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Yoda's trip to Kamino

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Knightstorme, Mar 9, 2007.

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  1. Master_Shaitan

    Master_Shaitan Jedi Master star 5

    Dec 31, 2004
    That dialogue is in the shooting script but it didnt make the final cut.
    What could the Jedi have done to find out about the Sith? The dark side is hard to see. The Sith were yet to reveal themselves. There isnt enough screen time to show the Jedi going about usual investigative stuff. We should just assume that they do. Just because we cant see something, doesnt mean it does not exist!

    IMO, the Jedi must think the Sith had been around in hidding for a millenia. They believe it is the Sith of old whom have returned. The Sith is someone who lives by the doctrines of the Sith Order. Knowledge is passed down. Thats what the Jedi think has happened IMO.

    [quoteNordom]Since Sifo-Dyas is dead the jedi would have no way of knowing if he had turned to the dark side or not. All they know is that he went behind the senates back and behind the jedi councils back as well to create a clone army.[/quote]

    We dont know that. Like i said, there is proof of initial contact - not that he ordered the clones. I personally think Sidious/Dooku did that in his name. I think Sifo was checking things out and would have made that aware to the Jedi. Probably a big reason why Dooku killed him.

    Indeed. But they trusted Palpatine and the Senate. That was a mistake.

  2. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    And as I said, you're to infer that they did and found nothing.

    It was more of the latter than the former. The individual, they assumed, had gone to places where the Sith were known to have resided at. Places such as Ziost and Korriban, dominions of the Sith Order. This individual went and found the aincent teachings of the Sith and studied them. Stuff such as building a Lightsaber isn't that difficult, since we know that Luke built one without Yoda or Ben telling him. If we're leaving out "Shadows Of The Empire", Luke managed to construct a Lightsaber without a guidebook from Obi-wan that was left in his hovel. We also see in TESB, that Luke's managed to figure out how to levitate an object before going to Dagobah. ANH did not show us this, so we are to assume that Obi-wan told him at some point off screen.

    Yet they were told it was for the Republic. It is conjecture that he had not turned on their part. And one who turns does know that they have. Dooku knew that he turned as he did it willingly. And Anakin had done so quite clearly when he's crying about what he has done.

    Yes, that is true. But the Jedi at the time they learn of the Clone Army do not suspect the Chancellor would ever turn on them. They still see him as a good man who was doing the best that he could under the circumstances.
  3. Nordom

    Nordom Jedi Padawan star 4

    Jun 1, 2004
    What could the jedi have done? Talk to Nute, given how much of a coward he is and he had lost big time after TPM, he would have told the jedi everything. They would know about Sidious, how and when Nute and Sidious made their deal, how Nute is able to contact Sidious, that Sidious is able to controll the senate, they would know more about Maul, Nute could lead them to Mauls ship and so on.
    They might not be able to figure out that Palpatine is Sidoius but they could have gotten pictures of Sidious and he does look a bit like Palpatine.
    In all they would have gotten a fair bit of information and enough reason to watch the senate more closely and learned more about what the Sith were up to.

    Since AotC shows the jedi being totally clueless about what the Sith are doing or what the did with the TF and the film does not provide any reasons why the jedi COULD NOT have done what I mentioned above, what I infer is that the jedi did nothing.
    If nothing is mentioned or infered about any investigations nor is anything said about obstacles so said investigations and no results of any investigations are ever talked about, the logical conclusion is that NO investigations were made.

    And the bit about because we do not see something does not mean it never happened, that is an apeal to ignorance fallacy.
    If you want to argue that the jedi did investigate things then proved MOVIE proof of this, simply saying that it could have happened but we never see it is not enough.

    But the jedi know that the senate is corrupt and in RotS they have great doubts about Palpatine but they never consider that with the power Palpatine have he could brand them as traitors and order the clone army to kill them at any time he wants. So even without order 66, the jedi would know that the clone army could be used against them at any time if Palpatine ordered it.

    You do not need to see an actual investiagtion, all you need is some of the jedi talking at the end of AotC where the doubts about Sifo-Dyas ordering the army, the Jango-Dooku connection and other things are brought up. They talk about looking into it further. Then in RotS they could refer back to this and say that their investigations did not find solid evidence of Sith involvment with the clone army. Total time for this is 5-10 minutes at most.

    Also I must judge the characters inteligence based on what they do or in this case do not do IN the films. I do not assume that they did any number of things that there is no evidence that they did just in order to change my view on them.
    They jedi ARE faced with many strange mysteries and yet they never voice any concerns or talk about looking further into this. If some character in a movie or book have lots of warning signs and yet ignores them and in the end he gets killed from ignoring them then I would view this person as stupid. He was given clear waring and he chose to ignore it and he paid the prize. Why should I suddenly assume a lot of things that are never talked about happened just to make him seem more bright?

  4. Master_Shaitan

    Master_Shaitan Jedi Master star 5

    Dec 31, 2004
    I think you underestimate Sidious.
    Firstly, he had promised to keep the TF out of trouble. And he did so. This is shown in the films in AOTC when that Bibble guy mentions how after many trials Nute is still the viceroy of the trade federation.
    Nute Gunray is a greedy sod. He believes in what Sidious promised him.
    Furthermore, he was being dealt with by the legal system. If he wasnt going to be arrested then what could the jedi do?
    But who is to say the jedi didnt speak to him?

    Bot really. The opposite could be said.
    You have to ask yourself - why would the Jedi not do all they could?
    They clearly do - as the EU is all about. Its just we should assume the obvious that they have investigated.
    But as I said - its made apparant in the films that the senate is dealing with Nute and he gets off.

    Nor is saying they didnt because we didnt see it. "If an item doesnt appear on our records, then it doesnt exist!" - its that kind of logic that can be the really ignorance.
    The films make it clear that Nute gunray is handed over to the authorities. And Sidiou helps him get off. He doesnt have to speak to the Jedi, nor would he have any reason to. Then when the "Sith" hits the fan in AOTC, he goes into hiding and the Jedi cant get to him or the other Separatist leaders.

    Well, they knew some part of the senate was corrupt -not all.
    And yeah, Palpatine could have turned at any time. But the jedi had to trust the diplomatic process.

    Maybe. And i do see your point, especially as I liked this whole story line. However, is it really neccessary? From a filmmaking sense, giving too much away may have damaged the tension. Also, we are lo
  5. Strilo

    Strilo Manager Emeritus star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Aug 6, 2001
    Perhaps agreeing to disagree on this matter and moving on is in order?
  6. Master_Shaitan

    Master_Shaitan Jedi Master star 5

    Dec 31, 2004
    Or how about myself, Sinister and Nordom continue this interesting discussion and you stop spamming?[face_thinking]
  7. EwokThatCried

    EwokThatCried Jedi Padawan star 4

    May 22, 2003
    [blockquote]LAMA SU: You'll find they are totally obedient, taking any
    order without question. We modified their genetic structure
    to make them less independent than the original host.

    [/blockquote]This line from AOTC explains that the clones are engineered to obey commands. The moment the clones are put under the Jedi's command, they are obedient. So long as the Jedi trust the Kaminoans, they should have no worries about the clones obeying commands. Obi-Wan doesn't feel the Kaminoans would have any motive to betray the Republic.

    The fact is, the clones never really "turn on the Jedi" rather the clones are told by Palpatine that the Jedi turned on the Republic. The clones remain loyal to the end and obey all commands.

  8. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    How about not making those kinds of remarks.
  9. Master_Shaitan

    Master_Shaitan Jedi Master star 5

    Dec 31, 2004
    When interesting debates stopped being oppressed or stifled then I will refrain from such comments. This is a Star Wars message board. We're here to debate - not neccessarily agree all the time. "Agree to disagree" and "lets close this up for a while comments" go against all that. It renders the whole thing pointless. If things go wildly off topic and people get nasty, sure - lock her up. But when people are discussing the films, I regard such comments as spamming and pedantic, self interested remarks.
  10. Nordom

    Nordom Jedi Padawan star 4

    Jun 1, 2004

    A bit of both really.

    First I think it is a slight waste to introduce and start to develop a plot in one film and then simply dropped in the next film.
    Second, I have a pet peeve about stories where people of otherwise normal inteligence are made quite dumb in order for the plot to move forward. People have to overlook obvious choices of actions or igoring obvious clues and so on.

    In this case, you have a clone army that is ordered by some jedi that we have never seen or heard off, then we learn that he is dead and that he is thought to have been dead even before the army was ordered. So there is some doubt as to who actually ordered the army. By films end we learn that Dooku and Palpatine were ultimately behind the whole thing but there are still unanswered questions. Did Sifo-Dyas actually order the clones, if so why, did Palpatine know before hand and how did he find out? If Sifo-Dyas did not order the clones then what was his connection to Dooku and Palpatine, why him? Was he just some jedi that was handy or was there more to it?

    Then you have what the jedi know and what they do with it. They do not know that Dooku is Tyrannus but there ARE quite a number of strange and curious circumstances around this army. The timeing is rather convinient, the doubts about who actually ordered it, the tampering with jedi files and last but not least, that the template of this army is working for the people that the army would be used against.
    All this would raise very serious concerns with most people and they would certainly comment about these things and also be very suspicious about what is going on and would look further into it.
    However with the jedi, they do not do any of these things, they use the army, no questions asked and never to seem to find any of the circumstances surrounding the army the least bit strange.

    This makes them rather dense in my mind.

    And this is what makes the jedi dumb, given all the strange things around this army, this fact should not be dissmissed out of hand. The fact that that one person is working both sides should be casue for concern and would lead to serious investigations. Once these are done the perhaps you can conclude that it was just mere chance but not before. To ignore this or simply dissmiss it is quite stupid.

    But in RotS the jedi disstrust Palpatine and yet they never worry about the total controll he has over the army.
    He could kill them all with a word.
    Also when Mace goes after Palpatine he also never seem to consider that Palpatine could give one command and all the clones would turn on the jedi. For all he knows he could face a wall of soldiers when he gets to Palpatine.
    The least he could do is to warn the other jedi, that they are in great danger from the clones.

    But concider the time here, Dooku could only have removed the file before he left the order. And if Dooku killed Sifo-Dyas then all this took place almost ten years ago. That means that Dooku found Palpatine, while still a jedi, turned, killed Sifo-Dyas, deleted the file and THEN left the order. So for a brief time he WAS a Sith while still being a part of the jediorder.

  11. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    They don't believe that he will go that far. They just see him as a power hungry opportunist. Nothing more than that. Someone who wants to be absolute ruler, not a Dark Lord of the Sith.

    That's the beauty of Order 66. The Jedi would never consider that the Sith had planned for a massive betrayal like that. There is no reason to think that Palpatine would turn the Clonetroopers on the Jedi, much less have a surefire way of making it happen. When Mace goes to arrest Palpatine, he is confident that they will be able to deal with any opposition.

    Yep. That's how it worked out. This took place all between the end of the Naboo battle and just about the time the Clone Army was ordered, but work had not begun yet.

    Because they were not given leave to send more than one Jedi team. There is no Chancellor and the Senate is too wrapped up in voting for a new one. Ergo, the current Jedi team assigned to the Naboo crisis was allowed to go back, because Queen Amidala was in need of their protection. They also have no proof that this is a Sith Lord that they're dealing with. So two Jedi will suffice.
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