Yoda's trip to Kamino

Except again, it was Sifo-Dyas who placed the order. It was Dooku who recruited Jango. Lama Su was told by Sifo-Dyas that he would handle the recruitment, but he didn't get to as Dooku killed him.

Except Dooku made sure that Nute never informed the Jedi of all this.

They had bigger things to worry about than the Clone Army. Dealing with the Clone Wars were more important than finding out, if you just go by the films.

You're to assume that they did try to find the Sith and found nothing. You're to assume that they searched Maul's ship and found nothing. Mace said that they would keep an eye on the Senate and in ROTS, we find out that he and the Council suspect Palpatine of being problematic. Anakin knows who he is and what he has to do, he just doesn't care. Only about Padme.

 

Again, the Jedi's continued use of the Clone Army AFTER it became clear Dooku was involved AND he was a Sith is either unforgivable, or simply bad writing.

Why in the world would you have any trust in a magic army that you know the Sith were involved with? In fact, why would you not immediately shut it down?

Yes, the Seperatists are attacking. But the Republuc had enough people -- hold a draft. Make joining the defense a high paying job. Lord knows the Republic had the means to create a miliatary infrastructure -- ships, bombs, guns, etc. Unless someohow all those things were magically cloned as well.

With or without the Clones, the Republic is weak at the end of AOTC -- except, we see a fleet of warships taking off -- where did those ships come from? Again, Kamino? Or the Republic?

If it's just a question of bodies to fill some armor and shoot a gun, while the Republic may not have had a standing army before Genoisis, they could have rallied millions of troops after, thus invalidating the need to use the Clones.

 

1. The Jedi did not know that Dooku was involved in the creation of the Clone Army. They had assumed that Dooku simply hired Jango Fett, because he was considered the best bounty hunter in the known galaxy. Ten years after he had been hired by a man called Tyranus to be the Clone Army template. Having the name Tyranus doesn't imply that you're a Sith. Another thing about Jango was that he was also willing to outsource to Zam Wessel, who made the assassination attempts. As far as the Jedi concluded, Dooku never knew and Jango never opted to tell. Being a mercenary, he worked for both sides for profit. When Obi-wan attempted to arrest him, Jango fled to his other bosses.

2. The time it took to properly train non-clones was a factor in the Republic and the Jedi using the Clone Army, which had several years of intense combat education. The Republic had the Judicial Corps, but they were not large enough to fight alone. The fleet of Republic battle cruisers were all that existed to defend the Core worlds and quell minor conflicts. You cannot just hand someone a gun and say shoot. Every army has to have some form of combat eduction so that they don't blow their own foot off. Much less the foot of their fellow soldiers. The Clonetroopers were trained for combat on a multitude of worlds. As the Clone Wars progressed, the Jedi and the Clonetroopers recruited resistence cells on certain worlds that were occupied by the Confederacy. Such as the case on Ord Cestus and Dac/Mon Calamari.

 

It doesn't seem to require a great deal of training to handle a battle droid. RogerRoger's were mechanical fodder, and the Republic had more than enough people to act as fodder on their side. You make it seem like Clone training was somehow required to fight, when in fact, it's really only bodies and gear that's needed, especially against an attacker. See: USA 1941 for evidence of how a Republic can "gear up" when needed. The Republic clearly had the gear (ships, guns, armor, etc) and the people. Raising an army would have been simple if the Senate authorized it. Which, clearly, they would have.

The Jedi were completely and incredibly foolish to rely on the Clone army, and as I said before, this is either unforgivably dumb, or poor writing.

I tend to think it's poor writing. Better to have Palpatine secretly order the Clone Army when he first becomes Chancellor, and, in AOTC, the Senate retroactively agrees with his foresight to create the Army that is now so needed. He would appear to be a brilliant tactician and it would all be legit. The plot would play out the same for the most part.

The mystery of the creation of the Clone Amry is fun, and it's intriguing trying to figure out Dooku's involvement. But once it became clear this was Sith business (and I'm sorry Sinister, but Jango just "happening" to be the clone template and the personal guard to Dooku, Sith Lord, is too much to swallow IMO.), using the Clones is wrong strategically, morally, and fictionally...

 

As a member of the military, I can tell you personally that if you want real soldiers as opposed to cannon fodder, you need time to train them. Basic training in western countries is usually 3 to 6 months; even then, new soldiers are generally pretty clueless for about a year after that.

In other words, the clones are the only viable option the Republic had available.

as for Jango being Dooku's bodyguard-so? They've got nothing linking Dooku to being Tyranus.

 

Normally I'd do this the other way around, but I think it makes better sense this way.

QFT.

Ah, but there's more to it than just "gearing up." Those new soldiers following Pearl Harbor had to be trained, just as DarthBoba pointed out. They had to be conditioned to endure the rigors of military life. They had to be taught how to use guns, explosives, operate machinery, etc. DarthBoba knows his stuff. This isn't some fantasy film, this is real life. The Clonetroopers were all taught to use blasters, explosives, recon, piloting, first aid and guerilla warfare. They had to fight in all kinds of enviroments. Desert, rocky, underground, sky, zero G, underwater, snowy, jungle, etc. There's issues of strategy. You've got General Grievous, Durge, Asajj Ventress and a host of others who lead the campaigns on many worlds. They had the ability to think whereas the Droid Army didn't. That's how come the Clone Wars lasted three years.

The Jedi were trusting. They sensed nothing wrong and because they had control over the Clone Army, they had no reason to suspect something sinister.

Ah, but it is better to frame the Jedi. That way you can shift the blame to them years later and Palpatine has clean hands.

Jango wasn't Dooku's personal bodyguard. He's a Force user. They don't need bodyguards. He was there with his client, Viceroy Nute Gunray watching the Jedi who had been giving him hell, get his just desserts. And it is not clear to the Jedi that the Sith created the Clone Army, nor had any control over them. That was the brilliance of Order 66. The Jedi would never sense it coming. They would never suspect a betrayal. They would not sense the danger until it was far, far too late.

 

I don't mean to make light of military training. I know what's involved. But tell me -- what would take longer? To conscript and train an army to put down the Seperatists, or to build a military infrastructure from scratch? All the ships, guns, carriers, bombs, etc, the Republic used throughout the war had to be built as the Seperaratists were first attacking. Unless, again, did Kamino also build all that for the Republic as well?

I've never heard that is the case. So, regardless of the Clones, the Republic had to ramp up fast in order to defend and then attack the Seperatists. Building an army could have been done at the same time, not using clones. Each planet had defense forces already, right? They could not be invididually mobilized at the same time?


As for not tying Jango to Tyranus. Yes, you're right, no where in the movies do we know if the Jedi knew Dooku's Sith name was Tyranus. But surely, they must realize he has a Sith name? Did they try to find out what it was? Regardless, there is more than probable cause to highly doubt the nature of the Clone army when you consider:

Jango - template of Clones.
Jango - tried to kill Amidala
Jango - flies directly to the Seperatist gathering on Genosis to stand by Dooku's side.

And that's not even going into the whole Syfo-Dias mystery,


Hmm. No reason to doubt the Clones? I don't buy it.

 

I won't answer the Jango-Dooku stuff, beyond that Jango's a bounty hunter, and as such, is loyal to whomever pays him.

Not to mention that the infrastructure was already there-did you not notice the, you know, ships and tanks and aircraft the clones showed up with?

Bottom line-clone army-immediately available. Conscription of an army-months away at the bare minimum for any effective force.

 

The equipment, save for the Clonetrooper armor, were already in existence. The Republic just lacked the proper manpower to fight in the feild. And no matter what, it takes time to train people. The CIS can quickly put together a batch of Battle Droids to overwhelm an undertrained army. Not to mention that Grievous had actual training and thus it would be a wholesale slaughter. With a trained army ready to go, the Republic and the Jedi could make a more concentrated effort at stopping the war than they would with a bunch of hicks trying to be effective.

But none had the same training as the Clonetroopers. The Clone Army was vastly superior because they knew each other. They developed a rhythm. They knew how to fight in all types of enviroments and could practically think alike. Also, Jango was the best canidate for fighting. That's why every clone was made after him. The perfect soldier for the perfect army.

We know that Dooku is Tyranus when he returns to Coruscant to meet with Palpatine.

Sidious: "Welcome home, Lord Tyranus."

Yes, they knew he had a Sith name. But no, they didn't find out. Only two people in the films knew; Darth Sidious and Jango Fett. One's not talking and the other's definately not talking after losing his head. In the books, a few others did know, but Obi-wan only finds out in the novelization for ROTS. But he doesn't make the connection to Jango's mysterious recruiter named Tyranus. In the book, Grievous calls Dooku Tyranus when he boosts about being trained in the Jedi Arts. Obi-wan asks for clarification that Dooku was Tyranus. That's it.

Jango Fett is a mercenary. He is bought and sold to the highest bidder and has no loyalities. Jango was hired to be a clone template by a man named Tyranus, at the behest of Sifo-Dyas. Jango was hired by Nute Gunray, through Count Dooku, to kill Senator Amidala. Jango outsources to Zam Wessel. Jango went to Geonosis because Obi-wan was chasing him there. He was there to stand at Nute's side. Not Dooku's.

See, look at it like this. I'm an independent person. A business man. A freelancer. I can choose to work for whoever pays me for my services. I go to one company and do my job. Five years later, I go to work for the rival company and offer the same services to them. I can do this because I'm paid to do it and am qualified for it. Now, that doesn't mean that there is some type of sabatoge or a case of divided loyality. I'm simple a man who gets paid and has no loyality to either side. That's who Jango is in the Jedi point of view. A guy who

 

Sorry, I don't buy it. That the Jedi would just brush off the connection of Jango between the Clones and the Seperatists and the Sith. Just a "freelancer". It's a big galaxy, isn't it -- nothing untoward about the same mercenary in the middle of the galaxies biggest revelations. Just a co-incidence. Bah! That's ridiculous.

And you say all the ships and landers and troop loaders and guns and bombs were all already built, just waiting to be used? That doesn't make a bit of sense -- wasn't one of the central plots of AOTC the creation of the military act? Did Palpatine pre-emptively build a miliary sans soldiers before the act was passed?

Not even mentioned in my doubts about this are the morality of the Jedi using the Clones. This perhaps is their greatest moral mistake in the Prequels.

 

Jango Fett is reputed as being the best bounty hunter in the galaxy. He's a Mandalorian warrior, one of their finest. You want the best damned soldier, you go with him. You want the best bounty hunter, you go with him. You want the best man who can pull off a big time political assassination, you go with him. It may be a big galaxy, but his reputation is known far and wide to those who know him well.

No, the Republic had all these things because they were to be used in defense of the Core Worlds, such as Coruscant and Alderaan. There is no active army, but there is a small defense fleet for minor incursions. But the Republic hasn't had to really use this equipment in a long time. They haven't had footsoldiers.

Clones as opposed to non-clones. There isn't much of a difference in asking a living being, be it a clone or otherwise. With the Clonetroopers, there is no family other than each other. Much easier than telling someone's family that they need to fight and possibly die. The Jedi were not entirely comfortable with using the Clonetroopers, but their consciences weren't as burdened if they had relied entirely on non-clone personel.

 

And where is this said IN the films?

Simply wondering outloud would take perhaps five minutes so the "too busy" argument does not wash.
Second given the large number of strange events surrounding the clone army finding out more about it would be prudent and this could be done by two or three jedi and would not take that much time.
If we go by the films who actually ordered the clones is a mystery in AotC as the jedi think that it was not Sifo-Dyas but this is simply dropped in RotS.

Why should I assume that the jedi did anything about the Sith between TPM and AotC when absolutely NOTHING is said about any such investigations? If the jedi did an investigation and did not find anything then it should still merit a mention. Otherwise we are left with the impression that the jedi sat around and twiddled their thumbs for ten years. The Sith/TF connection is never spoken of, what the Sith actually tried to do in TPM is also never mentioned nor what plans the jedi have to deal with the Sith.

No reason?

1) The manner in which this army was ordered. The order to create the clone army was made WITHOUT the approval or even knowledge of either the jediorder or the senate. If nothing else that could mean that whoever did this commited a crime. Also how was this paid for, the cost would have been enormous.

2) Who did order this army? The jedi have a name, a dead jedi master Sifo-Dyas. But IN the films the jedi think that he was killed BEFORE this army was created and thus could not have been responsible. That means that whoever did order this used Sifo-Dyas name and in all likelyhood was involved in his death.

3) The jedi archives have been tampered with. Someone have removed the kamino file from the jedi archives, something that only a jedi could do. The removal of Kamino MUST be realted to the clone army so who did this?
There are only two possible candidates based on the films, Sifo-Dyas or Dooku.
If Sifo-Dyas did order the clone army it would make sense for him to delete the file in order for the jedi not to find the army since he did not tell them about the army. The second choice would be Dooku and based on the fact that the jedi think that Sifo-Dyas did not order the army on account of being dead then Dooku would be the prime suspect.

4) The template for the clone army is also working for Dooku, who is building an army for himself and his army would have to fight the clone army. Then you have the fact that Dooku is in leage with the TF and is later revealed to be a Sith. So the Sith has been involved in the creation of BOTH armies.
No before you say it, Jango is for hire so it is POSSIBLE that these two jobs were unrelated but it is equally possible that there is a connection. So it is both illogical and very stupid for the jedi to imideatly dissmiss and and all possibilities of a connection between Jango and Dooku and simply write it off as mere chance.
If they wondered about it and tried to find out but found nothing that I can buy, not this total inaction and total lack of thought.

All this makes the clone army very suspect and would raise all manner of red flags to anyone with a working brain.
But apparently the jedi think nothing

 

Yoda never got to kamino..remember the archives were erased, he didn't stop for directions..he got lost in the asteroid belt... and ended up being rescued by the jedi.

 

It's apparent based on the Jedi not knowing jack. Dooku would make sure that the Jedi didn't know because he is protecting his Master.

Because it is irrelevant by then. What is relevant is ending the war. And every Jedi was needed to fight in the Clone Wars or train the Younglings.

Dooku, if he is telling the truth, said that the Jedi Council refused to believe a word that he and Nute said about Lord Sidious. So apparently, the Jedi didn't believe Nute's claims. So it seems that they did something and it was inconclusive. This is under the assumption that it was before he became a Sith and that he's telling the truth about that much. You can also come away with the impression that they did search and found nothing.

The plan is to kill the Sith as soon as he shows himself.

The Jedi are told that it was one of their own and that there was a man named Tyranus, who apparently would've been the one to fund the army. Since he also recruited Jango Fett.

They don't know for sure when he died and after they investigated, they concluded that he did place the order. Before that they were assuming that he died before hand. But they were wrong.

They know that Dooku did it, but the reasons for this are the wrong ones. Namely that he was trying to prevent the Jedi from finding the Clone Army.

 

It makes little to no sense.


I stand affirmed in my opinion that either using the Clones is a monumentally colossal stupidity based on what we see in the movies, OR, it's bad writing.



There is no on-screen reason to believe the Jedi should place an ounce of trust in the Clones, and plenty of reasons not to trust them.

Prime among them -- and this is funny -- is that all of us, of course, know the Clones are not to be trusted. We know their they're Stormtroopers! So it's a stretch -- bordering on a tight rope -- to say the Jedi had no reason to be suspicious of the Clones, or morally wrong to use them. LOL

 

No it is not apparent because there is never any talk of the jedi doing anything about the Sith between TPM and AotC. Nothing about questioning Nute or doing any digging what so ever.
So it is equally possible that the reason the jedi knows nothing is that they did nothing.
Also when TPM ended Dooku is still a jedi and has not yet joined Palpatine so if the jedi questioned Nute a few days after the battle of Naboo, Dooku would have no reason to interfere.

Sorry, again NOTHING is said IN the films.

Hardly irrelevent if this conflict is created by the same person and there is plenty of reason for the jedi suspect that somthing is up. Plus the fact that Palpatine now has far more power than before so the jedi could suspect a military coup of some sorts. For the jedi to use the clone army it would be like beating rats to death with a rattlesnake. It works but is also rather dangerous.
Plus the jedi never even voicing any concerns with the clone army, how it was created, by whom or the Jango-Dooku connection DOES make them very stupid.

When did Dooku say that he and Nute told the jedi council about Sidious?
As far as I recall he says that Nute came to him for help and told him everything about what happened.
But I do not remember him saying that he spoke of this to the council, all he says is that the dark side has clouded the jedi's vision and that is why they do not see the Sith in the senate. All that does is suggest that the jedi do not use such mundande things like investigations, questions or evidence. They simply realy on the force to tell them everything and when it does not, they are clueless.

Great plan, excellent plan and if this Sith never did reveal himself openly and just kept working in the shadows, what then? Apparently nothing.

First there is considerable doubt that it even was one of their own. Second Dooku was a jedi and turned traitor so why would they assume that Sifo-Dyas was still one their side, despite him working behind their backs.
Third, if this Tyrannus has enough money to pay for such a huge army by himself he would be extremely rich. As such it would not be hard to find him as he would propbably be one of the ten richest persons in the galaxy and rich people tend to be known.

Again this is not in the films so it does not count. If you ONLY watch the films, you come away with the impression that the jedi belive that Sifo-Dyas was NOT the one to order the clones and NOTHING is said about any investigations or their results. So we the audience are left to wonder why the jedi still use the army and voice no concerns what so ever about the many mysteries surronding it.

 

I got a question. if Kamino is all water where do the clones get their food and their equipment? off world or something?

 

They eat a lot of fish.

 

The Jedi trusted the Clone Army because their Jedi senses and feelings told them that there was nothing wrong. Regardless of the nature of their origins, they felt nothing that would give them reason to not trust them. That is the beauty of Order 66. It wasn't personal. It was just the Clonetroopers obeying orders.

Going by the films, the Jedi didn't listen to Nute.

But their Jedi senses and the Force gave them no reason to suspect anything. The Jedi trusted that.

Dooku: "The Viceroy of the Trade Federation was once in league with this Darth Sidious. But he was betrayed ten years ago by the Dark Lord. He came to me for help. He told
me everything. The Jedi Council would not believe him. I tried many times to warn them but they wouldn't listen to me. Once they sensed the Dark Lord's presence, it would then be too late. You must join me, Obi-Wan, and together we will destroy the Sith."

So assuming that Dooku's being honest here, then it shows that the Jedi did make an effort but did not believe Nute because their instincts didn't give them reason to.

The Jedi were still viewing the Sith as they were once upon a time. They believed that this missing Sith Lord would grow impatient and thus make his presence known. They never considered that the Sith were now using bits of the Jedi teachings to their advantage.

Not much once they investigated it.

 

Nordom:

Keep in mind that:

It was impossible to known to what extent Sifo Dyas was involved as he was dead. I think Yoda mentions in LOE how much he wished Sifo was alive to explain what had happened.

The Jedi thought that Sifo had ordered the clones. It was then thought that Dooku discovered this and murdered Sifo. They believed that Dooku then erased the archives file to hide the existance of the clone army. They thought Dooku was trying to sabotage the creation of the army so the Separatists could take over the republic.

The Jedi did not know that Tyrannus was Dooku, so they continued to believe the payments were made by someone else who had interests in building a clone army for the Republic (someone like Sifo who was a rogue but a goodie!). They thought that, although Dooku knew of the army, he had no choice but to build an army for the Separatists himself before the Jedi discovered the clones (if they ever did). To them, it was lucky that Kenobi discovered the army when he did else it seemed as if the Separatists would have invaded and taken over. of course Sidious was behind it all. He (and Dooku) led the Jedi to Kamino and then into the trap on Geonosis to start the war.

The Jedi also thought Jango was playing both sides. I.e. that he was working for Tyrannus and getting paid but also working for Dooku. That is the nature of a bounty hunter after all

All this may sound a little convenient but it was more realistic at the time than the idea that Dooku and co. were telling the truth and that the Sith were in control of the Republic already. That was perhaps the one outstanding error of the Jedi - to dismiss what Dooku had said. But then, they do act on it and keep an eye on the Senate. And Sith are renowed liars.

Thats the clones mystery summed up. It does take time to understand it. Hell, I used to think Mace ordered the Clones! lol.

I recommend reading Labyrinth of Evil if you havent already. Thats where I worked out a lot of stuff from. But all you really need to realise in the films is that Sidious was behind it all. If you have a burning desire to know more, check out LOE.

 

First off I am talking about what the jedi do or say IN the films so all this EU material is irrelevant. If you insist on using it then you are basically saying that the jedi's actions only makes sense IF you read some books.
So the moves do not stand on their own, you have to read books as well.

What I am saying that based ON the films, the jedi appear as cluless morons as they use the clone army without question and make no attempts what so ever to find out more about it. There is no talk about doing any digging or trying to find out more about who ordered the army or Jangos connection to Dooku. It would have been enough with some mentions of worry about Jangos connection to Dooku and that they would look into it. Then in RotS they could talk about that they did not learn very much. That would show that the jedi are able to think. But as I have said many times now, the movies have NOTHING of this and so the jedi appear clueless and dumb.

IN the films the jedi have doubts about Sifo-Dyas involment, they belive he was already dead, and NOTHING later in AotC or in RotS shows that the jedi changed their minds. Then IN the films, the jedi never investigate who erased Kamino from their files and nothing is said that it was Dooku or anyhting like that. And they NEVER bring up the fact that Jango worked for Dooku.

So for me, enough people have mentioned what happened in LOE enough so I get just fine what happened but my problem with LOE is that Sifo-Dyas is a poorly written character. He is a jedi and somehow he gets very disturbing visions of coming darkness, visions that no other jedi get. And instead of telling his fellow jedi about this, he goes to Palpatine who convinces him to violate the jedi code and republic law by secretly ordering a clone army and once he has done this, Palpatine has him killed. He also seems to be the one that tells the kamino people

 

I can't recall either.

I don't think they knew for sure if the Sith had been alive for all that time. Going by the films, they assumed that they've only come back within the last fifty years. They had no clue that that Sith had adapted, because it never occured to them. Yoda only realizes this as he is fighting Sidious. The Sith had adapted and the Jedi had not.

If he has not turned to the dark side and killed in anger & hate, then yes, he's still a good Jedi. Just one who broke some rules apparently for a noble purpose

Dooku joined the dark side. As far as they know, Sifo-Dyas had not.

Unless he didn't consider the Clone Army much of a threat to his plans.

Even the smartest of people can overlook the obvious or draw a wrong conclusion.

 

I'd just like to say that I very much doubt that Sifo Dyas ordered the Clones.

For me, it went like this:

Count Dooku was becoming disollusioned with the Jedi and the Senate. He also heared that a Dark Lord had surfaced. He at this point was becoming more of a renegade and considered leaving the Jedi Order. His close confidant, Sifo Dyas learns of Dooku's plans to leave and start a Separatist movement. Being a good Jedi, Sifo knew that should this come into fruitition then the Republic would be at the mercy of this movement. So Sifo makes contact with the Kaminoans about the creation of a Clone army. Its just a initial contact though. No orders were made.

Sidious then seeks Dooku out and manages to persuade him to join his cause. They share similar views on politics and power. Dooku disocvers what Sifo was up to and informs Sidious. Sidious tells Dooku to destroy Sifo Dyas and erase Kamino from the archives. One of them then assumes Sifo Dyas' identity and orders the clones. Dooku then leaves the Jedi order and becomes a Sith.

Thats how I see it. Sifo Dyas was a good Jedi. Probably like Qui Gon in being a slight rebel. But he sincerely believed an army would be needed. And he was right -it just didnt turn out well!

 

Well I checked and he does NOT say the bolded words, so I have no idea where you got those from.
So my point still stands, the movies gives no evidence that the jedi did anything to find out more about the Sith between TPM and AotC, like talking to Nute, searching Mauls ship or anything at all.

How would that work? There are only two possibilities, either a jedi turned to the darkside and became a Sith or someone that was strong with the force but had no training and managed to turn to the darkside.
In the first case then the jedi would be aware of it as they would know the person.
In the other case how would this person know how to build a lightsaber or know anything about the Sith ways?
Also this person would have no training and would then be a rather limited threat to a well trained jedi.

Since Sifo-Dyas is dead the jedi would have no way of knowing if he had turned to the dark side or not. All they know is that he went behind the senates back and behind the jedi councils back as well to create a clone army.
Also the purpose for the army is not clear, it is for the republic but the clones are made to follow any orders so that means that the senate or the chancellor could order the army to do anything. Like killing all that oppose the current chancellor or to make him the absolute ruler or the galaxy.
The army can be told to do anything and will not question any orders, so whoever controlls it has a great deal of power.

Smart or even people of average inteligence would not simply overlook all these strange things and they would have done more than what the jedi did.

And the movies show what happened to the jedi, they did not question the army, they never considered anything, they did not think and they paid the price for their stupidity. They got killed.
Like I've said, where there is smoke, there is fire and if you ignore it you get burned. The jedi ignored the smoke and the fire alarms and they got burned to death.

To me it weakens the story and the characters, Palpatine did not win by being clever, he won because his opponents were stupid.

Regards
Nordom