Amph "You are of Bajor" A 'Trek' to 'Deep Space Nine'

Discussion in 'Community' started by Darth_Duck, Jan 4, 2006.

  1. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    The Psi-Corps fleet was first mentioned/glimpsed in Season 5's "The Corps is Mother, The Corps is Father", when Bester and the trainee are en route to B5, IIRC.

    They talk about how the secret fleet of motherships are used to ferry Psi-Corps shuttles around, staying in hyperspace, for now, until they're needed.

    This was basically setup for the Telepath War. I forget if the ships were touched upon in the script for the unfilmed Bester episode of Crusade, though I believe they are atleast mentioned, post-Telepath War, in the Psi-Corps novels.
  2. Jedimarine Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2001
    star 5
    "Defiant" is a mixed bag for me...by this point in the series, having cameos from TNG seems old...DS9 is established and doesn't need this kind of pandering, IMO.

    That said, beyond Frakes, the plot is decent, even if it's somewhat of a rehash of a similar Cardassian story from TNG...the difference being secrecy between the Cardassians, which elevates the drama, as 2nd mentions.

    A solid episode, but not great.

    ---

    "Fascination" is a TERRIBLE plot idea, and Luxanna makes me want to change the channel immediately, but where "The Naked Now" in TNG was a complete disaster, DS9 makes this work because of stellar cast chemistry and excellent character depth and portrayal. I have said before I wondered what TNG could've done with "Naked Now" had it been a season 7 episode...well, DS9, with it's superior ensemble, do far better in season 3!

    Much like SG-1, and Firefly...some really junky plots are salvaged into enjoyable episodes on the strength of the cast and their chemistry...this is a great example.
  3. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    I agree the cast handles the material much better than S1 TNG did. I think only Quark and, most particularly, Odo come across the worst (Quark because his scene is brief and at the end, Odo because he's used for more slapstick physical comedy (him spinning away arms out, etc) which doesn't suit the character and pulls me out the episode.

    Dax and Sisko are amusing just because it's so "eww" awkward (and, as I mentioned, has a few of the only really funny parts). I hated how Bareil acted. Jake was middle of the road excusable because of his age and general naive gee-whiz-dad portrayal. And the chemistry between Kira and Bashir was cheating ;).

    Mama Troi almost doesn't register in the episode because she's her usual annoying self but since her antics are being overshadowed by those around her who don't normally act that way, she just blends in (perhaps to the plot's benefit- though, wasn't there a TNG episode about a Betazoid disease affecting telepathy or empathic ability?).

    I think what really distinguishes this effort from TNG S1 is also the presence of a serious plot with Miles/Keiko to anchor the episode. The Naked Now was just everyone acting funny, with even Data magically being affected.


    And I assume you refer to The Wounded, with O'Brien's old commander going rogue? Funny you mention that episode- I hadn't made the connection to the similarity in plots between the two episodes, but I DID think of that episode (and O'Brien's general anti-Cardassian backstory) when Riker yelled at Miles- the aforementioned follow-up I thought was coming.

    I suspected that maybe there was a memory of O'Brien's history that Thomas had without the context of Will's service alongside him on the Enterprise to redeem it, which gave Thomas a negative opinion of Miles, and thought perhaps it had opened an old wound of his, thought-closed, in reaction.
  4. Koohii Jedi Grand Master

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    I thought T Riker blamed Miles for the transporter malfunction that left him stranded on the planet?
    Either that, or he was just being rude to keep Miles from interacting with him and discovering the fraud.
  5. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    Miles wasn't involved with the incident that led to the creation of Thomas- but I was guessing there might have been something along those lines.

    Knowing what happens in the episode, though, I think it's obvious Thomas just wanted to push away Miles since he'd be the most likely person to detect any faults in Thomas's performance as Will and blow his cover.
  6. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    I'll preface this by saying that it was around this time that I started to not catch DS9 regularly (though I think it had more to do with the airing times and the hype around Voyager than anything else).

    However, I recall catching parts of this 2 parter as it was around this time you started to see segments on the local news channels focusing on how DS9's acting and character focus (particularly Avery Brooks, as I'll soon comment on) was making it stand out from other Treks while addressing social issues like classic Trek and they were highlighting this 2 parter as part of those reports.

    I think that, outside of the Tribbles anniversary episode, this was likely the highpoint of media saturation/coverage/awareness for DS9, at least as far as I can recall within my own experience and perceptions.

    And, Koohii- if you didn't get this far in your viewing, I think you actually might like this 2-parter if you ever feel like tracking it down.


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    DS9 311: Past Tense, Part I
    -Premise: Trapped three hundred years in the past, Sisko, Bashir and Dax find themselves confronting one of the darkest hours in Earth's history...

    -T2Q Comments: Miles comes across more perplexed and less distressed than he should be over 3 command officers not materializing after using a transporter.

    Frank Military- now that's a name! Also appearing is the dad from Gremlins as the security officer. Ablative armor- but not the kick-ass batmobile type, alas.

    Amusing moment of temporal recognition- this guy Dax is talking to talks about going to high school back in the 90's, so this guy is somewhere close to in age to myself in 2024- given the time periods previously explored by Trek time travel episodes, this is the first that significantly crosses into my own lifespan (as I was only 5 years old when The Bounty went lookin' for whales, and Khan's eugenics war of the 90's contradicts reality). It's a curious moment.

    This computer tech guy's actor has a most unique quiet voice.

    This whole conversation on the steet between Sisko and Bashir is quite excellent and applicable to a scary degree to recent events- it's also quite fascinating that here you have members of Roddenberry's perfect humanity admitting it's quite possible humanity could turn back from that "perfection" if their support structure (the Federation) was removed and dire circumstances come to shove.

    I feel like there's a scene missing with them on the rooftop- they spend a decent amount of time in the episode focusing on getting the lay of the land and any exits via trying to get to a rooftop, but there's no "don't see a way out" payoff.

    BTW, I can't recall the last time Earth looked so damn bright and blue than it does here against the Defiant- probably because it's not lit as brightly as the Enterprise and spacedocks were on TNG, but still, you get that impression visually.

    My one reservation about this episode so far is how much of a random technobabble BS reason was used to facilitate the time travel here.

    Also it's kinda interesting to note the different attitudes towards 20th/21st century medicine between Bones and Bashir. Bones of 23rd Century medicine looks upon the 20th century medicine as barbaric, yet Bashir of the 24th see viable means of treatment in the 21st's.

    Interesting that, following the discussion of humanity's state of being should the support structure of the Federation be removed, that the timeline flux removes the Federation- I wonder if that is coincidence (could simply be an excuse to avoid allowing the Defiant crew to simply look for historical database info that would pinpoint when Sis
  7. Koohii Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2003
    star 5
    I got bored with the story somewhere around where the business dude was trying to romance Dax up in his high-rize and Bashir&Sisco were aimlessly wandering around. Probablly about 20 minutes into part 1.
  8. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    Hmm, I could see that- Dax's scenes were mostly filler/exposition (especially in part 2), though I found the conversations between Julian and Sisko to be intriguing. The eventual hostage/riot focus of the 2nd part is where the meat is, though.
  9. Jedimarine Force Ghost

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    Good 2 parter...the guest actors were particularly good...a testament to the reputation DS9 was earning (as 2nd stated.)

    The only problem with this one, now seeing it in reflection to the rest of the series..."Far Beyond the Stars"...which is a triumphant effort for the genre, let alone the franchise...overshadows this 2 parter somewhat.

    But I'll save further comments for when that episode comes up.

  10. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    [image=http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080810145413/memoryalpha/en/images/f/ff/Winn_bashir_bareil_life_support.jpg] [image=http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060908035436/memoryalpha/en/images/0/09/Negotiations_life_support.jpg] [image=http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060908041337/memoryalpha/en/images/c/cf/Jake_nog_trapped_life_support.jpg]
    DS9 313: Life Support
    -Premise: After a serious accident, Bashir struggles to save the life of Vedek Bareil while Kai Winn concludes a peace treaty with Cardassia. Jake and Nog reluctantly explore the differences between Federation and Ferengi cultures.

    -T2Q Comments: Winn returns, as does Bareil (in a more respectable state than his last appearance- unconcious ;) ).

    I'm already dreading this Nog/Jake double date subplot. The medical drama plot has been a bit dry so far- though the notion of diplomatic relations between Cardassia and Bajor holds promise.

    "I don't even know what a Tholian looks like!" hehe.

    The Jake/Nog/Sisko scenes, post-double-date weren't as bad as I had feared, though the date was. I'm surprised they offed Bareil (given the original intentions to make him Kai).

    While the peace treaty and the passing of Bareil are noteworthy (and may be important to coming events), this was still a bit of a dull episode. I'd normally have classified this as Average if not for the death and treaty. Potentially Essential, But Not Necessarily Good.

    Trivia: originally was about an ambassador negotiating with the Romulans and Julian had to Frankenstein him to bring him back from the dead, before the ambassador slowly went mad and had to die again. they felt no one cared about the ambassador, so they began looking at established characters. they originally considered O'Brien due to rumors Colm wanted to concentrate on films, a rumor he denied and thus declined the role here. Then they went to Bareil after being unhappy with the direction the Bareil/Kira relationship was taking and the lack of an idea of where he was going as a character.

    It was Ronald Moore's idea to pair a light B-story with the grim A-Story, but it was a decision they ultimately regretted as they felt the two stories just didn't work well together.


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    DS9 314: Heart of Stone
    -Premise: Searching for a Maquis raider on an unstable moon, Kira is trapped in an expanding crystal formation that threatens to engulf her if Odo cannot set her free. Meanwhile, Nog attempts to persuade a skeptical Commander Benjamin Sisko to write him a letter of recommendation to join Starfleet Academy.

    -T2Q Comments: Nog wanting to join Starfleet- actually an interesting idea, at least it gives the character some potential purpose going forward.

    The probe seems to be a slow means of transmission- why not take the Runabout up to orbit, clear of the interference, to send out your message, then return back to the surface for Kira? Here's another solution, Odo- get Kira a metal tube to breathe out of through her mouth, so when the crystal engulfs her face, it'll go around the tube (which can be extended/added onto if needed) and she can be kept alive until help arrives.

    Origin of Odo's name here. Odo and Kira's confession of love, while expected at some point, feels ill timed being back to back with Bareil's death.

    Nog's confession scene is surprisingly good- who'd have thought there'd ever be a honestly touching scene involving a Ferengi?

    Ah, the twist negates my earlier concerns over the proximity to Bareil's death. Very good episode- and since this plot thread of Nog's seems to go forward, and the nice reminder that the Dominion is still present, this seems like a decently important episode, so I'll go with Definitely
  11. Koohii Jedi Grand Master

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    May 30, 2003
    star 5
    Yeah, the plotlines that revolved around the Kai were ones I gave up on and skipped. You have to care about the religious structure and the characters, and I don't. Really, Kira's millitant Bajor stance just makes it impossible for me to give a damn about her or her planet. Ro Laren was a much more interesting character, for all her more generic Starfleet background.

    Nog's reasons for wanting to join starfleet were interesting, but not enough to make up for the rest of the episode. The confession from Odo just felt painfully out-of-character and wrong.
  12. Darth_Omega Force Ghost

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    May 19, 2002
    star 6
    Heh, we didn't hear any thing from you for a month and now you have watched 3 DS9 episodes. :p
  13. Jedimarine Force Ghost

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    star 5
    Isn't that the point though? We are talking about the grinch of the series revealing not only that he has a heart, but it beats for a "SOLID".

    I don't know how you make Odo revealing such a thing seem natural because, to the universe, it is unnatural for him.

    The fact that it's awkward might make it so true...it's not poetry and passion...it's a guy with no clue, stumbling into feelings.
  14. Koohii Jedi Grand Master

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    6
  15. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    I've been busy :p.

    In fact, there probably were some things I probably should have been doing the last couple days instead of marathon-watching Star Trek, but i needed a break ;).

    I aim to at least keep a good viewing pace on average, so even if there are gaps between large viewing chunks, it should space out nicely :). (no pun intended :oops:)


    As for the relgious stories- they can be hit or miss to me. Like Marine pointed out awhile back, it almost feels like two different shows when they toggle back and forth between the Kai stories and the starfleet stories.

    Life Support, though, isn't uninteresting because of it being a Kai story, IMO- it's just the execution and pacing of the material, combined with a general ambivilence towards Bareil. The treaty stuff and Wynn's need for both an assistant and a scapegoat were interesting elements with some potential- it's just they ended up being mostly background flavor to the Bashir/Bareil Frankenstein/Kavorkian plot.

    I mean how much of this episode consisted of Bariel on the bed as Wynn asks him for treaty details, Bashir protests & Bariel insists? It was the same thing over and over and no real progress happened in the story until the positronic brain facet and Bashir confronting Wynn and revealing the scapegoat element- and that was all essentially at the end of the episode.
  16. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    DS9 315: Destiny
    -Premise: An ancient Bajoran prophecy of doom complicates the first joint Bajoran, Cardassian, and Federation science mission, which is a wormhole relay station, an attempt to establish a permanent communications link through the wormhole.

    -T2Q Comments: Vedek Stargate Papa. I'm amused that they sorta have that whole semi-unrelated Quark scene in the teaser because otherwise the actual teaser cliffhanger is just a 15 second scene.

    Lochley as Cardassian #2.

    The diagram of the wormhole and transmitters reminds me of the Whale Probe- totally unrelated, of course, but it does evoke a wireframe of that.

    Interesting observation on Sisko's perspective on the whole Emissary thing from the pilot.

    O'Brien's history with Cardassians makes the Caradassian nerd-crush on him all the more awkwardly amusing.

    Good Episode, But Not Necessarily Essential.

    Trivia: This was originally pitched as a second season episode but went under heavy changes until they settled on the prophecy being one of doom (it was originally one of happiness and was apaprently quite dull). The writing staff consider this episode and the later Accession and Rapture ones as a self-contained "Emissary Trilogy".




    Up next: DS9 316: Prophet Motive & DS9 317: Visionary.


    The Babylon Project Log:

    -Space stations ending with a numerical designation that are of commerce ports in nature (prominently featuring a casino area), near a giant swirling blue vortex passageway (wormhole/jumpgate) used for travel and a location of advanced creation (prophet temple/Great Machine).
    -Hard-edged female second in command, pessimistic, sarcastic security chief. somewhat ethnic doctor.
    -Characters named Dukat/Dukhat
    -A spiritual race recently coming free of occupation by a more militaristic civilization, the conflict of which led the spiritual race to become more militant themselves.
    -Gambler conman (Quark/Londo) has somewhat fluctuating antagonistic friendship with hard-edged chief of security (Odo/Garabaldi).
    -Characters played by Julie Caitlin Brown have a long-standing grudge against a notorious murderer who has prolonged their life at the expense of others through scientific experimentation (Rao Vantika/Jha'dur "Deathwalker").
    -The term "Changeling" has significance in relation to early parts of both series (the B5 pilot "the Gathering" and DS9's "Vortex" & beyond), though applied to different elements (technology versus a species).
    -A main character slowly constructs a device (chrysalis/clock) piece of piece in their quarters while conversing with a subordinate .
    -A main character often referred to as Chief (Miles/Garibaldi) has a recurring assistant (Neela/garibaldi's Aide) who is a plant by another faction that attempts to bring about political change by assassinating a prominent rival leader (Bariel/Santiago) in the first season finale so that one of their faction may replace him (Adami/Clark). Their plot is uncovered by the Chief character.
    -The Circle/Homeguard Bajoran for Bajorans, vandalism with a symbol; subdues and brands an alien on the middle of the forehead with their logo
    -Second Season opens with a command officer (Sinclair/Kira) being reassigned from the station to be among the religious order of a species heavily involved with the operation of the station, partly due to prophecy
    -A near-human alien race has their hair up in a fan-style to represent social status.
    -A character played by Julia Nickson (Catherine/Cassandra) romances (or attempts to romance) the commander of the station (Sinclair/Sisko).
    -Characters have discussion of higher and lower lifeforms awareness of each other to that of ants (Odo & Kira/G'Kar & Catherine Sakai).
    -3rd Season Premiere introduces a new prototype warship for use by th
  17. Koohii Jedi Grand Master

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    May 30, 2003
    star 5
    I remember vaguely not totally hating this episode. Which, considering the rest of my opinion of the show, is high praise indeed.
  18. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    [image=http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20051112192917/memoryalpha/en/images/5/56/Zek_inside_orb.jpg]
    DS9 316: Prophet Motive
    -Premise: Grand Nagus Zek has become a philanthropist, and Quark worries that he may have gone insane.

    -T2Q Comments:

    [image=http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050420064650/memoryalpha/en/images/4/44/Oomox.jpg] This is a rather disturbing way to open an episode.

    The dart game mindtricks are amusing.

    "Greed is dead- that's the 10th Rule of Acquisiion!"
    "No it's not! The 10th Rule of Acquisition is Greed is Eternal!"

    The Nagus's head in the box reminds me too much of Pee-Wee's Playhouse.

    Quark's encounter with the wormhole aliens is actually a mostly neat sequence- but it took us a long ways to get there.

    So, despitre an interesting scene or two, I just find the Nagus too annoying for them to compensate for. Average.

    Trivia: Directed by Rene, the dart game introduced here was originally going to be a pool table until they were told Voyager had taken that idea, then they thought of cards but felt it would be copying TNG, so they settled on Darts.


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    DS9 317: Visionary
    -Premise: O'Brien makes repeated jumps through time; a Romulan delegation visits the station.

    -T2Q Comments: The Dominion are the greatest threat to the Alpha Quadrant in the last century? Uh, hello? THE BORG?!

    "You think Quark had something to do with this?"
    (almost perplexed) "I always investigate Quark."

    DS9 Kaboom! Rather spectacular one at that. This is the first and only time DS9 is destroyed (unless you want to count it's unfortunate battle with Babylon 6 ;)).

    This scene with Miles talking to the future Miles in his bedroom shouldn't be possible- each time Miles timeflashed forward, he was able to alter that future outcome through the knowledge of his flashforward after he returned, so, if he flashforwarded to the destruction of DS9 where Future Miles was asleep and, thus, wasn't aware of the circumstances of the destruction (in other words, the future version of Miles if he hadn;t be warned of the destruction), his knowledge of that future upon his return would have altered that future- specifically, when he returns to the future, the Miles he awakens in bed should now be aware of the pending destruction (and probably shouldn't be in bed to begin with), as he should now be the future version of himself with that knowledge. In other words, this circumstance shouldn't exist anymore.

    They TRY to address this regarding the radiation, but the radiation effect should be a secondary concern to the impossibility of reality.

    Romulans used a confined temporal singularity to power their warp core? Are you telling me that a Romulan Warbird is technically...a time machine? [face_laugh] Well, I guess if you're gonna make a time machine, why not do it with some style! ;)

    Beyond the jokes, why the hell would that not have caused problems before?

    OK, this whole Miles thing is starting to fall apart. The idea of the Miles swap is a good basic concept, but the execution, sheesh...Also Miles shouldn't remember a game happening at this point.

    So this was a pretty solid time travel story up until it just all falls apart in the end for no good reason- everything that happens and everything that Miles learns in that timeflash could have been learned without that Miles being unaware of the pending destruction.

    So there's some interesting follow-up to the Romulan/Federation aspects, the events of The Search and Odo/Kira, and it's a pretty good episode despite the large logical fallacy at the end. It's Potentially Essential in that regards, but I'll go with Good Episode for now.

    Trivia: Originally it was Odo who jumps forward to see
  19. Koohii Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2003
    star 5
    So, "annoying" followed by "makes no sense"? Yeah, that about sums up my impression of the entire season/series.

    I noticed the romulan warbird model kit piece/medical tool when I watched the episode. Seems like they were running out of idead. What's next, using a Gillette Lady Shaver as the base for a communicator? Oh wait...
  20. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    Well, I can't discount the 85% of the episode that I liked just because the ending screwed up it's details.
  21. Koohii Jedi Grand Master

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    May 30, 2003
    star 5
    That's where we differ. If the details get pointlessly screwed up at any point, beginning, middle, end, red-herring side trip, I get annoyed. Have you picked up your copy of Nitpickers' Guide to Deep Space Trekkers yet?
  22. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    Oh, not saying it's not annoying- but it's more "Oh, you were doing so well..."
  23. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    So, "Distant Voices"...

    [image=http://www.denimfilms.com/boardpics/bashheadintocomputer.gif]
  24. Koohii Jedi Grand Master

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    May 30, 2003
    star 5
    Could you be more specific?
  25. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    I will in my full review, but, suffice it to say, it's a 15 min story padded out to a full episode with repeated, overly-redundnat, blatant explanation of the symbology being used in the concept- made all the more frustrating because there was incredible potential in the episode.