Yoda's trip to Kamino

I dont know if it sates it anywhere but I was wondering if Yoda took a couple of Jedi with him to Kamino to get the Clone army. The reason I ask this is because I saw Jedi on the ground before the airships that had the arena survivors landed. It makes sense if he did to at least have some Generals to brief the clones and to lead them just in case their were no more Jedi left in the arena.

 

To heck with a few Jedi, I hope he took a Republic credit card...

 

Just imagine if the card was declined...

 

Werent the clones prepaid ?

 

I'm thinking Republic credits work very well on Kamino....


But really, what was Yoda, and the Jedi, thinking? Oh! A surprise army! Brilliant! And gosh, we can use them just in the nick o' time!

The Sith are back and now there's a surprise army tailor made just for you? C'mon! How can anyone accept that?

 

Only a hundred Jedi went into the arena. The other eighty some Jedi were on the ground or in the air.

Because one of their own apparently made the Clone Army, knowing that the Jedi's rigid attitude would stop them from doing what needed to be done.

 

Hmmm. If the Jedi had such a rigid code, wouldn't that cause them more alarm that one of their own (who was murdered) bought this army?

I think that this plot hole in the PT - the Jedi using the clone army - is just something that we have to suspend disbelief for, as no amount of rationalization could really explain it.

 

I'd say it's obvious how blindly tethered the Jedi are to the Republic. It's been made expressly clear that alot of Jedi did not agree with using the clones, and left the Order as a result.

The situation is simple, and lethal:

-The Separatists have amassed a huge army.

-The Jedi are not soldiers.

-The clones were the only immediately available soldiers, as this entire situation simply appeared out of nowhere.

-Therefore, the Jedi had two choices: One, watch the CIS either conquer or leave the Republic. Two, use the army. Option one was clearly unacceptable, especially after they find out Dooku is a Sith. Therefore, they had to use the army.

Basically, there's simply no way the Jedi are going to fight and win against an army of millions of droids by their lonesome.

 

Rmemeber what Lama Su said to Obi-wan. The Clone Army was created for the Republic. As far as the Jedi were able to ascertain, Sifo-Dyas forsaw the return of the Sith and tried to help the Jedi. But unfortunately, Dooku found out and killed him to prevent the Jedi from using the Clone Army.

 

Boba and Sidious:

Both of you make good arguments (which I wouldn't have thought possible for this plot hole!), but they really don't stand up to too much scrutiny.

If Sifo Dyas foresaw this giant civil war, then the Jedi would have expected him to simply tell the council. Even if Yoda and the Jedi thought, "Well, he didn't tell us because he might not have trusted us to act on his vision of the future", then they'd still be wondering how the hell he got the money for this monstrous army.

As for DarthBoba's argument that the Jedi were in a bind and needed to go with the "least-worst scenario" of utilizing a suspect army, that's fine....but they Jedi would still be trying to figure out what where it came from. Wouldn't the Kaminoans have some record - video archives or at least a memory - of when the army was ordered?

When you couple this miraculous appearance of an army - just when they're needed - with the fact that the Sith were known to be rising again (after Darth Maul had been killed)....there's just no way around the fact that it's a huge plot hole.

 

Sorry, but it's not a plothole. A plothole is an event in a film that is later directly contradicted without any explanation. Since there is nothing explicitly stated earlier in ATOC that directly contradicts Yoda's (or the Republic's) ability to take possession of the Clone Army, then it simply isn't a plothole. Not understanding why a character makes a certain choice is not the same thing.

It would, however, be a plothole if, for example, the Kaminoans told Obi-Wan that the first battalions would not be available for some period of time that is clearly longer than the time between then and when they arrive on Geonosis, or that the army could only be turned over to Syfo-Dias since he placed the order. Those two plot points would then be directly contradicted by Yoda taking the clones to Geonosis.

 

So my question is, the 10 years between TPM and AOTC, the Jedi just basically forgot about the sith? They could have easily figured it out, I think. Another thing is, they should have seen order66 coming, because didnt they notice jango was working with dooku, and the clones were cloned from jango. The opperation I would have done was send in all the clones first, seeing that it was a droid factory.

 

1. Where would you start to look for the Sith? Gunray doesn't know jack about Sidious' identity, Maul is dead. No leads.

2. They don't know Dooku=Tyranus. They know he's a Sith Lord, but when does anyone ever tell the Jedi Dooku's Sith nickname is Darth Tyranus? Never. All they know about the person who sent Jango to the Kaminoans is that he was named Tyranus. And once again: There were no other options besides using the clones. It was far too late to create a normal army, and the Jedi are fricking blind by this point anyway-"blind are we if the creation of this clone army we could not see." Their dependence on seeing the future is what shafted them; events were happening too swiftly for them to do anything beyond react.

 

In the aftermath of the Battle of Geonosis, Yoda returned to Kamino to investigate the Clone Army. His conclusions which he discussed with Obi-wan in private, was that Sifo-Dyas forsaw the return of the Sith. He went out and found someone to help him create this Clone Army. This man named Tyranus that Jango spoke of. Tyranus funded the Clone Army and recruited Jango Fett. Dooku found Sifo-Dyas and killed him, as well as erasing Kamino to keep the Jedi from finding it. The Jedi did not know that Dooku was Tyranus. This only comes out in the novelization for ROTS. That's why the line "I was recruited by a man called Darth Tyranus" was changed to "I was recruited by a man called Tyranus". The Jedi concluded that this was what happened and there was nothing to contradict it. In reality what had happened was that Sifo-Dyas told Chancellor Palpatine, who suggested that he create an army to help the Jedi. Dooku was then put in charge of handling the rest as a test of loyality.

No, the Jedi did not forget about the Sith. In ten years, across a large galaxy, the Jedi could not find the Sith. They never suspect that the man they were looking for was right under their noses, using a trick designed to hide his presence in the Force.

 

Darth Boba
Therefore, the Jedi had two choices: One, watch the CIS either conquer or leave the Republic. Two, use the army. Option one was clearly unacceptable, especially after they find out Dooku is a Sith. Therefore, they had to use the army.

Problem is, the jedi didn't know Dooku was a sith until after they used procured the army. So your contention they "had to use the army" because he was a sith is moot. They didn't know at the time.

 

You're right Shane. They didn't know that. But they did know from Obi-wan's report that the Separatist Council was preparing to go to war. And they did know that Nute Gunray is behind the assassination attempts on Senator Amidala.

 

to quote myself: especially after they find out

They didn't know, but once they knew, they didn't have any other options left. Dooku isn't negotiating peacefully, from their point of view.

 

Sifo-Dyas did not order the Clone Army from Kamino. Argh...

How is this known to be a fact?

By simply listening.

We know that the Lama Su tells Obi-Wan that the Clone Army was ordered by a Jedi Master who called himself Sifo-Dyas. We also know that Lama Su tells Obi-Wan that this same Sifo-Dyas handpicked Jango Fett himself (as the original biological model). Finally, we know that Jango tells Obi-Wan that he was recruited by a man called Tyranus.

Because we know that Tyranus is Count Dooku and that Dooku was a disciple of Darth Sidious, the man who was ultimately behind the ordering of the army, we know the truth...that the real Sifo-Dyas had nothing more to do with ordering the Clone Army than did the Jedi Order itself (as most likely he was already dead).

One doesn't have to be trained investigator to know this but yet it is a fact that all too many fail to properly connect the dots.

 

The Jedi Order were afraid of announcing their weakness to the Senate. They believed that doing so would only create more tyranny against the Republic they had become so attached to.

The problem is, to do what was right and correct in this situation, the Jedi Order would have had to announce such inabilities to the body of democracy that they sought to serve.

Instead the Jedi put themselves above the democracy through their overconfident belief that they could discover the truth behind the plot before the plot would come to its conclusion.

The irony of it all is that the Jedi Order couldn't come to discover such a truth despite having the answers squarely in front of them.

It is not hindsight to say that the Jedi Order should have rejected the thought and the use of this Clone Army BECAUSE of its origins. If this meant that the Republic would fall under a period of attack by an overwhelming enemy droid force, then so be it.

The largest and most important battle in this entire "war" did not involve one single droid or one even a single Clone Trooper. The battle to be won was the battle of knowing who Darth Sidious was and how best to defeat him.

Had the Jedi Order rejected that Army based upon its dark origin, and announced such a discovery to the Senate, then a confrontation with Darth Sidious would have been hastened as Sidious was the one who needed the Army, not the Jedi (and he needed it not for any war against the Separtist as we know now).

By telling the truth, the Jedi would have forced Sidious to take measures other than what he had intended. Sidious did not have a majority control over the Senate at the time and gaining enough votes for the Army would have been difficult if the Army's origin was known as a Sith plot.

Attacks from the Separtists would have, no doubt, ensued but again, the larger and more important battle lay outside of any Separtist movement.

The Jedi were overconfident and blind and, as a result, they, like their precious and corrupt Republic, were driven to the point of near extinction.

 

Actually, Sifo-Dyas did create the Clone Army. Lama Su was told by Sifo-Dyas, that he was going to recruit a template. But then Dooku killed him as a test of loyality by Palpatine, which lead to his being branded Darth Tyranus and then he went out to recruit Jango. Lama Su and Taun We both assumed that Sifo-Dyas had sent Jango Fett.

But that was the problem. By not doing anything, they were going against their core beliefs in protecting the innocent from harm. To maintain peace and justice, ideals which they swore to uphold until their dying breath. That's like asking a police officer to come to the aid of a person, because someone else was invovled and that person had to be found first, the officer does nothing. The Jedi were in a catch-22 situation. Either action would have dire consequences and they chose to defend the innocent from those who seek to rain down destruction.

 

They don't know Dooku=Tyranus. They know he's a Sith Lord, but when does anyone ever tell the Jedi Dooku's Sith nickname is Darth Tyranus? Never.

Around the time of Yoda's trip to Kamino, the Jedi Council did not know that Dooku was a Sith Lord. They knew that he was part of the Separatist movement and had captured Obi-Wan. It wasn't until Yoda's duel with Dooku that they knew he had slipped to the Dark Side. I don't know when they found out that he was a Sith Lord, but it certainly wasn't by the end of AOTC. Just because a Jedi or former Jedi had succumbed to their inner darkness did not automatically make him or her a Sith Lord. Why do people think otherwise?

 

Because Lucas has said that a Dark Jedi is an oxymoron. You're either a Jedi or a Sith. There's no in-between which is what a Dark Jedi is in the eu. This is why we never saw any in the PT films and why Lucas went out of his way to tell us Grievous wasn't a Sith or a Dark Jedi, much less that he could use the Force.

 

No.

Lama Su clearly states that the man who ordered the Clone Army for the Republic was the same man who provided its biological template. And we know that person to be Count Dooku.

Dooku did kill the leading member of the Jedi Council and it was done as a test/demonstration of loyalty but the death of Sifo-Dyas also served a specific (scapegoat) purpose ala the erasing of the Kamino files in the Jedi Archive.

All leads in this case are squarely on Dooku's shoulders and for good reason. He served to be an exemplary student of the Sith for such a short time of his darkside instruction.

 

For Yoda it was like finding a $20 in an old coat.

 

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Gunray does know how to contact Sidious and at some point, pre TPM, either he or Sidious contacted each other and made some sort of deal. If the jedi would have questioned Gunray they would have learned a great deal, like Sidious being able to controll the senate and other things. So I disgree that Gunray does not know anything about Sidious.
If nothing else he might have pictures of Sidious and he does look rather like Palpatine.

First, nothing of this is IN the films, nothing like this is even hinted at IN the films so unless you read some EU books you would have no way to conclude this.
Second, the info IN the film AotC does suggest that the jedi think that Sifo-Dyas DID NOT order the clones as he was already dead at that point. And this is NEVER disproved later in the films or in RotS.
All we have is some unknown jedi that places an order for a large clone army for no apparent reason. The jedi even have strong doubts that he even was behind the order. Then you have Jango being involved in BOTH sides of the war.
At the end of AotC the jedi knows that Jango worked for Dooku and he was the templeta for the clone army and yet they never question this or find it odd.
I agree that events in the later part of AotC forced their hand and they did not have very appealing choices, BUT the fact that they never questioned the clone army, how it came to be or the Jango-Dooku connection, this makes the jedi grade A idiots.
They have enough information to see that something does not add up and they should have questioned things or at least wondered aloud about it. They did not and this makes them seem like total retards.

Lastly one does wonder what the jedi actually DID between TPM and AotC? Did they question Nute Gunray?
We do not know. Did they search Mauls ship? We do not know. Did they look into what was going on in the senate?
We do not know.
From what we do see it seems that the jedi have done absolutely nothing with regards to the Sith. They do not even seem to have told Anakin what he should do, him being the chosen one and him being the one to destroy the sith.

Regards
Nordom