Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by darthwingduck398686, Jul 15, 2006.
WOOT! One of the best responses (That wasn't one of mine ) that I have seen in a long time. I like how you think.
Yoda's lightsaber skills, surpass that of every jedi that we have seen in action. If anyone disagrees with me there opinion is completley and totally biased.
With Dooku, many say that he left because he had to deliver the death star plans to Sidious which is a good reason to leave. But, if Dooku was so sure that he was going to win then why leave. He could have killed the leader of the jedi order and prolly the strongest jedi of the order.
With Sidious, if we're looking at the lightsaber portion of the duel, Sidious was defeated. In all the saber locks that we see it is Yoda that "wins" each one. He pushes harder than Sidious, in a way controlling the duel. Although not shown in the movie (to make room for Vader/Obi) Yoda disarms..yes you heard correctly, disarms Sidious of his lightsaber, which is why Sidious goes to throw the pods.
In the time that it took Obi Wan to taken down 2 or 3 Clones, Yoda had taken down at least 5.
Nic Gillard is so bias, the swordmaster of star wars. , he does not agree with all that crap you just said.
Ooo right, the guy who also said Sidious goes faster than the speed of light
I have been reading over some of the previous posts and it seems that the topic of conversation has digressed into the Yoda v. Sidious debate; and away from Yoda's skills with a saber. Listen, I think Yoda demonstates his superiority as a swordsman by his ability to disarm Sidious in the first half of the duel. Granted Mace was able to disarm him in his earlier duel; I still think that TICOPUMA is correct: With Sidious, if we're looking at the lightsaber portion of the duel, Sidious was defeated. In all the saber locks that we see it is Yoda that "wins" each one. He pushes harder than Sidious, in a way controlling the duel. Although not shown in the movie (to make room for Vader/Obi) Yoda disarms..yes you heard correctly, disarms Sidious of his lightsaber, which is why Sidious goes to throw the pods. Yes, Yoda does "push" harder than Sidious in the saber locks, hence he controlled the saber portion of the duel.
I also liked what TICOPUMA said that In the time that it took Obi Wan to taken down 2 or 3 Clones, Yoda had taken down at least 5. Yes yes!!
Emperor Billy Bob ? You have made some excellent arguments. I have said it for years that the PT turned Yoda into a clown. He was a poor leader and his retreat was completely cowardly. And the fact that he does not even go to Mustafar to check on Obi Wan makes it worse.
Yoda as far as skills go is the best, The problem is Yoda fights more like a tournament martial artist and every one else fights more like ultimate fighting. Clones dont appear to have souls, they are more like artificial life with no feelings and we have not seen Yoda kill anything in the movies other than a clone.
Yoda has either too much compassion for life or he has no killer instict thats his problem in battle, he just cant seem to go for the kill unless its a clone.
In fact i dont recall Yoda even killing any kind of animal or monster either. Kenobi would lob your arm off if need be, NO PROBLEM KILLING A MONSTER EITHER!!! Mace would take your head off, Anakin became a killing machine and so on through the years...
YODA CANT BRING HIMSELF KILL A NATURAL LIFE FORM WITH A SOUL , examine this you know it to be true!!
>>>> Emperor Billy Bob ? You have made some excellent arguments. I have said it for years that the PT turned Yoda into a clown. He was a poor leader [....]
I can partially agree with what you're saying, GDS.
Although 'clown' is far too strong for me.
I believe that Lucas set the PT up to show the Jedi as arrogant, with no concept of having to learn anything new.
Sat up there in their 'ivory tower' no less.
Anakin is the seed for change and growth, from the Force, and they are blinded to it.
And so as the Jedi Master, yes, to large degree that makes Yoda a bad leader.
But I believe that this is what Lucas wanted to show.
So that by the time of the OT, we see that both he and Obi-Wan have learned from their failure.
That they teach Luke in a different way.
That they follow the Living Force.
If one is to succeed at anything in life, the best way is to first fail at it.
>>>> and his retreat was completely cowardly. And the fact that he does not even go to Mustafar to check on Obi Wan makes it worse.
And here is where we part company.
I don't believe that Yoda's retreat is in ANY WAY cowardly.
Yoda understands in that moment that he was already beaten before he walked into the arena.
The balance of power has shifted and he was blind to it.
He lost the battle and his arrogance cost him the order.
That is why we have his cloak symbolically being shown as the Jedi standard bearer planted at the scene of the loss of this battle.
When you actually look back at the moment that Yoda is repelling Palpy's lightning for the final time, Yoda is the one on the offensive.
Palpy is the one looking scared and beaten.
At the moment just before they are both thrown backwards, Yoda has 'won'.
He is returning that lightning right back to Sidious.
Yet still he loses.
Because it was not his destiny to defeat the dark lord in such a way.
And I believe that when he hits the floor, and then looks back up to see his cloak fluttering down, he understands this.
I believe that his leaving, is down to his listening to the Will of the Force.
The Force is not done with him yet, or here.
It has other plans for him.
And in his time on Dagobah, Yoda comes to understand what those plans are.
The final victory is his, and the Jedi's, because he was wise enough to admit that he was beaten because of his own failings, and then takes the time to learn from them, and put them right.
If what you say is correct, then Yoda still let millions of people suffer and die for the sake of his mystical faith.
The people of the Republic viewed the Jedi as guardians and Yoda completely failed them, plain and simple.
That makes him a failure as a hero. To excuse him from that is excusing cowardice.
Yoda should have fought to the death if he believed he could win. If he did not believe he could win, then he was beaten.
And, many interpret the last moments of the Sids/Yoda duel in seperate ways. You could make the argument that Yoda is blocking Sidious' lightning with a Force Shield, and that Force Shield pops and thus Yoda is flown back, losing the contest. There is visual evidence to support that.
You can't have the argument both ways. If the balance of power had shifted when Yoda entered the Senate building, then he could not have won. If he could have won, but didn't, then he condemned millions, perhaps billions to their violent deaths.
>>>> If what you say is correct, then Yoda still let millions of people suffer and die for the sake of his mystical faith. The people of the Republic viewed the Jedi as guardians and Yoda completely failed them, plain and simple.
The people of the Republic had just cheered the Jedi into extinction as I recall, Billy.
Electing Palpatine into his Emperorship, into the bargain.
The Jedi were no longer guardians of the Republic.
They were outlaws.
And please tell me how Yoda was supposed to know, there and then, that Palpatine would build a Death Star that would kill millions 19 years later...?
Yoda made a choice, based on what the Will of the Force told him.
The Force is both life, and death.
>>>> That makes him a failure as a hero. To excuse him from that is excusing cowardice.
Not in my opinion.
>>>> Yoda should have fought to the death if he believed he could win. If he did not believe he could win, then he was beaten.
Yep. He was beaten.
All ends up, and he knew it.
But the Force wasn't done with him.
>>>> And, many interpret the last moments of the Sids/Yoda duel in seperate ways. You could make the argument that Yoda is blocking Sidious' lightning with a Force Shield, and that Force Shield pops and thus Yoda is flown back, losing the contest. There is visual evidence to support that.
Whichever way you look at it, it doesn't matter.
He'd already lost when he walked in there.
But the real victory has nothing to do with violence and physical power.
And that is what Yoda comes to understand.
The Jedi were so arrogant and blinded by their conceit, that they were drawn into fighting a war that didn't exist.
A war they should never have been fighting in the first place:
[blockquote][hr]"We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers." -- Mace Windu
"And I can't fight a war for you." -- Qui-Gon Jinn[hr][/blockquote]
Note Yoda's words to Luke in TESB:
[blockquote][hr]"Wars not make one great"
"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defence, never for attack."
-- Master Yoda[hr][/blockquote]
The real battle was for Anakin.
And they dropped the ball, because they didn't understand that he was different.
Note that there is no mention of Codes and Orders when training Luke....
>>>> You can't have the argument both ways. If the balance of power had shifted when Yoda entered the Senate building, then he could not have won. If he could have won, but didn't, then he condemned millions, perhaps billions to their violent deaths.
I don't want it both ways, Billy.
I was merely stating that it is my belief that Yoda had the 'power' to beat Palpy, but that it was never going to happen, because it was not his destiny to do so.
Okay, so we both agree. Yoda lost the battle. He may have "had the power" to defeat the Emperor, but so did someone with a blaster or a knife. The Force had shaped those two individuals in such a way at the time that Yoda could NEVER have physically defeated Sidious.
We both agree.
But I think it is quite clear that Sidious also had the power to defeat Yoda, because, well, he did. It wasn't as though "The Force" physically manifested itself to defeat Yoda and directly intervened. That line of thought is putting the cart before the horse. Sidious' victory was not a "miracle" per se. Sidious won because he was more powerful, and it was the Force's will that he should be the more powerful of the two.
It seems Sidious was the first to realize that the way to dominate the Galaxy was not through physical force. That was what fueled his brilliant scheme, and let him completely dominate the galaxy.
Palpatine ended up dying for the same reason that Yoda could never have defeated him, because his destiny determined it.
By the end, the Force had turned against the Emperor just as sharply as it turned against Yoda.
True that Yoda could never had defeated Sidious, I think that much is clear, but by no means could he not defeat him because he lacks power of skill. Simply because it was not his destiny.
In my mind, both Yoda and Sidious are equal. Both of them are the best of the best. They are on a completley diffrent level then everyone else. They had diffrent strengths, Yoda was the better duelist, Sidious levitated things with ease as well as being a master schemer.
Characterization is in the eyes. Watch the very end of the force duel. Palpatine puts on the powerful lightning, yoda gets pushed back. Yoda turns back with a Deadly look in his eyes, pushes palpatine back somewhat. Palpatine looks scared to death, they both fly apart. This is why Palpatine is laughing as he does. He won. But Yoda had him on the run. It's like this... Sadam Hussein is in charge of Iraq, the U.S. beats him entirely in Desert Storm, but due to popular election and our inability politically to oust him, he is able to become a dictator all over again.
Palpatine and Yoda were equals or Yoda was slightly more powerful, but Yoda failed to kill him when he had his chance. Now he's bruised, a hundred feet below palpatine, and has no weapon. He missed his chance, hence "Failed, I have."
Guys, for the last time, this thread IS NOT about the Yoda vs. Sidious fight, nor is it about Yoda's character, it's merely about Yoda's LIGHTSABER SKILLS. There are other threads for those discussions.
Well, thats like saying that the US is slightly stronger than Iraq. Its a bit of an understatment. But yes, Yoda and Sids were equal. But because of fate and luck, Yoda beats Sids back. They are both so equal, and thats why they fly apart. Yoda gets the raw end of the deal, and drops a hundred feet.
Yoda never really got a chance to kill Sids outright. Sids may be an old man, but because of the power of the Dark Side, he has the ability to fight a polished up 700+ year master of swordplay and, frankly, come out on top.
Very easy to get carried away with this discussion and it's fall out.
Billy, I am posting my response to you in the Yoda/Sidious thread, where it belongs.
Except, of course, I cannot find it...??!
Been through 5 pages, tried a search, but no luck.
If anyone has a link to the Official Yoda/Sidious thread, I'd appreciate it.
He failed in his objective: "destroy the sith we must!"
Not one moment did the dark lord had the better of him. He schooled him in lightsabre-battle. In force powers he threw back everything. That's the big advantage of the sith lords. They're able to use agressive attacks with the force, while the jedi don't. Make sure you don't see the attacks of Lord Sidious as a greater display and mastery of the force
Well since I helped divert the topic I will bring it back. Yoda was not impressive with his lightsaber. I don't know how people say he could have beaten anyone when in the ENTIRE saga he does not land ONE BLOW on anyone with his lightsaber.
He did not put a scratch on Dooku. In fact the Count completely defended Yoda's Sonic the Hedgehog on LSD flippy attack. Same for Sidious.
Just not impressive, further degrading Yoda's character. It's a shame he ever used a saber to begin with.
He is also the only character NEVER touched with a saber, when all others were.
Master Yoda wanted it to continue to be a lightsaber- duel. When the pod almost hit him, he relied on his force powers. When Sidious saw that Yoda used his telekinetic powers against his, he used another power: force lightning. My conclusion: Sidious used diversity so he could stall the fight, for me it was clear that in every area of the fight Yoda was the better of him. But as cunning as Sidious was, he fought around the strengths of Yoda. Smart.
I absolutely agree with you, nothing to add!!
Why is everyone saying Yoda "schooled" Sidious in lightsaber fighting? They just went back and forth like any sword duel in cinema.
Its just back and forth tap tap tap action. There is no hint of dominance from either side.