Yoda's Students and the Balance of the Force

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Dark_Faith, Aug 8, 2006.

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  1. Dark_Faith Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2004
    star 3
    Count Dooku and Luke Skywalker are the only Jedi in the saga that we know that have been trained by Yoda, as a one on one mentor and not just as a youngling. Dooku falls to the dark side. Luke overcomes it and ultimately saves the galaxy. Looking at it in a romantic and thematic way, can we see this as Luke redeeming Yoda as a teacher, where he failed with Dooku? I love the idea that there is a line of master-student: Yoda-Dooku-Qui Gon-Obi Wan-Anakin, Luke. Yoda trains Dooku. Dooku becomes a rebel idealist. Qui Gon inherits HIS rebellious streak from his master but he become enlighted by it where Dooku falls to the dark side. Qui Gon then passes this information on to Yoda who becomes enlighted in the true ways of the force and passes this on to Luke, who then with this knowlege saves the universe. Its a bit complicated but if you think about it it makes sense and provides a life lesson. Through failure you may find success. Yoda trained Dooku and Dooku eventually fell to the dark side, but Dooku also trained Qui Gon who become the only Jedi to discover the true path of the Jedi which is what ultimately restores balance to the force. When Luke overcomes the dark side, is it also, Yoda being redeemed as a mentor? Is it only through Dooku's independant nature that Qui Gon goes against tradition and discover the will of the force?
  2. Malikail Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2004
    star 4
    your ideas have a lot of merit, and there could be something to the redemption angle for yoda.

    It is worth noting that Luke is not trained in the same basic principles as Dooku was.

    before training Luke yoda was retrained by QG from beyond the grave.

    There is indeed a definate lineage that goes from Yoda-Dooku-QG-Kenobi-Anakin, but i see that line ending there.

    I see another line picking up post RotS that goes like this QG-Yoda/Kenobi-Luke

    In this way Luke is the first jedi trained only under QG's vision of the force, as mentioned at the opening of TPM this vision is different from the PT Yoda's.

    By the time of the OT Yoda has become a 3 foot tall Qui-Gon as a friend of mine joked, he sounds completely different in his approach to the force, he talks of the living force as Qui-Gon does.

    Yoda's growth and evolution throughout the saga is one of my favorite aspects.
  3. Dark_Faith Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2004
    star 3
    Hello, Malikail . Nice to see you in another forum. :)

    On the one way its cool how Yoda and Obi Wan eventually adopt the rebellious Qui Gon's views but on the other hand, it kind of glorifies Qui Gon too much. I mean he was on the right path, but he wasen't 'perfect', not in any sense of the word.

    But yes, its very clever how Lucas set the saga up, or set TPM and ROTJ. They really do work as bookends to the saga. The opening passages of TPM provide the wisdom that ultimately is passed onto Luke and is what causes Luke to overcome the dark side and the pretty neat thing here that many people miss; Is that Luke like Qui Gon is not perfect either. Luke has alot of moments in the CT where he walks the line of dark/good. Espically in ROTJ. Wearing all black as well too. This is where I think it all comes together because the Jedi finnaly heed their own advice and do not 'deal in aboslutes'. They realize that they all have dark sides but instead of denying them, they work with them and control them. This is the major difference of PT and OT Jedi. We can now assume that Luke will pass this on to his first student, which I assume from ROTJ will be his sister Leia and then the foundations of the New Jedi Order would be based on the Shaman of the Whills wisdom as inherited by Qui Gon as well.

    "Only a Sith deals in absolutes." The way Ewan plays this line is almost like a relization. Not only about Anakin but about HIMSELF and his Jedi Order. He realizes the flaw of the Jedi when he finds out a Sith like Darth Vader is saying something that his Jedi brethen would have said. He finnaly begins to truly accept Qui Gon's wisdom here at the end of ROTS and it cultimitates when Yoda informs him of Qui Gon's return. It works really nice if you think about it.
  4. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    I personally don't agree that much with this idea that Yoda adopted Qui Gon's ways to the extent that we are talking - or that there was a huge difference between them anyway.

    Yoda taught and used the living force as much as any Jedi. When Qui Gon responds to Obi Wans "but Master Yoda said I should be mindful of the future" with "but not at the expense of the moment - be mindful of the living force young padawan", I don't think that's just Qui Gon's view. I think he is passing on just what Yoda would say too.

    Yoda and other Jedi in the PT are constantly going on about using your feelings and thinking in the moment, especially Yoda and Obi Wan. Its a case of marrying the two aspects of the force - the living and the cosmic. The living part is what makes the Jedi intuitive nad they use this to suss out peoples feelings etc. The cosmic force is the special powers they get - be it the ability to see the future of telekenesis etc.

    I think the difference between Qui Gon and Yoda and the other Jedi, was just in how much they focused on the two aspects of the force and what they went by. But also in how they handled their duty.

    Its fair to say that Qui Gon focused more on the living force and used the cosmic force to aid his choices based on what was happening in the moment - but not to an extent that made him that much different from the other Jedi. The main point here for me was that he was a maverick - a risk taker so to speak. He didn't live by the rules of the Order or took that side of things too seriously - politics etc. Qui Gon blindy followed the will of the force, focusing on the living force to do this, without concerning himself with the risks.

    Now, luckily it worked out ok in the end. But a lot of bad things happened and it, Anakin bringing balance that is, very nearly didn't happen.

    The main thing for me that Qui Gon taught Yoda was how to retain his identiy and consciousness. I think all this other stuff is slightly exaggerated. Everything we see Yoda do in the PT is pretty similar to how he is in the OT. Its just a different situation so he doesn't appear to act the same. He has a different job.

    But if you watch Yoda train the younglings, give advice to fellow Jedi and make important choices, its very much based on both the living and cosmic force, and i'd say more so with the former. He is always the same Jedi who is simply defeated by the Sith but given a chance to make it right.
  5. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    On the one way its cool how Yoda and Obi Wan eventually adopt the rebellious Qui Gon's views but on the other hand, it kind of glorifies Qui Gon too much. I mean he was on the right path, but he wasen't 'perfect', not in any sense of the word.

    Qui-Gon would be the first person to agree with you in regard to his so-called "perfection".
  6. DarthWolvo23 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2005
    star 4
    A slight nitpick

    If you consult the OS databank, I think you will find Dooku was only instructed by Yoda as a youngling, then taken on by another master as his padawaan.

    This isn't made clear from the films, but all who Yoda instructs are referred to as padawaans (killed not by clones this padawaan but by lightsaber)
  7. Malikail Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2004
    star 4
    Thanks, i've checked out the Saga area for a while, i don't post here much. There just don't seem to be as many conversations i can really contribute to, but i like reading it.

    I certainly agree with both points about Qui-Gon and Luke not being perfect, in fact that is the point.

    I have always imagined after the party at the end of RotJ jedi Luke sits there and thinks for a few minutes to himself:

    "wow i just got owned by lighting, WTF?!? no one mentioned lightening before that, and what was i thinking, now i have to build another saber. I should have just turned it off and put it away if i was going to do something stupid like stand there defenseless.

    I have a lot to learn still...."

    In part i jest, but that last part is dead serious.

    It seems to me that this notion of Qui-Gon and Yoda being very similar is mistaken, both because of the tone with which Qui-Gon rebukes his padawan at the beinging of TPM and the tone with which Yoda speaks to Qui-Gon when he presents Anakin.

    It seems very clear to me in the films that there is a great friendship and respect between Yoda and QG, however there is also a great argument.

    I subscribe to the belief that in the PT films these two character are the polar opposites of philosophy, what the EU says i don't really care.

    It seems to me that both believe in each of these aspects of the force, the living and the cosmic however i think their perception is completely different of them.

    Yoda at the time of the PT is in my mind clearly concentrating on the cosmic force to the great neglect of the living force, this is why he chooses Dagobah as his hiding place.

    There is so much life and he needs to get back in touch with this aspect because the other failed him completely. At the end of RotS Yoda does not see the light yet but wants to see it and knows how to get there.

    Yoda seems to believe that the living force is constant and will take care of itself, his terrible advice to Anakin is a good example of how disconnected he is to feelings, and the value of the living.

    QG we don't have enough to pin down, but it is my oppinion that he believes that if the living force is nurtured, preserved and concentrated on then the cosmic force would benefit he sees a connection
  8. Master_Shaitan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2004
    star 5
    Could you explain this further please?

    I dont really see this. If we go through the entire PT and listen to everything Yoda says its very much in tune with focusing on the living force.

    No - thats an example of how disconnected Anakin is from the Jedi way. All Yoda tells Anakin to do is let go of his fear of loss. Its something all Jedu have to do so they can do their duty. Also keep in mind that Yoda didn't know the full picture behind Anakins problem - because Anakin kept it a secret.

    I don't see much evidence of that. Sure, its certainly Qui Gon's focus. But I believe all Jedi have that same focus. They were just more cautious where Qui Gon's maverick ways were seen and rightly so, as risky.

    Its more to do with the fact that Luke can't save them. He hasnt had enough training. He isnt ready to face Vader. He will make matters worse.

    But earlier you were saying Yoda was denying human nature by closing off the heart and now, when he saves other Jedi he is wrong as well?

    Personally, I think it was completely the right choice to save the two Jedi. He couldn't be sure that he would beat Dooku. And Dooku's death wouldn't end the war. It would just slow down the Seperatists progress. It was a very difficult situation. Yoda did what he beliueved to be right in the moment. Was Dooku a Sith? Was he the Master? Should he let the chosen one die? etc etc etc

    I very much doubt that!
    A) He may
  9. Malikail Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2004
    star 4
    we proceed from 2 different points, you assume yoda is right, since he was proven to be wrong in the long run, i assume he was wrong.

    in AotC i take kenobi and yoda at their word:

    "if we catch him we can end this war right now, we have a job to do"

    "if dooku escapes rally more systems to his cause he will"

    you have dismissed these two lines as i guess meaningless rhetoric

    Qui-gon was a maveric i agree, but he was also right.

    that makes every jedi who was not a maveric wrong.

    if they weren't wrong then Yoda and Kenobi would not require additional training at the end of RotS.
  10. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4

    In AOTC, Yoda had clearly identified Dooku as his former padawan:

    YODA: Fought well, you have, my old Padawan.

    I don't recall Yoda ever referring to Obi-Wan or any of the other Jedi characters as his former padawan.
  11. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    Yeah, but this goes back to "the Jedi master who instructed me" and what that really meant.
  12. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    Yoda had instructed a good number of Jedi, including Obi-Wan. But Dooku was the only one he had named as a former "padawan". He has never called any of the other Jedi characters as his "padawan". As far as we've seen, the only other character who can be considered as Yoda's padawan, was Luke.

    As for Qui-Gon making a dangerous choice - of course he would. There is no such thing as a "safe" choice, because life is not safe. It is dangerous. Just waking up and getting out of bed could gurantee possible danger. And the other Jedi made the "dangeorus" mistake in believing that they could play it safe.
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