Yoda's stupidest move...

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Eminent_Being, Jun 2, 2007.

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  1. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    This isn't about wins or losses. This is about the facts as presented in the film, which is Yoda knew that Obi-wan was better suited against Anakin. And that only happened because Obi-wan was prepared for it.
  2. JAWA64 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2006
    star 3
    Wins and losses are tricky in Star Wars. Obi Wan only kills Maul because Maul lost focus, Darth only wins because Obi Wan sacrifices himself, palpatine only dies because Darth is strong enough to throw him off a ledge when no one xpects, anakin only loses because he is angry, Yoda only loses because he is thrown to a worse place than sideous is, really there are only a couple of clear wins, Doooku vs anakin and obi wan, vader vs luke, and vader vs luke 2
  3. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    Fair enough - I still feel that space travel is inconsistant - but I can see if my point is poorly proven:)

    But surely it is quite different. OBW was, in that scenario, going after Sideous alone - and all Yoda knew was that the entire possee, with Mace was killed. So he had no idea how poorly the possee fared. Nor do I believe he knew that Mace bested him...

    Also, the possee was ultra-poor - they represent the opposite of powerful in how they were portrayed. Just because Yoda says that OBW isn't powerful enough, doesn't tell us that OBW is at the possee's level. Remember that the council voted for OBW to fight GG - and, this is important, not one of the possee members:p

    Another thing that strikes me as interesint, but yet off-topic, is how Dooku believed that with OBW's help, they could destroy Sideous. Sure, we don't know if he was lying or not, but there is a reasonable chance that he wanted QG's apprentice to fight alongside him and defeat his master... If Dooku and OBW should be able to do this, then I see no reason why Yoda and OBW could not...

    Control your arrogance? That's new:p
    Not even Sideous was able to control his arrogance, which was ultimately his downfall! OBW would still know all of Anakin's moves - and remember, since you're using Yoda as reference, that Yoda was fairly sure that OBW would defeat Anakin. "Fate in your apprentice misplaced may be" - and also that he dared to send OBW to fight Anakin...

    Anakin was always filled with arrogance, and OBW would, at that time, always be able to take advantage of that! In a year or so, things would be changed - but there is nothing that tells me that Anakin would ever be invincible as Palpatine says...
  4. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Methinks in less than 3 years time, an unsuited Darth Vader would have pwned them all...
  5. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Hyperspace travel period, is inconsistant with real world physics. Remember that parsecs in the film are labled as being different from the real world definition.

    Grievous is not a Sith Lord, much less the Dark Lord of the Sith. Grievous was beaten by Obi-wan because he had no fear, which had been Grievous main advantage in killing the Jedi that he had. He inspired fear in all but Obi-wan, Anakin, Yoda and Mace. Anakin and Mace had to stay and Yoda was the best Jedi to work with the Wookiees. That left Obi-wan. Also, Lucas says that Obi-wan isn't capable of defeating Palpatine.

    Dooku wasn't going to overthrow Sidious. He wanted Obi-wan at his side as a Sith. He lied to Obi-wan to get him to turn.

    But he would not see the attack coming and wouldn't be prepared for it. Thus he would die, because Anakin and Palpatine would both work together to kill Obi-wan.

    Anakin's arrogance was a result of his having embraced the dark side and become drunk on it's power. He wouldn't be that way when fighting Obi-wan, who is taken by surprise by his friend's betrayal.
  6. DarthApocalypse Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2007
    star 3
    Sinister you have severely misquoted me several times. I think you meant to quote Rossa83.
  7. Eminent_Being Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2007
    I highly doubt. Anakin can't control himself, not like Sidious or Dooku. They knew their limits, as did Yoda, Mace etc... I still think that Yoda was the greatest Jedi or Sith of all time, no ifs, ands, or buts.
  8. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    In what way? IMO, the AOTC definition of parsec is still a unit of distance, but significantly more than 3 light-years. I don't know what the "length"/"size" of the GFFA is supposed to be, however, nor do I know the density of stars, or the average distance between systems.
  9. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    Just because they are different from real world definitions doesn't explain the inconsistancies... Taking a trip to the outer rims can in some cases take as long as borrowing milk from your neighbour - but at other times it takes so long that the Republic does not have the resources to control them...

    If the possee members, as Jedi Masters, couldn't control their fear against GG, then I don't understand what Yoda is talking about. All well trained Jedi should not feel fear, and thus as masters they should be able to cope with the situation - but OBW was the best choice, and we see that GG had skills - not just intimidation wise...

    "He was too dangerous to be kept alive"...
    Something tells me that he might just have wanted that in the future...

    I'm not suggesting that OBW take on both sith-lords - that's just folly. I'm talking about a scenario where Yoda and OBW take on ONE sith-lord: Sideous - and the other scenario presented, not by me, with Yoda, Mace, Ki-Adi and OBW against Sideous - where you may argue that Anakin would turn, I can't understand why Sideous and Anakin would work together to destroy OBW - is he their greatest threat? And did they pause the other Jedi?:p

    But he was that way when fighting OBW, and he lost. I don't see how the situation would be all that different. Anakin was always power hungry - if Anakin had embraced the dark-side, would OBW be able to defeat him? ... you're not making any sense here, and normally you tend to do - please explain:)
  10. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    What other times are these? The films are consistent on this issue.

  11. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Well there isn't much out there concerning Parsec(s) in the GFFA, but here is what I found.

    A parsec was a measurement of distance. (Right on point Fenn)

    And this:

    By definition a parsec is 360?~60?~60/2?ÃŽ Astronomical Units (AU). It is a measurement of distance based on apparent star motion as observed from a particular planet. Since the Galactic Standard "AU", would be based on Coruscant's orbit (368 days) it would equal 150,349,907,726 meters.

    This makes a Galactic Standard parsec equal 31,011,894,586,294,500 meters.

    Note, that it is possible that the Coruscant Day, Hour, etc. are 0.75% shorter than Earth's, in which case the AU and parsec would be the same length as Earth's.

    Earth has a year 365.2424 days long and an AU of 149,597,870,691 meters. This makes an Earth based parsec equal 30,856,775,813,057,300 meters.

    Planet
    Earth Orbit (days) 365.2424 (*AU) 149,597,870,691 (*parsec) 30,856,775,813,057,300
    Coruscant Orbit (days) 368 (*AU) 150,349,907,726 (*parsec) 31,011,894,586,294,500
    * distance measured in meters

    ***

    So in essence, a GFFA parcec equals 31 quadrillion meters.
    (I think that's equal to 19 trillion miles) :-B
    Been awhile since I've fussed over a number that big...

    EDIT:

    A standard parsec in the GFFA measures out to exactly 19,173,511,575,559.54297 miles.







  12. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    My apologies for the mistake.

    Yeah, but it didn't take that long in the film to go from Tatooine to Geonosis. Padme doesn't say it took a day. She said it took a parsec to get there. We also don't know how much time pass as screen time and real time are subjective. Meaning Palpatine took hours to get to Mustafar, but it seems instantanious.


    None of these Jedi have fought in wars, much less against someone like Grievous who is not a Force user, yet is able to kick their collective asses. The Jedi who fought Grievous throughout the Clone Wars, save for only a handful, were afraid of him. Dooku taught Grievous to use fear against the Jedi. Mace didn't go to face Grievous because he had to stay and wait for Sidious to show his hand. He also had a weakness in that he's too agressive. Yoda had to go to Kashyyyk. Anakin was needed to watch Palpatine. The Jedi Posse stayed not because of fear, but because there needs to be at least five Council members to vote on matters. That left Obi-wan. Shaak Ti lost to Grievous twice and thus she was not suited to lead this mission.



    Dooku never had any ambition to overthrow Palpatine. That's why he didn't have a problem with trying to turn Anakin. He thought that the three of them were to work together. He just didn't know that Palpatine had planned to use him as a sacrifical lamb.


    Sidious would kill Obi-wan as fast as he killed Kit Fisto. That's why Yoda told him to go fight Anakin, that way the Sith couldn't gang up to take them on. So long as they were separated, which is known as divide & conquer, they have a better chance at surviving. The scenario I was talking about, Anakin fights Obi-wan when he is caught off guard, which allows Palpatine to come up and stab him in the back, as he's too busy fighting Anakin to sense the other danger and defend against that. Then Anakin joins Sidious in dispatching Mace and Yoda.


    When Anakin fought Obi-wan, he was filled with hatred for his former Master. He just embraced the dark side and was drunk on it's power. He was also frustrated at his inability to defeat Obi-wan. So when Obi-wan said don't try it, Anakin decided that he would not listen to his former Master. Obi-wan had the advantage. He was waiting for Anakin's attack and could take him down. This situation would be different. Anakin would not be frustrated at his inability to kill Obi-wan. He would not be drunk on power. He would not be cut down if he tried to jump ove
  13. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    Sinister: as always, I think we just have to disagree. Not that I don't like debating with you - you're a fierce opponent, much more so than Coleman Trebor and Kit Fisto:D

    But instead of defending the saga as it stands, I'm trying to debate it. Your points are as valid as mine, if not more so. But I firmly believe that OBW would last longer against Palpatine because of his record. He is able to defeat a sith lord (albeit slightly lucky), he is able to hold for a while against Dooku - and he is able to defeat Anakin and GG.

    Fisto could've gone instead of OBW to fight GG, and OBW could've been behind to cast his vote...

    Moreover, don't forget that if Anakin had fought OBW right after he turned, he would be tormented even more by his feelings for the Jedi. Fighting OBW at that time could've proven very difficult as he had not yet delved deep into the dark-side.
  14. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Obi-Wan would probably be overwhelmed by the raw power of Sidious' lightning.
  15. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    "Rossa, my apprentice... you disappoint me!" :p

    [image=http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n107/SithStarSlayer/palpatinelightning9ui.gif]
    Fenn, it probably would'nt even get that far.
    Either way, I think Palp's would make quick work of the Jedi we all know as Ben.

  16. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Victories mean diddly squat. If it didn't, then he would've fought Palpatine. He only won against Maul because the latter made a foolish mistake as did Anakin. Dooku pwned Obi-wan twice and didn't even break a sweat. And unlike Dooku, Palpatine would make sure Obi-wan died. Palpatine is even stronger than Dooku, which gives him the advantage. It'd be a wholesale slaughter and Yoda knew it.

    Kit Fisto was no match either, nor was he as experienced with Grievous. Obi-wan was the only Jedi Master on Coruscant who not only faced Grievous, but was not afraid of him. It would do to send someone who had not faced Grievous before. And Kit Fisto's record of combat missions is not as perfect as Obi-wan's was. Mace knew that Obi-wan was the best canidate as did Yoda, which is why they nominate Obi-wan.

    Padme is more important that Obi-wan and if Obi-wan is there to harm Palpatine, then he must die and Anakin will not hesitate. Especially if Palpatine reminds him that Obi-wan is responsible for his mother's death, by ignoring him. And it was Obi-wan who kept him back for so long until he couldn't keep him down any longer. Obi-wan didn't even want to train Anakin in the first place. He had to make a death bed promise.
  17. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6


    Obi-Wan would have met the exact same fate as Mace did, if he had gone with the posse. As noted above, there was too much there at Palpatine's disposal to raise Anakin's level of anger the right way. Anakin would have been free from distraction, completely ticked off and hell-bent on destroying Kenobi. We would have seen a repeat of what happened to Dooku.

    AnaVader failed on Mustafar for two reasons: He was over-emotional over Padme's perceived betrayal. And I believe he wanted to punish Kenobi for it, instead of just killing him swiftly.
  18. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    But Obi-wan will remind Anakin that Palpatine has been lying to him and everyone else ever since he became Supreme Chancellor, that he's been trying to get Padme killed for years by sending assassins after her, and that Palps was in league with Nute Gunray(one of the assassins trying to kill Padme), Count Dooku(the man who chopped off Anakin's arm) and Qui-Gon's killer (Darth Maul).

    Add to the fact that Anakin discovered that his "good friend and mentor" is a Sith Lord would tell him that Obi-wan is correct and that PalpSidious is the real threat to Padme. That will destroy all trust and faith that Anakin had for PalpSidious therefore he will allow Obi-wan to destroy Palps.
  19. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    There's a mistake in there. Assassins were sent once and by Nute Gunray, not Palpatine. Palpatine can claim that he is not responsible for the actions of Nute Gunray.


    Anakin knew all these things, when Palpatine revealed himself. But they didn't matter because Palpatine has offered him something that the Jedi cannot. Anakin doesn't care about anything other than himself. He wants Padme to live and nothing Obi-wan says will change his mind. Palaptine will remind Anakin that the Jedi will kill him and therefore, kill Padme. Just as Obi-wan killed Shmi by telling Anakin that dreams will pass in time and not to worry about dear old mom. He will also point out that the Jedi never cared about him, because if they did, they would've made him a Master and not used him as a pawn. They would've freed his mother so that she wouldn't have been taken and killed by the Tuskens. Obi-wan wouldn't have held him back for so long. Obi-wan has also expressed that he has no love for senators including himself and Padme, therefore he is just as guilty. He will remind Anakin that he cannot really trust the Jedi, because they're hypocrites with their "Do as I say" attitude.
  20. MASTER_DOODOO Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2005
    star 4
    yah, I agree Sinister. This is kind of bad writing by Lucas. Why wouldn't the jedi help Anakin find his mom. Yah, attachment is forbidden. But it's not like Luke has to disown his sister or something. It's ok to care about your family and friends. This has always bugged me.
  21. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    I'm not turning this into that discussion. I'm talking about what Palpatine would use against the Jedi to get Anakin to turn.
  22. MASTER_DOODOO Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2005
    star 4

    Well, I'm just saying that I see what you're saying about Anakin not getting the help he needs from the jedi when it should be so obvious what to do.
  23. DarthDubya05 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2005
    star 4
    Not to bring the cartoon into this, but Yoda was able to push a several ton transport H-shaped ship back several feet, and made it crash into another, as well cause 2 other H-Ships to crash into each other in mid-air. those are several ton ships here.

  24. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Right, but those contain exaggerated uses of the Force.
  25. DarthDubya05 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2005
    star 4
    Yeah, i know, but if that's the case, it would make that Pillar look like a pillow.
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