Yoda's "Rule of Two" reference and continuity confusion

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by uRiel_Qel-Droma, Oct 26, 2010.

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  1. uRiel_Qel-Droma Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2010
    Hi all! First time post, LONG time MASSIVE fan!

    I've read a few posts on the Rule of Two and also one that questions it with reference to Yoda but this is a different angle, i believe.

    Now, we all know that Yoda says "Always two there are, no more, no less." and that this was officially established by Darth Bane. Ki-Adi-Mundi also says "the sith have been extinct for a millenia" which is a canon also adhered to as "Jedi vs Sith", set 1000 years prior documents the "end" of the Sith before Bane retreats into secrecy.

    Now, the error i belive is creaping through is that prior to Bane, the rule of two was not set in stone and post Bane the Jedi were oblivious to the Sith -SO- how could Yoda claim this? The last known Sith "numbered in thousands" with many ruling lords.

    Is it a little bit of canon error? Or might there be a little story untold? Either way, either Yoda or Mundi would be contradicted. Or can we hypothisise that the Sith only ever numbered 2 and whenever they were supposedly greater in number (Triumverate, Brotherhood of Darkness etc) the numbers made up of dark Jedi, with the leaders being those truely granted the power of the Sith teachings - which in my opinion is what really makes the Sith stand out amongst dark Jedi. A deeper power of the dark side.

    Arguements for this bestowing would include Marka Ragnos branding Exar Kun and Ulic Qel Droma as Sith and Asajj Ventress being dark side and working with the Sith, but never actually being "Sith" because of the rule of two.

    Any opinions!? Anything i may have overlooked?

    Hope it's interesting anyway :)
  2. DarthJohnkenobi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2004
    star 4
    "For nearly 1,000 years, the Sith watched and waited, doing their best to destabilize the Galactic Republic without revealing themselves. Around 188 BBY, during the Dark Jedi Conflict, Kibh Jeen told the Jedi that the Sith had survived and were operating under the Rule of Two, though his warnings were ignored or passed off as the rantings of a madman. Finally, one Sith Lord, Darth Sidious, under the guise of Senator Palpatine, was elected Supreme Chancellor and masterminded a devastating galactic war involving the Republic, and, as Emperor of the newly formed Galactic Empire, brought the Galaxy under the control of the Sith, bringing about their foretold revenge." Wookiepedia


  3. uRiel_Qel-Droma Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2010
    Ah, ok, a little bit of a leak there. But apparently "passed off". It still seems to me that Yoda's "always two" would need a little backing for him to state it so confidently. Do you think?
  4. Obi-Chron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2003
    star 4
    Well, not canon, but . . .

    as the Jedi Grand Master, Yoda surely had access to the SITH HOLOCRONS kept in the vaults of the Jedi library.

    Bane's holocron, and those of others (Plagueis?) surely would allude or refer to the "Rule of Two" to any Jedi strong enough to access and withstand a holocron's immense dark side presence.
  5. uRiel_Qel-Droma Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2010
    That's a good idea. Maybe these holocrons were recovered over time. However, with the Sith being so secret, would holocrons from this line even end up in the Jedi archives? I doubt Bane's or anyone else's would end up there without significant notice and action from either parties...
  6. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    As far as the movies go, the only person who ever mentions the rule of two is Yoda. It is never referred to before or after that scene. Therefore, one could, and probably should, assume that the Sith went by that rule before they went "extinct".





    Two - it's an old number
    /LM
  7. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    This never bothered me at all. I just like the line in TPM.
  8. oierem Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2009
    star 3
    Yes, and furthermore, it's never said to be an actual rule.
  9. Bens_Dad Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2010
    star 2
    This is the problem with trying to shoehorn the films - which are canon - into an EU sensibility - which isn't. Ergo, all that stuff about The Sith Empire et al, while entertaing in its own way I'm sure, has no real bearing on the films. Sorry, I see no error here with Yoda's rule of two.
  10. uRiel_Qel-Droma Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2010
    I agree with the films being the strictest canon. If anything, it's the EU that should bend to what the films portray
  11. Jedi Gunny Yahtzee Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    May 20, 2008
    star 8
    This. We're just supposed to believe that this is true, and always has been for as far as the Council/Yoda knows.
  12. EHT Manager: New Films

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    ^ Yes, this. The confusion only comes in from the EU content. Or, as I have said in other threads about this, Yoda found his old copy of "The Sith For Dummies" after Maul confronted Qui-Gon on Tatooine. :p
  13. shanerjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2010
    star 4
    Somebody clarify something though:

    Okay the JC believes the sith have been extinct for a millenium.

    Bane created the rule of two as a survivor of that supposed extinction.

    So how does Yoda know the rule of two exists if the sith are supposedly extinct just prior to the rules creation?

    Or is it really as simple as:

    Films good EU bad? :p
  14. uRiel_Qel-Droma Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2010
    This was my original point. But we should take the films as canon and the EU as having the real error. As it stands however, for the EU, perhaps a little retcon is in order...? Maybe an actual tale where knowledge is learnt of the new Sith rule by the council or Yoda.
  15. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    Or perhaps Yoda's comment was a blooper on Lucas'part.
  16. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    Just a reminder for us to steer clear of Canon "war" type comments.
  17. Alpha_02 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2010
    star 1
    It's not a massive stretch that somepoint during his rather long lifetime Yoda witnessed something that led him to believe the Sith had returned (or rather not been fully defeated) or that at some point they had tried a different method.

    OOU it is a simple way of showing the way the Sith now work and that the Jedi thought them extinct to viewers.

    I don't think this is really an EU created problem either, it was GL that created Bane and the Rule of Two and gave them to Terry Brooks to work into the TPM novel. Then presumably it was also a fault of the screenplay that nobody considered the lack of continuity between Yoda knowing the Rule of Two's existance (and Mace hardly seems surprised when Yoda says it) and Ki-Adi Mundi's complete disbelief that the Sith even existed at all.
  18. shanerjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2010
    star 4
    No you are absolutely correct. The TPM novel goes into specific detail about Bane and the rule of two. Brooks said in more than one interview it came right from George.

    I always imagined that the jedi underwent an quick investigation of some sort on Coruscant that gave them the information they needed and then towards the end that's why Yoda knows about it. But it is a stretch.


  19. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    The "official" reason or retcon can be found in the story of Kibh Jeen.
    He told the Jedi that the Sith were back and operating under the RoT...

    And for the record, Kibh Jeen's story has been tweaked since it first came out.
    IIRC, it was altered to make the Jedi(Yoda) look less moronic.
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