15,000 posts now, EBB.
It's better in there than here.

But suffice to say, I disagree with you and the evidence you present.


On topic.
In terms of Yoda's Lightsaber skills, it seems clear to me that the Jedi Master is in the top echelon of swordsmen.

Dooku flees from battle.
Palpatine resorts to the Force (exactly what DID happen to his Saber...? ).

But the point is that no matter how good he is with a Lightsaber, Yoda learns that power in the Force comes from enlightenment. NOT physical prowess.


-JR

And I doubt any of it is refuted convincingly without trying to twist the Director's intent.

"But the point is that no matter how good he is with a Lightsaber, Yoda learns that power in the Force comes from enlightenment. NOT physical prowess."

So, killing Palpatine wouldn't have saved the Galaxy from twenty years of a cruel regime?

While Yoda sat back and played around with the Force, peoples were being massacred and lives ruined while he tried to "listen to the will of the Force."

Yoda was a creature of the Physical world, and a Jedi his prime duty was to the Republic and the people in it.

There are two options here and two only:

Either Yoda could have defeated Palpatine and saved untold suffering for the people he claimed to protect but chose not to or he realized that he could not beat Palpatine and so ran. That is ALL there is to it.

Twist it if you want, but what I have presented and said is pretty cut and dry.

It's one opinion against another, my friend.

My opinion is not yours, based on the evidence found in both Campbell and Kurosawa.
Two of the largest influences on George's thinking.


-JR

Yoda let millions upon millions of people DIE when he could have saved them. When he SHOULD have saved them. IF he could have.

Which I don't believe he could have, and is the ONLY reason he should have left that battle alive.

While not destined to kill the Sith, Yoda is the most powerful duelist in the movies. I'm going to bullett this down. Every single Jedi or Sith lost a specific duel at some point except for Yoda;

- Obi Wan loses to Dooku
- Anakin loses to Obi Wan
- Sidious is disfigured by Mace and is saved by Anakin
- Mace dies at the hand of Anakin/Sidious
- Grievous loses to Obi Wan
- Dooku loses to Anakin
- Maul loses to Obi Wan
- Qui Gon loses to Maul
- The threesome with Mace get tore up by Sidious
- Luke gets pummeled by Sidious

While Yoda does fail against Sidious, it's hard to argue that he actually losest the duel. Winning the battle, but losing the war I'd say. Mace gets punked, but again, he does lose.

Yoda is the only force user who never actually loses. I'd say he's still number 1 in my eyes.

Yoda lost his duel with Sidious, so yeah, he has lost a duel.

Yoda lost, only Mace was never defeated in what I would describe as a real duel.

He got outsmarted and died like a *****.

If that isn't losing, then I don't know what is.

Whatever. If boxer A knocks out boxer B, then boxer B's friend (boxer C) runs into the ring and stabs boxer A in the ribs with a switchblade, boxer C is the *****.

No, see this is not comparable to that.

Boxing is a sport regulated by rules. What happened between Mace and Palpatine was a conflict to the death, and thus sans rules or regulations. All that really matters is who was left standing.

It was Mace that got *****smacked. He dropped the ball big time.

Okay, people the word "bitch" is not allowed in that context and must be starred out.

And let's take all major Yoda v. Sidious discussion to that thread. We don't need to do it here all over again. And also the "Do the Jedi believe Anakin can come back from the darkside" discussion can go in that specific thread.

This one is for Yoda's lightsaber skills and whether it met your expectations, you liked it etc. Not about whether he lost to Sidious or not.

You're wrong.