Yoda's Position as Head of Council

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by vladimir_imp, Dec 10, 2005.

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  1. vladimir_imp Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2002
    star 2
    Before the prequel trilogy we understood that Yoda was "the Jedi master who instructed" Obi-Wan. That Luke understood (or was told) that he was a "great warrior". Also that "for 800 years" he had trained Jedi.

    From Luke's conversations with him, it was clear that Yoda had known Anakin, and had a lot of knowledge about how potential Jedi should and shouldn't be trained.

    I note, that we didn't know about the Jedi council, anything about the nature of the order (such as how many, how it was organised, where it was based etc.) or Yoda's position within it.


    Now, onto the subject of my thread. I wondered for the first time yesterday (whilst watching Yoda fight Palpatine in ROTS) whether Lucas could have achieved something more powerful with Yoda if he had not been the head of the council. I wondered what effect it would have if Yoda had been one of the least significant members of the order.

    Go with me for a moment. Imagine that the council comprised a group of very arrogant politician-like Jedi who could not see what was going on. Imagine that Yoda was the strange old Jedi who trained the kids and wasn't respected by the counci. Imagine that the council approved Anakin's training whilst Yoda warned them against it.

    Then when it came to Palpatine's turn, instead of Yoda fighting him directly, he could have watched as the arrogant elders were obliterated. Yoda would have known that he shouldn't even try to fight him, and the explanation for his hiding would have been more obvious.

    Imagine now the weight of the line "Do not underestimate the power of the Emperor or suffer your father's fate you will".


    Lucas has many morals running through SW, one of which is that small people can be as important or powerful as big people. By making Yoda the biggest and most powerful person on the council, I think that his effectiveness was undermined.

    Further, I found that Yoda's warnings about Anakin and the emperor in TPM, AOTC and ROTS were entirey diminished by the fact that he had the power to do something about his feelings - but he did not. If he'd been a lowly unrespected Jedi master whose sole job was to "train the kids", he could have been as forthright with his warnings as he'd liked, and the plot point about the arrogance of the Jedi order would have been much stronger.
  2. Alpha-Red Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2004
    star 5
    Hmmm...interesting. I like your idea.
  3. -Phoenix- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 2005
    star 5
    Very interesting indeed. Although Yoda fighting Sisious as a lowly Jedi would still be powerful.
  4. CaptainBinaca Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2005
    star 3
    Wow, I love the whole premise. Mace would have been perfect as the all-powerful head of the counsel, arrogant as he already was (not bashing here, I like the character). The Yoda v. Sids duel at the end could be replaced with Mace and that could be where Mace actually dies. The story would have to be further tweaked to allow for this though, i.e. Anakins turn. Maybe the Dooku duel could be moved up as the ultimate turning point.
    But anyway, it's one of the best ideas I've seen here
  5. Son_of_the_Suns Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 2, 2005
    star 1
    I think that'd have been a great idea. It helps fully illustrate the flaws of the old Order, it shows Palpatine's strength because having him kill the head of the Order would be effective especially if he did it unassisted, and it would have solved the problems many people he had with Yoda running from the Emperor as it wouldn't have happened.
  6. YoungAngus Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 7, 2005
    star 5
    I love this idea. Im mad you posted it because now Im gonna wish thats the way it was forever.
  7. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    Not to bash or anything, but I don't like that idea! I think that it would diminish the Jedi as "higher-beings", as I like to think of them...

    Besides, it wouldn't render Yoda more powerful if he didn't fight Sideous! now, at least he is depicted as equally powerful - although I was hoping he was even more powerful!
  8. Brandon Rhea Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2004
    star 5
    I think Yoda vs. Sidious still gives "Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor" even more meaning than your idea does. Because, Yoda in fact did underestimate the powers of the Emperor, so the line is more powerful with first-hand experience.
  9. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    I was never under the impression that there was a "head"
    of the council. I thought they ran on consensus...
    more of an oligarchy
  10. Brandon Rhea Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2004
    star 5
    Well, there is no head persay, but Yoda and Mace obviously have the most influence.
  11. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    yoda and mace are leading memebrs of the council,they obviously hold more water than the rest of the masters but when it comes to decision making they dont make them alone.
  12. Adm_Thrawn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2004
    star 4
    Yoda was indeed the official head of the Jedi Order and of the High Council. He was the Grand Master of the Order. Yoda was the "first among equals" in terms of his say on the Council. He was more than a mere Jedi Master whom held a lot of sway. Grand Master. Pretty nifty title.
  13. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    And this title comes from and is evidenced by????

    Mace basically overrides Yoda's caution about accosting Sidious.

    I don't think there is a single, consistent head of the council.
  14. ObiWanIsTheOne Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2005
    star 2
    Well thought out, but personally I do not like the idea. I liked Yoda being a prominent member of the Jedi Order. If he becomes a teacher that no one likes, that somewhat...undermines him. Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda in the OT seemed like good friends. The PT established the triumverant of the most powerful Jedi nicely with Yoda, Mace, and Obi. They did it well through the methods of having them as council members.
  15. vladimir_imp Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2002
    star 2
    Thank you to everyone for their replies. To be honest I was surprised at how many people liked the idea. Of course, the story is how it is, and all of this is frivolous daydreaming on my part! Still, it's kinda fun so I'll elaborate a little.

    The thought really came from two things that I didn't like so much in the PT concerning Yoda's character. First was his assessment of young Anakin in TPM. Cloudy future, not agreeing with his training etc. I appreciate and understand what is said about the council being democratic, but it didn't sit easily with me. I'd rather Yoda agreed with his training and saw his future as being good, than say it looked dodgy and train him as a Jedi anyway!

    Secondly there is Yoda's retreat into hiding. He fought the emperor and it was a draw which suggests that Yoda might have won. Particularly if Obi-Wan had been there with him. So why not return with Obi-Wan on another occasion? Why decide to go into hiding? I've seen similar comments on these forums with lots of good ideas why he still retreated. My idea is rather drastic I know, but to me it addresses these issues (and probably raises a dozen more!!).


    If we think about Yoda as a lowly unrespected Jedi master, it's then interesting to speculate on the other characters such as Anakin and Obi-Wan. Did they respect Yoda's outspoken position on these issues, or did they side with the council? If the latter, would there be a nice character arc for Obi-Wan who realises the errors of his ways and consults Yoda for advice - thus sealing the bond between the two?

    I accept what is said about the "do not underestimate the power of the emperor" line. I think that both scenarios work - first hand and observed. I like imagining Yoda making similar warnings in the PT, and watching as one by one the arrogant Jedi getting murdered / betrayed / tricked by Palpatine. When speaking with Luke, there'd be desperation in this line. Would Luke be the first to confront the powerful emperor and succeed?

    And finally, I don't think that anything I say would take away from Yoda's innate "power" or strength. Merely his position which is unrelated.
  16. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Interesting idea - but interesting only in the way it's interesting that Superman lands as a baby in the Soviet Union in an alternate comic called "Red Son". In other words, your proposal, while nice, only has any potency as an intriguing "what if". It's helpful and exciting only because it sheds greater light on why the official version works best. I'm coming jointly to Lucas and Yoda's defence here...

    First and foremost, Yoda's affinity with the Force is immense. While that is no less true in your proposal, it just wouldn't make any sense for someone so old and so wise to be in the shadow of fellow Jedi. Yoda has a unique aura and persona. Lucas understood this and gave him an importance and stature in the prequel trilogy that reflected it.

    I query the following: "I found that Yoda's warnings about Anakin and the emperor in TPM, AOTC and ROTS were entirey diminished by the fact that he had the power to do something about his feelings". He did? I feel you have totally missed Lucas' grand intentions in this regard. Yoda and the Order reluctantly took Anakin on after the unexpected death of Qui Gon at the hands of the Sith and Anakin's own prowess (whimsical though it was) in wiping out the threat of the assaulting Trade Federation. This whole concept is part of a larger tapestry: a ripple in the same lake of an idea. And that idea is simply this: the Jedi didn't like many decisions that they undertook (inducting Anakin, serving an increasingly corrupt Senate, doing Palpatine's bidding, leading Clone Armies in battle etc), but they made them all on behalf of democracy and freedom and justice itself. That they couldn't see the end result of those decisions ("Clouded this boy's future is!"; "the Dark Side clouds everything" etc) caused them endless worry, but couldn't motivate them NOT to do as they did as they were doing it. It's telling that the Jedi never directly refuted Qui Gon's insistence that Anakin was "the Chosen One"; they were always willing to believe it. They simply needed a catalyst to alter their initial decision: the return of the Sith - an utterly anti-democratic organisation - and a shocking and upsetting blow that the Sith were able to make (killing Qui Gon) was that catalyst. You must watch Qui Gon's funeral pyre scene again: that's where the Jedi (Mace and Yoda) now talk unequivocally of a Sith return, and Obi Wan tells Anakin, honouring his promise to Qui Gon and perhaps aware of a shift in Jedi feeling, that he "will be a Jedi".

    Lucas wanted to show - and succeeded in showing - the universal fallibility of mortal beings with the prequel trilogy. None of us has all the answers. Palpatine himself called the Force "the great mystery" and was ultimately undone by his own failure to see his arrogance (an inversion of his charge to Yoda: "Your arrogance blinds you") in the concluding installment of the saga. But you're proposing that one person, Yoda, should have had all the answers, or at the very least, have known things the Order didn't. That's completely wrong to me. Far from making "the arrogance of the Jedi Order [...] much stronger", your idea heavily taints Lucas' achievement by failing to respect what he did. Lucas showed showed the loftiest and deepest-thinking of beings as flawed and limited, and in doing so, rendered Yoda more sympathetic and more human. This has even greater implications still: it shows that people with the best of intentions and greatest intelligences, but who are nonetheless limited in power and perception, can be helplessly overwhelmed and defeated by those with the means, motive and opportunity. The Star Wars saga, particularly the prequel side of it, and fall of an entire galaxy, is more profound and believable as a result.

    It's not that I sense your proposal is baseless or mean-spirited through all of this. I don't. But I feel you haven't given Lucas his due or fully comprehended the magnitude of what he accomplished. There's no offence intended here, but excuse me when I call your idea of Yoda watching the inevitable happen, and letting the Jedi get wiped o
  17. vladimir_imp Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2002
    star 2
    Thanks for your post. Certainly well composed and considered. I would appreciate the opportunity to pick up on a number of points.

    Firstly, you are absolutely right that the note that I wished to strike with my original post was one of intriguing thesis as opposed to a proposal that I?d assumed would have been a better approach.


    And so to your points?


    You said ?I feel you haven't given Lucas his due or fully comprehended the magnitude of what he accomplished?. I tend to think that you give GL too much credit for an overwhelming black hole of hidden meaning and pathos of the story. Whilst I entirely agree that some of these points exist (or could exist) within the story, I often find a lack of consistency in GL?s storytelling which renders many theoretical subtexts void and creates an overall feeling of patchiness when assiduously dissected.

    Whilst your observations of the layers within Yoda?s story arc are interesting, I think the probability is that they are accidental or even superimposed by you as a viewer rather than GL as a writer. That is not to discredit them. To the contrary it is one of the most beautiful aspects of the SW tale that it can be interpreted in so many ways. But in this debate perhaps the words of GL in explaining his own saga are more useful.


    You said ?it just wouldn't make any sense for someone so old and so wise to be in the shadow of fellow Jedi?. I disagree. How many times do you see people of wisdom being ignored, or organisations or countries being run by dimwits? Would you suggest that the President and/or Prime Minister of every nation are the wisest (and oldest) that their country has to offer? Of course not. From another topical point of view don?t you think that society has forgotten the wisdom of the old, and that GL could have made a wonderful point here?

    Now, if the Jedi were truly an ideal organisation then I would agree with you. But if GL was making a point about the Jedi needing reform (as he himself says over and over in discussions about the PT), then I think your assertion is incorrect.


    You said ?This whole concept is part of a larger tapestry ? the Jedi didn't like many decisions that they undertook ? but they made them all on behalf of democracy and freedom and justice itself.? In reference to Yoda disapproving Anakin being trained yet allowing the council to do so.

    I must say that you cleverly wove other galactic events into your argument and muddied the water a little, but refocusing specifically on the issue of Anakin and Yoda, I do not see your point. The council?s decision to train him was unrelated to democracy, freedom or justice. You then suggest that because Qui-Gonn believed (and Obi-Wan promised), they went along with it. Well what about Obi-Wan believing that Anakin wasn?t ready for his own assignment (AOTC) or Obi-Wan believing that there was no motive for the Kamino cloner?s involvement in the assassination attempt on Padme? And as for promises, Anakin made quite a few of them as a Padawan and I can?t see the council going along with him so readily.


    You said ?But you're proposing that one person, Yoda, should have had all the answers, or at the very least, have known things the Order didn't.? I don?t like the word ?known? in this statement. Yoda said the future is always in motion, so I would not suggest that he knew anything that the council didn?t.

    However I was suggesting that he disagreed with the council, after all this is precisely what happens in the PT that GL finally presented. Yoda disagreed with the council on Anakin?s training. The only difference between the two is that whilst GL had him saying one thing and doing another, I was imagining a scenario where he tried to do something. You yourself come to the same conclusion about the importance of Yoda trying to do something and not just stand by.

    SW is full of differences of opinion ? it doesn?t mean that anyone is smug or knows more than anyone else. Look at the dialogue in ESB between Obi-Wan, Yoda and Luke.

  18. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    I'm not sure I entirely follow.

    If you're saying that Lucas has his interpretation, you have yours and I have mine, then I agree. I just find my interpretation of George's vision - which has been shaped by the thoughts of others who have similar interpretations - more cogent and appealing. Yoda was plainly being humbled when he was cast out of the Senate. It was a very symbolic end for him and his Jedi Order. But it was also a new beginning. And that is vitally important for a single reason: it showed that even those with the longest of devotions to a noble order and the greatest affinities for what that order is built out of can STILL be fallible and STILL fail. I much prefer the notion that absolutely no one - no one but Qui Gon, anyway, who was auspiciously killed in the opening chapter - had the kind of insight and autonomy to stamp their feet and say "this has to stop" or even quietly and humbly watch things come to pass. Everyone was really "in it together" and everyone had more to ultimately learn; it was just a question of whether fate/the Force was kind enough to let them survive, as it did Obi Wan and Yoda, to help them learn it.

    I'm not saying your version, despite my earlier unintentional strawman summaries, is without merit. The prequels are all about irony: it would have been hugely ironic if the little guy that no one really listened to ended up outlasting everyone else and training the saviour of the galaxy. One might say your version also affords the chance to consider how we shouldn't undervalue even the smallest and least assuming of people. I see all of that. But I also think your version, as stated above, terribly detracts, and in fact, destroys the idea that even a lofty figure like Yoda hadn't reached the apex of knowledge or wisdom. THAT says something at least equally - and, I think, significantly more - powerful. Additionally, it would make the arrogance of the Council all too obvious and too heavy handed if Yoda himself saw the folly of the Order with impunity. Excuse me for "giving Lucas too much credit"; it's my manner. I really DO think he knew what he was doing even if he hadn't mapped it all out from Day One. You are astutely defending your version and I Lucas'.
  19. vladimir_imp Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2002
    star 2
    Once again, I thank you for your comments.

    To clarify on this specific quote you are completely right about interpretation - particularly the interpretation of subtext.

    I'll give you one brief example. I like to think that Threepio and Artoo represent Anakin and Padme in the OT. I believe that the droids are symbolic guardians of the twins that seem to "be there" only when Vader, their real parent, is not. And I believe that Anakin building Threepio in TPM helps this.

    But whether or not subtext and hidden meanings like this were intended by Lucas is what I am questioning, and I feel that people perhaps give him too much credit for patterns or observations that they themselves have made. He has built a very strong story throughout the saga which I love like everyone else here, but I do think that sometimes we see what we want to see within it.


    I'd still disagree with some of your points. For example, that this alternate version "destroys the idea that even a lofty figure like Yoda hadn't reached the apex of knowledge or wisdom". Of course, that thematic point would be covered by all the other lofty individuals such as Mace Windu or another council head in this strange alternate vision.

    However I would be just as keen to "defend" Lucas' story in the same way as you. I'm not really saying that there is much wrong with it, only that to aid the passage of time it's interesting to think of other effects he could have achieved with changes to the PT that he delivered. And if that is our purpose then we have achieved our goal.


    So here's a conclusion to this post to pass even more time, perhaps with a frown more than a smile. If master Yoda was not the head of the council and performed more of an observational and narrational role (warning and casting doubt as we discussed above), it would open the possibility that the head of this new arrogant and outdated Jedi council to be none other than Sith in waiting Palpatine. It's unprecedented to have a Jedi master elected as Chancellor....
  20. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    No problem. Thanks for listening.

    And...?

    I now quote from Donald Trull as follows:

    While I agree it would be folly to attribute every last "nugget of symbolism" and threaded meaning down to Lucas, it doesn't mean that a specific aspect of the saga itself has no such value - if you perceive something as being there, well then, it's there. Simple as. Your droid interpretation is a perfectly valid example: you see it, you've explained why without fabricating anything, and so, it's there. On a personal level, I'm inclined to believe a similar thing. Certainly, I personally choose to interpret the "swapping" of R2-D2 nad C-3P0 from their respective owners to their other halves as there (Anakin builds Threepio and he ends up as Padme's protocol droid; Artoo saves Padme's ship and ends up as Anakin's astromech droid). Moreover, Lucas himself has actually said that the droids (Artoo, anyway) are the ultimate storytellers: they're the audience's guide, they fight the good fight and ultimately outlive and outlast everyone else in the story and tell it back later.

    You've misunderstood me, vladimir. I don't personally want ANY lofty individuals being cognizant of the problems with the Order - it makes the story more powerful, if, as Lucas chose to render it, the highest Jedi are peripherally aware of a decline, but can never quite put their fingers on it in time, and that they are all "in it together". It would be completely bizarre and plain wrong for me to see Yoda on the sidelines. Period. For what it's worth, Dexter Jettster somewhat fills your definition: he's a "lowly" chef/diner owner and yet he makes a valid criticism of the Order. That, right there, is an example of an unclouded outsider bringing a fresh and clearer perspective to the table. Yet Jettster is also no Jedi: he's merely "been around the block" and remained free of Jedi dogma - but in no way is he superior to the Jedi or Yoda. It's more subtle and meaningful that way, I feel: a stranger makes one prudent observation in a "blink and you'll miss it" moment. Add in the peripheral awareness of certain Jedi I talked of
  21. Darthdias Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2004
    star 3
    Yoda was considered the most powerful member, but I think that has more to do with his fighting skills and his wisdom, not his authority. Obviously the word of Yoda (or Mace) carried more weight than the others, but ultimately I think that every master had one vote that was equaly important. Yoda clearly had his missgivings about accepting Anakin in TMP, but was forced to pretty much because the majority of the council did not agree. At least that's how I se it.
  22. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Yeah, in and of itself, the Council was a democratic organisation, I think. Everyone who sat on it had a right to vote - and every vote, from what I can tell, was held equal to every other.

    I just want to add one further point on the Palpatine issue...

    4) How might Palpatine have gotten away with half the things he did if the Jedi knew he had a great affinity with the Force? They're never sure what's going on in the prequels until it's too late. For the longest time, they suspected nothing at all. When they did start to suspect something, they began to believe that the Chancellor was an addled man, perhaps somewhat given to greed, perhaps not, being manipulated remotely by another Sith Lord ("The Force can have a strong influence on the weak minded"). Their worst fear was that HE was the Sith Lord - but they clearly hadn't dared to think too much along those lines, and as such, had no contigency plan mapped out. When the issue of arrest came up, Yoda rightfully said they needed to take "great care", but also ended that particular discussion by saying so. Palpatine is meant to be a great mystery to everyone but himself - until it's too late. I think you've completely missed the boat on this one.
  23. JMaster Luke Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 7, 2000
    star 4
    I accually really like this theory. The wise old Jedi Master that 'others' think he has passed his prime. Other then Yoda it seems everyone else is young on the Jedi councle. Like that black girl in TPM. she looked like she was 30's. And that indian looking girl and guy in TPM. They looked 40's maybe 50. And of course mace windu.

    It seems that the Jedi council is run by a bunch of young hot shots. By having Yoda not being on the jedi council, but warning them would be very interesting and show how hot headed the Jedi have become. Since lucas has gone down that road by having yoda say that the Jedi are arroget (sp?)

    Having a wise Yoda whos not on the council ignored would be great.

    AND having this Yoda fight Sidious would be awsome. it'd show that Yoda even though he knows he's passed hs prime (physically) will try all he can to defend the galaxy from evil. He'll give it his all. And his losing to Sidious will be sadder.

    But i'm not saying i dont like the way we have it or that i WANT it to chance. But i can totaly see how making Yoda not on the councle work.
  24. vladimir_imp Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2002
    star 2












    Thanks to JMaster Luke for comments.

    In response to Cryogenic?s posts above:

    I?m glad that you commented on the Palpatine annex to my above post. I got the reaction that I expected (and wanted) and now completely understand why your posts have read as they do.

    When I created this thread I was mindful of GL?s comments on his own saga. You base your arguments on the subtext and symbolism that you see, admitting yourself that ?if you perceive something as being there, well then, it's there. Simple as?. Of course it?s not ?simple as? because if we disagree about what we see, then we can?t base our discussion on the symbolism within the films and have to resort to dialogue and action, and comments made by GL himself.

    I find that your argument rather arrogantly assumes that your perceptions are the definitive interpretation of the story, even going as far as to say (in another thread) ?George Lucas can SAY what he likes?when Lucas does say something on the issue, he seems to throw out red herrings?. How can we have a debate when you?ll even ignore what GL says?!! If your opinion is different to his then he is throwing red herrings!!

    You have reinterpreted the SW story into something that talks directly to you, not a problem by itself, but because your view is so strong and unchanging (see ?disagreement with GL? above!) you?re never really going to get anywhere on a ?what if? thread if (for you) the story is so perfectly harmonised with multiple layers of subtext.

    From my point of view however, when there are so many areas of the top-level story that don?t quite work (usual stuff ? see countless other threads!!), I find it impossible to accept that underneath this mismatch is a perfectly balanced kaleidoscope of hidden meaning that would entirely collapse if one aspect of the story changed.

    I have to reiterate that most observations of symbolism and subtext (on these boards generally) are clearly unintentional and do not stand up to scrutiny and interrogation ? including mine of the droids. As an example, I read the essay by Donald Trull that you directed me towards, and as expected the discussion quickly became spurious. On the first page he trips, stating ?[characters] who hate space travel [are] hesitant to accept change?. Doesn?t GL say that one reason for Anakin?s fall is that he cannot accept change? Did Anakin hate space travel? Maybe Mr Trull would answer ?George Lucas can SAY what he likes?? in the same way that others can only justify their interpretation by the same means.


    I can only come back to how people react to the way the story is presented in the films. GL has now created an ineffective and unlikeable Jedi Order which persists throughout the PT in being obtuse, arrogant and (frankly) unintelligent. This, of course, is key to the grand events he had planned to get us to the OT (empire, eradication of Jedi etc.). Unfortunately the audience are so much wiser which turns it into a pantomime with everyone shouting ?HE?S BEHIND YOU? to the doe-eyed Jedi masters, who sit scratching their chins whilst talking about ?clouds?. It was not the Jedi that people expected from watching the OT (I believe you said the same yourself in one of your posts).

    This rotten Order treats our hero dreadfully, taking him away from his mother, doing nothing to release her from slavery, disallowing Anakin to visit her when he senses her pain, forbidding Anakin to marry/love and disallowing him to be a master. At the time Anakin seeks advice from Yoda about Padme, the advice he is given is so useless that it sends him spiralling into the hands of Palpatine.

    Further, when Anakin is duped by the same guy who?s duped the entire Order for ten years, they (Obi-Wan and Yoda) decide to kill him. Why is this his punishment when his crime is the same as theirs?

    AS HEAD OF THE ORDER YODA IS ABSOLUTELY COMPLICIT IN THIS.

    So it follows, that it?s essential to show a character chang
  25. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Yet I made no less than four separate points - none of which you've actually refuted. You make it sound like you were baiting me, too. In your own words, you saw what you "expected" to see; dare I say it is YOU coming across as arrogant?

    Yes - yes it IS that simple. All art relies upon the personal reactions and subjective interpretations of those partaking in the absorption of the artwork itself. Discussion boards, such as this one, primarily exist so that people may post those reactions and interpretations, and all being well, provide reasoning to illuminate why they think and feel as they do. It's what I have continually strived to do in this thread. You, on the other hand, are obsessed with telling me that I credit Lucas too heavily and am adding depth and seeing intent where no such depth or intent exists. I don't know and cannot categorically "prove" that such things exist; of course not - but I feel they do and have made posts attempting to explain why. You, however, just keep chipping away at the same thing. Why, for example, did you not refute ANY of my points on your suggestion that Palpatine could have been head of the Jedi Order? I delineated my response into four points and you haven't dealt with any of them.

    Pot. Kettle. Black. I could say that YOUR argument arrogantly assumes that YOUR perceptions of Lucas' story and its perceived failings causes you to believe Lucas erred in showing the PT Jedi as "obtuse, arrogant and unintelligent", not to mention "rotten" and capable of treating Anakin "dreadfully". Well, the truth comes out now, doesn't it?

    My line about "red herrings" pertains to another discussion. Despite your insistence on looking to Lucas, I haven't seen you produce anything by him to support your position. But, for what it's worth, here's my take: Lucas' words are only one piece of a larger pie. He is capable of talking a little too simplistically about the saga at times, in my opinion, and of embellishing facts and contradicting himself. I do NOT ignore what Lucas says (I'm not even sure how you come to that conclusion) - but neither do I swallow what he says wholesale. "Red herrings" was, in retrospect, a slightly awkward and clumsy declaration; I simply meant that he seems a little coy/shrewd and deliberately avoids articulating every last detail on a given point.

    On the contrary, and as I said at the beginning of my first response: "Interesting idea - but interesting only in the way it's interesting that Superman lands as a baby in the Soviet Union in an alternate
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