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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Amph "You are of Bajor" A 'Trek' to 'Deep Space Nine'

Discussion in 'Community' started by Darth_Duck, Jan 4, 2006.

  1. Darth_Omega

    Darth_Omega Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Agreed (can't believe I'm agreeing with Koohii) although I'm not sure if 'The Search' can have a decent conclusion, both the Dominion and Odo 'I want to go home' subplot are far from over.
     
  2. TIEPilot051999

    TIEPilot051999 Jedi Master star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 27, 2002
    "The Search: Part II" has what might very well be the funniest bit of dialogue ever encountered in Trek.

    Garak: I'm glad to see the plan is going as scheduled.
    Jem'Hadar Soldier: What plan is that?
    Garak: You mean no one told you? You see, I pretend to be their friend... and then I shoot you.

    Every time I watch this ep, I always laugh at that.
     
  3. Jedimarine

    Jedimarine Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 13, 2001
    Well that's part of the serialized nature of the show going forward.

    But that doesn't mean the smaller, more personal stories can't have solid conclusions.

    Honestly, it just comes down to making that cliffhanger as impressive as possible to hook people, but never being able to live up to that hype and still complete the story in the next hour.

    "Chain of Command" in TNG was great...but I think that's because they used a different style...while the first part lead up to a dramatic conclusion, it didn't present an "obstacle" so much as presented "peril". The mission failed, Picard captured, the Enterprise controlled by a $*#@. The second half with the interrogation...there wasn't really any expectation of that from the first part...it could've been 2 distinct episodes in progression rather then a 2-parter. An interesting thing about that 2-parter was how little the end of the cliffhanger influenced actions in part 2, which is unusual...no rescue missions were launched, no escape attempts...it really was "different".

    So perhaps the key to a good 2-parter is to pretend it's not really a 2-parter.
     
  4. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    I'm always curious if Trek's issue with weaker early seasons isn't so much a major "problem" as it is simply a result of the franchise's premise.

    On one hand, you have the more classic approach to standalones that try to be higher concept, reflecting the more 60's sci-fi anthology-like nature of TOS (and about 80% of TNG) where they use the trappings of the Trek universe to be the door into different genre stories and styles, almost irregardless of how they fit in with any other Trek episodes.

    On the other, you have the efforts to make it cohesive universe, in spite of those disparate elements, where things aren't in a bubble. ANd that's often difficult to fit into the same kind of show as the "classic style" episodes.

    But here they also have to differentiate each series from one another, which often takes considerably more time than a completely original series. It took TNG a couple seasons to stop trying to be TOS Redone and find it's voice. Then DS9 took a season or two to stop copying TNG's voice and take the serialistic, story-arc approach.

    Then Voyager tried to harken back to TOS and TNG (a fatal core flaw to the series conception, IMO) before it found what it wanted to do. Finally Enterprise tried again to be what Voyager failed to be and again tried to harken back to TOS and failed (because you can't do TOS again, as it's not a product of our time), but with the added flaw of taking a 24th century story arc (Temporal Cold War) and making it take place in the pre-TOS era.

    After 3 seasons they finally wisened up and realized that if the show was supposed to be a prequel to TOS, then they should probably start actually being a prequel to TOS, and suddenly the quality of the series in that last season increased exponentially (ignoring the finale).

    So it seems not so much a major issue with the production quality or crew, but more the shadow of the franchise and it's diversity often obscures concepts in the endeavor of finding something distinct and a series is launched not really knowing what it's supposed to be- they launch it as one thing, and eventually it becomes another.


    And, even though we obviously have different tastes when it comes to the series, out of curiosity, what's the 1 episode from Season 3 that you liked?




    I somewhat disagree. I think the key word is "stride". The 3rd or 4th season is usually the best of a lot of shows (obviously there are exceptions, like BSG, which is the complete opposite somehow). The 2nd season is usually the key test for a series, IMO- if they can't completely sell you by mid-season 2, then generally they've failed.

    For example, B5 had a pretty weak Season 1 (following an average-at-best pilot film)- it has some great episodes in it, but almost half are either terrible (Infection, Grail, TKO) or weak standalones that are of interest upon subsequent viewings due to subtext (Born to the Purple, Survivors, Legacies, War Prayer, etc).

    But, it took the strong and, come Season 2, things hit quality pretty quickly, with The Coming of Shadows being the real kicker.

    And I think most shows are usually like that- Season 1 has the trial and error, the good and the bad, and Season 2 shows the fruits of the improvements. Sometimes, when you have a pilot,
     
  5. Koohii

    Koohii Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 30, 2003
    Again, aside from Neelix, and the over-emphasis on having a female captain, I thought Voyager started out well, but by the end of season 2, I was bored.

    The only good episode of DS9 season 3 was the hijacking of the Defiant by Riker.

    Nitpicky time: irregardless? Without without regard? Without lack of regard? Double repetitive redundancy much? Sorry--English degree holder.
     
  6. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    I defer to your grammatical superiority. [face_peace]
     
  7. Jedimarine

    Jedimarine Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 13, 2001
    I don't know...of all the absurd quirks of this mutt of a language we share...this one is minimal...and at least has some history behind it.

    So perhaps not academic, but certainly cultural.

    Just don't use it in your official Trek Franchise research paper, 2nd.
     
  8. Koohii

    Koohii Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 30, 2003
    I've also heard educated people use 'snuck', but that doesn't change the fact that it's wrong.

    But let's not start the great 'usage vs rules' debate.
     
  9. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    [image=http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060120000510/memoryalpha/en/images/6/6b/Caves_of_Makala.jpg]
    DS9 304: Equilibrium
    -Premise: Jadzia Dax is plagued by disturbing hallucinations that allude to the dark past of the Dax symbiont.

    -T2Q Comments: The mask hallucination visuals are effective here- makes me wonder how they did some of that- not a question that Trek raises in me often as I tend to know their tricks by now.

    So they're taking the Defiant to transport Dax to Trill instead of a Runabout? Seems like a bit of overkill.

    First glimpse of Trill. Though the middle investigation doesn't engage me much, the conversation with the brother is handled well, and the eventual reveal of the hidden secret is pretty neat.

    Don't care for the visual metaphor of her joining the memories- I almost giggled a bit when he emerged from the water.

    Not a bad episode, though not one I'd want to watch more tha once- but neither am I inclined to outright skip it if I were doing a DVD marathon. Average (though Joran apparently shows up again later in the series, so this one might get elevated much later on).

    Trivia: The mask tricks are based on the magic show performed by the actor who plays Joran, and, in fact, the show was the inspiration for developing this episode (so that's why I couldn't figure it out- it's literally NOT one of their tricks!).



    [image=http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050923170150/memoryalpha/en/images/c/c4/Kira_as_Iliana.jpg] [image=http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050923165909/memoryalpha/en/images/f/f9/Kira_views_her_dead_body.jpg] [image=http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050923165949/memoryalpha/en/images/e/e9/Ghemor_and_Kira_caught.jpg]
    DS9 305: Second Skin
    -Premise: Kira is kidnapped by the Cardassians, who try to convince her that she is really one of them.

    -T2Q Comments: Little obvious with the alien trailing Kira here. Garek! huzzah! Interesting premise to the Kira plotline.

    "A pity- I rather liked him."

    Minor advanecement of the Garek plotline- Good Episode, but Not Necessarily Essential (though Ghemor shows up later so perhaps this one will be upgraded)

    Trivia: The story was originally about Miles, revealing he'd really been a Cardassian for 20 years, but the writer ran into problems trying to explain his fully-human child, so it was changed to Kira. Originally, they were going to leave whether or not Kira was a Cardassian ambiguous.

    Nana Vistor is claustrophobic and disliked wearing the Cardassian makeup- on one long day she asked to end early to get out of the maleup, but the director wanted to get a few more shots, to which Visitor responded by physically removing the makeup on the set.

    The running theme of a "second skin" for many elements exists for the whole episode- Kira/Iliana, Ghemor's pro/anti Cardassian governent stances, Defiant/freighter, Garek's tailor/spy status, Sisko/Kobheerian captain and Odo/bag.



    [image=http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050318143737/memoryalpha/en/images/7/7c/JemHadarInfant.jpg] [image=http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050318144111/memoryalpha/en/images/8/8b/JemHadarChild.jpg] [image=http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050318144816/memoryalpha/en/images/e/e1/JemHadarAdult.jpg]
    [image=http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050920192359/memoryalpha/en/images/9/9d/Quark_is_a_daddy.jpg] [image=http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060413094334/memoryalpha/en/images/3/3a/Odo_holding_his_bucket.jpg] [image=http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060513142533/memoryalpha/en/images/9/93/Mardah_at_dabo_table.jpg]
    DS9 306: The Abandoned
    -Premise: Quark finds an abandoned Jem'Hadar child, and Odo is the only person who can control him.

    -T2Q Comments: Jake and the Daubo Girl, the dinner invite following up on a reference in Season 2's Playing God.

    Aww, it's a baby Jaffa... I am Teal'c, Son of Sisko ;)

    Odo's enthusiasm for his shapeshifting really sells the scene.

    Nice reveal of the baby's nature- I like the concept a lot, though it's also interesting to note my
     
  10. Zebra3

    Zebra3 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 28, 2004
    I have to admit, Garak hitting on Kira in Second Skin always makes me laugh :p
     
  11. Jedimarine

    Jedimarine Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 13, 2001
    Equilibrium: my opinion of Dax episodes is previously documented...moving on.


    Second Skin: WIN...I particularly like the process Kira goes through in the episode...from the absolute horror...could she imagine a worse nightmare?...to the end when she actually sympathizes, perhaps LIKES a Cardassian...it's a huge step for her...it's even more profound then if it were Miles.

    And I must say...way to go Nana for that performance if she was battling claustrophobia the whole time...though I don't have it to that degree...I can imagine the "length" of time having to endure such a situation to be psychologically maddening.


    The Abandoned:
    More win...and perhaps more so for the secondary story with Jake and the lovely lady...the Jem'Hadar story comes together in the end, but it's pretty tedious...and clearly indicative of how DS9 is clearly different from TNG with the anti-"I, Borg" direction. Yes folks, the Utopians couldn't sway someone totally to their Point of View...shocking revelation!
     
  12. TIEPilot051999

    TIEPilot051999 Jedi Master star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 27, 2002
    Being a Transformers fan, I watched "The Abandoned" a while back knowing that the teenage Jem'Hadar in "The Abandoned" was played by Bumper Robinson, who voiced Bumblebee and Blitzwing in Transformers: Animated. It's always amazing watching people do different roles.
     
  13. Koohii

    Koohii Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 30, 2003
    Lots of people can host simbiants... zzzzz. Who cares? Is this ever revisited? Are there any consequences?


    See, If they'd actually taken one of these "you're actually a ____ agent", and Done it, that would probablly have impressed me. You know, actually do something that has permanent, long-term, seriously-mess-with-the-character consequences. Blind Spock. Paralyse Warf. Let Spock or Data die and remain dead. Kira actually has been spying for the Cardassians as a long-term, deep-cover plant. That would have been an amazing venture. That might even make for a good TV show.
    But we don't get that. Not from Trek. So sad.


    OK, now this should have been a season1 episode. Or early season 2. Establish the super bad-ascii soldiers from some power on the far side of the wormhole who have a total loyalty to mysterious masters. Give the show some direction ealy on.

    Jake and the Dabboh girl... who cares? It's Jake. The character that makes Wesley look good.
     
  14. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    I don't know if the show ever follows up on it- but for this show by itself, it does have consequences for the world if that information were to come out. It's also an unexpected angle for the Trills to be that way. It would be better, obviously, if we saw that play out at some point. But can't blame the episode in Season 3 if an episode in Season 6 chose not to follow it up, ya know?


    Blame Molly ;).


    i don't see how this episode could have been done prior to The Search- the fear of the Jem'Hadar as a race by the stationgoers, their obediance to the shapeshifters, Odo's guilt at being related to the Founders and what they've done to the Jem'Hadar, etc really needs to be established for the core character stories in this episode to work.

    I like Jake more than Wesley- he's a normal kid (albeit through rosy TV glasses) usually dealing with normal situations. He's not a super genius whose main friends are robots, lead engineers and god-like aliens, destined for greatness in Starfleet.
     
  15. Koohii

    Koohii Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 30, 2003
    Molly? :confused:
     
  16. Zebra3

    Zebra3 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 28, 2004
    That's O'Brien's and Keiko's daughter. ;)
     
  17. Jedimarine

    Jedimarine Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 13, 2001
    At least say the girl is cute!

    Coming from one devil's advocate to another...you don't have to claim constant excrement all the time.
     
  18. Koohii

    Koohii Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 30, 2003
    Sorry. I call 'em as I see 'em.

    And sometimes I call them fertilizer. Or Compost. Or colonic erruptions. Once in a rare while, I say "wow". But I do try to vary my synonyms.
     
  19. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    [image=http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100120201038/memoryalpha/en/images/d/da/Dukat_insurgency_program.jpg] [image=http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100120200944/memoryalpha/en/images/f/f8/Counter-insurgency_redshirt.jpg]
    [image=http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100120201027/memoryalpha/en/images/e/e7/Benjamin_Sisko_in_burning_maintenance_conduit.jpg] [image=http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080810150107/memoryalpha/en/images/f/f2/Energy_transfer_to_shields_civil_defense.jpg]
    DS9 307: Civil Defense
    -Premise: Sisko, Jake, and O'Brien accidentally trigger an old Cardassian security system which believes that the Occupation is still going on and the station has been taken in a Bajoran workers' rebellion.

    -T2Q Comments: Cool premise- how come the station seems more effective/automated under remote Cardassian control than it does under direct Federation control? Station security is never this effective- all due respect to Odo.

    "3 years and I was finally startig to think of this place as home". Interesting comment, as it's almost the viewer's POV as well. It's hard to see DS9 as a hostile environment since it's so directly portrayed as "home base" for the function within the show.

    "What do you mean, 'We're trapped'?"
    "I mean-" ::taps the forcefield:: "We're trapped."

    This can't be understated enough- Sisko just tore a metal handle, one designed to withstand use as a means of moving a heavy ore-carrying mine cart, off the cart with his bare hands in less than 5 seconds. DO NOT arm wrestle this man- hell, I'd advise against even thumb wrestling this man.

    Garek! huzzah! Something seems off about Garek in this scene- the voice, maybe?

    The first DS9 self destruct sequence.

    Gotta love Dukat's amusement at the situation.

    "Garek! Groveling alone in a corner! That alone makes my trip worthwhile!"

    "..would you allow 2,000 people aboard this station to die simply because you don't like-...us?"

    The message for Dukat is a great little moment, with his silent reaction/body language. Garek's comments over Dukat possibly flirting with Kira are amusing given his offhand comment of Kira when she was a Cardassian.

    Does anyone facepalm/half facepalm more than Odo?

    You'd think Sisko would at least ask for Jake's shirt to help cover his arms and such from burns. I'm not sure feeding the energy from an overloading reactor into the shields powered by the same overloading reactor would dissipate the energy as suggested here...

    Really awesome episode, though there are shades of Disaster here (and this apparently also resembles the Voyager episode Worst Case Scenario), but it's somewhat more sinister, with some good twists via Dukat and other Cardassians, plus some insights into Garek and Dukat's history. Also Quark's cousin mentioned here apparently shows up later a couple times.

    Definitely Essential.

    Trivia: the episode had an extremely long and difficult gestation, with every writer on the staff having taken a pass at it before a version met with approval.



    [image=http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050903133738/memoryalpha/en/images/d/d4/Deral.jpg] [image=http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090522051335/memoryalpha/en/images/b/b1/Tiron.jpg] [image=http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100120203433/memoryalpha/en/images/5/5d/Odo_kira_holopicture_denied_meridian.jpg]
    [image=http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080320025136/memoryalpha/en/images/b/b3/Kira_surprise_meridian.jpg] [image=http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100120203412/memoryalpha/en/images/8/83/Jadzia_not_shifting_meridian.jpg]
    308: Meridian
    -Premise: Jadzia falls in love with a scientist on a planet whose inhabitants shift between this universe and a plane of pure energy, re-emerging every sixty years. Back on DS9, Quark tries to obtain a holo-image of Major Kira for an erotic holosuite program.

    -T2Q Comments: Eventual Andorian dude as this guy here. Way too human a people for seemingly trans-dimensional gamma quadrant inhabitants. Everyone's very cheery in this plotline... feels out of plac
     
  20. Koohii

    Koohii Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 30, 2003
    Civil Defense was mildly interesting, but mainly because of the holographic message message that assumed Dukat would attempt to flee the station like a coward

    Meridian was incrediblly awful. Turned it off and went to the next episode. Don't care about the personal soap-opera aspect of these characters, especially when they're presented like a soap opera.
     
  21. Darth_Omega

    Darth_Omega Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Civil Defense is a great episode, Meridian I've forgotten about for a good reason too.
     
  22. Jedimarine

    Jedimarine Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 13, 2001
    Was starting to think you quit this 2nd.

    Civil Defense is a great episode, and it is weird yet cool that the station still has surprises lock away in it.

    Meridian is woefully blowful.
     
  23. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    Not quit, but between CV, vacation, work, garage sale, cleaning and some concerts the past month's been busy. I'm in the process of getting everything up to Generations on the timeline, so I should be able to do a long run in the near future.

    So, there will be the occasional lulls, but I can promise I won't be quiting this. After doing this for 5-6 years and finally getting to the "unknown" portions of the franchise that were the whole point of starting this in the first place, I can't quit now!
     
  24. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    [image=http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100207125650/memoryalpha/en/images/9/9f/Thomas_Riker_2371.jpg]
    DS9 309: Defiant
    -Premise: When Commander William T. Riker from the Enterprise arrives on Deep Space 9, he takes a liking to Kira, who gives him a tour of the Defiant. But Riker is revealed to be not who he claims to be when he attacks Kira and steals the ship.

    -T2Q Comments: Riker crosses over- mentions spending his time in the holosuite as an alternate to the daubo tables after Sisko's comments...but, Riker, you live and work on the Enterprise, with several holodecks at your disposal- beyond the programs (of which I have no dobt he'd have any trouble acquiring or emulating if needed), there's nothing different between them other than reputation.

    Right after Dax goes "She's gone into warp- I've lost them.", Sisko has the greatest "What. The Frack." eyebrow raise expression ever.

    ...and so returns Thomas Riker- nice touch that this shady Riker wears a goatee, not a beard, ha. Kalita from Preemptive Strike returns here as well.

    I find it odd they never follow-up on Miles' encounter with Thomas- it seemed like there would be some payoff there.

    "This ship was built to fight- i think it's time she got her chance." actually, Tom, she already got that chance- stuff went boom, then she went bang.

    The whole Obsidian Order/secret fleet conflict with the Central Command is a great element here- when Gul Dukat ponders if the OO ships would fire on the CC ships, you really don't know what will happen, which is a good thing for Trek.

    I hope they get a chance to follow up on Kira's promise about Thomas's rescue from prison ( ::looks it up:: Dammit! Seems it was something Frakes wanted to do but something the producers specifically told the writers they were not interested in).

    Also interesting just how few FX shots are in this episode given the subject matter and events- very economical yet effective.

    For following up on Thomas, setting up some interesting Cardassian political/military elements- Definitely Essential.

    Trivia: Thomas Riker here calls the Defiant a "tough little ship". William Riker will call it the same thing in First Contact.



    [image=http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050909194650/memoryalpha/en/images/0/0c/Quark_and_Keiko.jpg]
    310: Fascination
    -Premise: Ambassador Lwaxana Troi visits the station to attend the Bajoran Gratitude Festival, resulting in an outbreak of passion throughout the station as people admit their secret feelings for others.

    -T2Q Comments: Kira seems a bit too eager to see Bareil, given the events that took place during The Collaborator. Keiko and Molly return. Mama Troi returns too.

    Crap, is this going to be "The Naked Lite"?

    Just...oy.

    oy!

    k, the fight had me laughing- especially since Sisko blocks nonchalantly what is obviously Bareil's full effort.

    I'm surprised they didn't make a link between Molly's illness and Mama Troi's condition, either as a reaction or inciting incident.

    Miles' storyline with his functionally dysfunctional marriage is pretty good- it's just a shame the silliness of the other plotline takes away from it. The comedy doesn't quite work here, except for a few fleeting moments (Dax talking with only her hands in frame behind Sisko).

    Not as TNG S1 bad as The Storyteller (the Miles storyline elevates it above that), but not good either. Ok Episode, But Not Essential.



    Up next: DS9 311 & 312: Past Tense, Parts I & II.



    The Babylon Project Log:

    -Space stations ending with a numerical designation that are of commerce ports in nature (prominently featuring a casino area), near a giant swirling blue vortex passageway (wormhole/jumpgate) used for travel and a location of advanced creation (prophet temple/Great Machine).
    -Hard-edged female second in command, pessimistic, sarcastic security chief. somewhat ethnic doctor.
    -Characters named Dukat/Dukhat
    -A spiritual race recently coming free of occupation by a more militaristic civilization, the conflict of which led the spiritual race to become more milita
     
  25. Koohii

    Koohii Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 30, 2003
    Psi-corps built it's own fleet? Um, when? Only thing I can think of that comes close (and I am limited to original 5 seasons + Crusade) was Clark's Shadow-Tech advanced destroyers.

    The Defiant: only good episode in Season 3, and only good episode I saw in the entire DS9 series before I gave up on it.

    Liuxana Troy episode--I think I turned that one off within 10 minutes. Hate mama troi episodes. Don't think there was a single good one.