1. Welcome to the new boards! Details here!

Amph "You are of Bajor" A 'Trek' to 'Deep Space Nine'

Discussion in 'Community' started by Darth_Duck, Jan 4, 2006.

  1. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Jan 27, 2000
    BTW, Marine, you on vacation or something, buddy?

    [image=] [image=] [image=]
    DS9 318: Distant Voices
    -Premise: After an alien assault leaves Bashir unconscious, he is trapped inside his mind.

    -T2Q Comments: Garek! huzzah!

    Bashir is turning 30- he always struck me as younger. But then, I'm turning 30 in a few months, so that kinda makes me feel pretty good, ha.

    TAhe turbolift ceiling doesn't seem to be constructed of material that was intended to be banged upon, heh. Age makeup...this doesn't bode well.

    Can one really rely on instrumentation within a coma-induced hallucination/dream to verify for the comatosed individual that they are, in fact, in a coma? I don't think so.

    "When I'm talking to you, I'm really only talking to myself."
    "So, you're saying I'm you?"
    "In a manner of speaking."
    "And I suppose he's you too?"

    WHAT DID HE JUST SAY. :mad: :oops:

    They're explaining all the symbology way too much- there is no subtlety here whatsoEVER AND OH MY GOD STOP TALKING WE GET IT ALREADY!!!

    Having this Lithian guy represent death in this moody setting hints at such potential that part of this structure could have had if they hadn't made this episode go horrible.

    So let me get this straight- they wasted several minutes having the characters act strangely/goofy to set up the huge Explain-The-Concept-With-The-Finese-Of-A-Hydrogen-Bomb scene and establish their function/what they represent...only to kill almost all of them off practically immediately afterwards. What. The. ****. Really, they could have spent them time with alt-Miles instead since he's the only one that actually does anything in the episode.

    I think they have Quark's actor performing/recorded without the lisp here...

    The last couple scenes (after the Lithian reveal) do further illustrate some of the potential this episode could have had- there may be the one TNG episode I wanted to re-edit, but this is one DS9 episode I wouldn't mind rewriting.


    Trivia: The anecdote of Bashir mixng up fibers links a comment made by Bahsir in Season 1's "Q-Less" with events in Season 5. Though the Season 5 plot had not yet been conceived yet, the inclusion here is due to pressure from the writer's wife, a pre-vet, who had been annoyed by the comment in Season 1, knowing the two fibers were nothing alike.

    [image=] [image=] [image=]
    DS9 319: Through the Looking Glass
    -Premise: In the "mirror universe," Sisko must persuade the alternate version of his dead wife to join the Terran Rebels, or he will watch her die a second time.

    -T2Q Comments: Mirror Universe again, huzzah! er.. hazzuh!

    Mirror Tuvok cameo. Sisko seems to know how to impersonate Mirror Sisko a little too quickly, and you'd think a surprise like Dax mackin' on him might throw him off his game for a moment.

    I don't think it's possible to wear an outfit tighter than Mirror Kira's (I'll note, however, that I had not yet seen Gem's costume in TRON: Legacy at the time I originally wrote this [face_love]).

    Duel-weilding Sisko :cool:. There's not a lot to say- solid action episode, awesome AU episode.

    Definitely Essential.

    Trivia: This episode contains the only reference to the Romulans in the Mirror Universe. Alliance ships decloak here, which apparently directly contradicts the premise of a future Mirror Universe episode. Avery Brooks was very happy when the script as Sisko has sex in
  2. RK_Striker_JK_5

    RK_Striker_JK_5 Jedi Grand Master star 7

    Jul 2, 2003
    There is a possible explanation that they don't go to the same mirror universe each time.

    Although I love DSN, I feel they messed up the concept of the mirror universe.
  3. Jedimarine

    Jedimarine Jedi Master star 5

    Feb 13, 2001
    I'm touched you noted my absence. 2 factors-

    1. Steady employment
    2. I got really tired of getting browser warnings for the forums, so I've been staying away until things were resolved. (they are resolved, right?)

    Was curious to see how much progress you'd made...not much I see...well with SGU canned, you should have another hour a week free.[face_laugh]

    Not much to chime in with on the current episodes...I'm barely awake right now. one in me...I love the mirror universe stuff...I'll take mirror over time travel everytime...and DS9 does it best because unlike the other series, you can actually "buy" these characters taking a different turn and following these darker paths. As opposed to say "evil Archer" HA![face_laugh]

    Keep em coming, 2nd...I'll get back up to speed soon.
  4. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Jan 27, 2000
    I'm actually the virus that replaced The2ndQuest.


    They're resolved now- someone slipped something into some of the code we share with IGN, or something like that.

    As far as progress goes- the holidays were really crazy for me, so far as free time goes, and I'd been trying to find the right time for Generations, since I had been looking forward to doing a full review of it for awhile now.

    Finally did it and got all my notes typed down, but I'm low on sleep after a couple back-to-back 12-15 hour work days this past weekend so I'll probably convert the notes into my review tommorow.

    One thing's for review style keeps getting longer and longer... [face_laugh]

    Notes Word-Counts:
    ST1: 220
    ST2: 467
    ST3: 658
    ST4: (notes missing)
    ST5: 1028
    ST6: 660
    Generations: 3,272
  5. Kitty1

    Kitty1 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Mar 19, 2009
    hehehe Deep Space Nine was always a fav of mine. I was wondering when someone would start a thread for it. ^_^ meow

    Hello everyone [face_peace]
  6. katie9918

    katie9918 Jedi Master star 1

    May 28, 2002
    My favorite of the Trek series.

    It took a little while for my love to burn, but once season four came along, there was no other Trek series (or many other TV series in general) that could touch it.
  7. Chancellor_Ewok

    Chancellor_Ewok Force Ghost star 7

    Nov 8, 2004
    Agreed. I didn't really watch DS9 when it was first on partially because I was a bit too young to really grasp Deep Space Nine, and because I was more of a Next Gen/Voyager fan, but I've since seen a lot of DS9 in reruns and its by far the most subtle and nuanced Trek series. It really pushes Trek's comfort zone too. IMO In the Pale Moonlight is one of the most brilliant Star Trek episodes ever.
  8. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Jan 27, 2000
    [image=] [image=] [image=]
    DS9 320: Improbable Cause
    -Premise: Odo begins an investigation after a bomb destroys Garak's tailor shop.

    -T2Q Comments: Garek, huzzah!

    "Are you sure that's the message?"
    "Of course, what else could it be?"
    "That you should never tell the same lie twice."

    "Who do you think he's going to lead you to?"
    "If I knew that, I wouldn't have to follow him."

    Interesting complications of adding Romulans as possible suspects- keeps things a wild card.

    "Why would the Romulans want Mr. Garek killed?"
    "I don;t know- considering their uniforms, you'd think they'd appreciate a decent taylor."

    Neat scene with Odo's "deep throat" contact.

    " doesn't matter. I'm back."

    Didn't realize this was a two-parter! Good follow-up with Etain and the secret ships being constructed by the Obsidian Order, and a nice concept of someone bypassing Starfleet to make a first strike against the Dominion, not to mention answers about Garek's past. Definitely Essential.

    Trivia: This was originally a stand-alone episode, which would have ended with Etain being forced to free Garek and Odo else he risk the information on the road he told Bashir about be given to Starfleet, but this was felt to be an unsatisfactory ending. Michael Pillar's final decision as executive producer was to suggest they turn it into a two-parter, combined with The Die is Cast, which was also intended to originally be a single episode.

    It was Ronald Moore's suggestion to overhaul the Romulan unfiform design: "I hated, underline hated, the Romulan costumes. Big shoulder pads, the quilting, I just loathed it. I begged, insisted, screamed, pleaded.".

    The first two-parter with different names for Part I & Part II. Also the first two-parter/multi-part story arc to be directed by a cast member (Avery Brooks). The BBC broadcast this in a feature-length format for it's first airing.

    [image=] [image=] [image=]
    [image=] [image=] [image=]
    DS9 321: The Die is Cast
    -Premise: The Cardassian-Romulan fleet enters the Gamma Quadrant. Sisko tries to rescue Odo.

    -T2Q Comments: Cardassians with cloaking technology, dunt-dunt-dah! Awesome shot of the mixed leet of Romulan Warbirds and Cardassian Whatevers just ignoring DS9 as they pass by. This is the first time that I've seriously considered skipping past the opening titles- not because I've grown tired of the intro (still not gonna happen!), but rather this is the first teaser that has made me want to see what happens next immediately.

    The half-betrayal of this one officer seems kinda obvious since he's only just appeared now (unless he was in previous episodes and I'm forgetting?).

    Love Odo's delivery- "Oh, no- you're going to torture me, aren't you? How I've been dreading this.". Just noticing this, but these (presumably) newer "black" (probably just the lighting) Romulan uniforms look much better than the standard issue shoulder pad ones (thank you Ronald Moore!). Ooh, Odo's decomposure is more gruesome than I expected.

    Though the result of the attack plan is somewhat what i expected, there is a good twist or two involved.

    Raise shields
  9. CaptainPeabody

    CaptainPeabody Jedi Master star 3

    Jul 15, 2008
    DS9 is absolutely my favorite Star Trek show, and it's nice to sort of relive it through your eyes.

    As for the episodes in question, yeah...this is where it really starts to get good. Personally, I think that the best of the first few seasons stands up absolutely to what comes later...but there's no denying the overall quality and entertainment value goes up from here on out.

    Michael Eddington (the 'traitor' in this episode) actually appeared before in The Search (first episode of this season), introduced as a new security officer who's infringing on Odo's position. He appears relatively infrequently compared to some others, but is definitely a recurring character, growing in prominence from here on out.

  10. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost star 7

    Jun 8, 2006
    TNG is my fave Trek but even though DS9 took awhile to grow on me, I eventually grew to love it (for the most part, Pah-Wraiths of latter seasons, not so much.)

    Starting in 'Shadowplay' I grew curious about Odo. This was the first ep he showed true feeling to me and it was a cute story. Then in 'The Search' he found his people. The Die Is Cast/In Purgatory's Shadow is a *stellar* two-parter for Odo and Garak--an unlikely pair of allies if there ever was one.

    I also love 'The Begotten' when Odo met a baby Changeling.

    My other main fave character was Julian Bashir. He was bold, tender, and faithful. *Love* his relationship with Elim Garak, especially as it grew over the series.

    My other fave guest character is Gul Dukat, hands down. Marc Alaimo and Andy Robinson are simply fabulous!

    A couple of early eps that have my respect are: 'Duet'and 'Second Skin'. Never could stand Kira, I like the Cardassian elements.
  11. Jedimarine

    Jedimarine Jedi Master star 5

    Feb 13, 2001
    AWESOME 2-parter.

    As I recall from watching the series in it's first run...I think it was about here that I started to realize this was the best thing on television, let alone the best Star Trek ever. It became "can't miss" for me from this point.

    Of course this ran hand in hand with the insanity of trying to find it on the dial because of the syndication limbo it faced.

    If they would've moved this series to UPN as a lead in to Voyager...I may have watched more UPN/Voyager in the early years.
  12. RX_Sith

    RX_Sith C&G Game Host star 5 VIP - Game Host

    Mar 13, 2006
    These two episodes are where DS9 started to become dark and awesome. It was a major deviation from the Star Trek that was too feel goodish, and I really liked where they took it to. Gul Dukat was about as much a part of DS9 as where the Federation. He never really left Terok Nor, and it was because of this that he was a very good character who disliked the Federation so much you could see it on his Cardassian face.
  13. katie9918

    katie9918 Jedi Master star 1

    May 28, 2002
    Without giving anything away, yes, these two episodes are EXTREMELY important and as great as they were, the eventual follow-up BLOWS THEM OUT OF THE WATER.
  14. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Jan 27, 2000
    [image=] [image=]
    [image=] [image=]
    DS9 322: Explorers
    -Premise: Sisko builds a replica of an eight hundred-year-old Bajoran spaceship, and tries to use it to prove that Bajoran explorers could have made it to Cardassia without developing warp drive.

    -T2Q Comments: "Go Away" [face_laugh]

    Goatee Sisko.

    Ha, that's funny- I was just browsing a Starships of the Line book yesterday and they had a picture of this Bajoran solar sailor in it.

    You know, i mean it's obvious ever since they were announced, but datapads are sooo an ipad/kindle/nook.

    I see that they're still doing the ship/station divide on the uniforms here. Not the best of drunk scenes, but certainly fitting TOS's Scotty scenes.

    "Hammock time!" please tell me that wasn't an attempt at a "hammer time!" reference. Because that would mean popular historical works of music for Starfleet personnel would include Mozart, Bach... and MC Hammer.

    You know, this whole time i was thinking how much this felt like a Season 1 or 2 episode in terms of a quiet little adventure without the threat of war- and while it's still a little odd having this directly follow a major war episode, Dukat's semi-friendly nature in this at the end kinda pays off the increased shared experiences he and Sisko have had over the past season or so- the fireworks are completely unexpected, and yet it kinda fits as showing even the Cardassians are willing to (grudgingly) celebrate the aspects of exploration.

    Overall, a nice filler episode with some decent character work for Sisko and Jake. The Bashir plotline is a little less successful, but no harm done.

    Good Episode, But Not Necessarily Essential.

    Trivia: The conversation between Bashir and Lense may be actually commenting on the differences between TNG & DS9: "Bashir believes Lense "must've had quite an adventure out there... exploring uncharted space, meeting fascinating new races with fascinating new diseases" aboard the USS Lexington, but she instead describes how bored she got between discoveries. The message especially comes through when Lense claims, "I really envy the opportunity you have to work on that kind of long-term project. On the Lexington, it was collect your samples and then on to the next system.").

    The song sung by Miles and Julian was chosen by Colm after the producers were unable to get the rights to Louie, Louie, Rocket Man or Space Oddity.

    And again, Memory-Alpha spoils something unnecessarily regarding Leeta. It's relatively minor, but still- why?

    [image=] [image=]
    DS9 323: Family Business
    -Premise: Quark's mother violates Ferengi law by earning profit.

    -T2Q Comments: Following up on the Jake-sets-Sisko-up-on-a-date subplot from Explorers.

    "Nog isn't going to destroy the way of Ferengi life- he just wants a job with better hours"

    The Ferengi FCA guy is played by Andorian Dude.

    "The Rubicon it is. You know, at the rate we go through Runabouts, it's a good thing the Earth has so many rivers."- isn't it kinda funny how closely DS9 tracked it's Runabouts yet how loose Voyager ultimately was with it's shuttlecrafts?

    First look at the Ferengi homeworld, Ferenginar. As much as they try to make the Ferengi more sympathetic in this series, it's still hard for them to justify the way they treat their women and maintain that sympathy (plus we never need hear "Mother, get undressed this instant" again [face_sick] ).

    "The Chief told me."

    Mama Quark naked a
  15. Jedimarine

    Jedimarine Jedi Master star 5

    Feb 13, 2001
    Explorers is decent, despite the fact that is does feel bizarrely out of place in the series considering the dark times they are entering.

    Family Business is definitely essential, 2nd...Mama Quark will not be silenced! Better get used to it.
  16. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Jan 27, 2000
    It'll be easier to get used to if she'll keep her damn clothes on :p
  17. Jedimarine

    Jedimarine Jedi Master star 5

    Feb 13, 2001
    Her level of dress/undress seems less disturbing then Quark & Rom's "concern" about it.
  18. Koohii

    Koohii Jedi Master star 5

    May 30, 2003
    I wasn't as wound up as everyone else seems to be by that 2-parter. It was there, but I still wasn't impressed by the millitary threat of the Gamma Quadrant. In fact, I would say the one area TNG, DS9, and Voyager all failed to really do well was anything outright millitant and hostile. I never bought into it.

    Jake-based episode. (Blech) Boring character. or non-character. At least Wesley wanted to join StarFleet. Jake... wants to be... a writer???

    And the horrible, horrible, horrible Ferrengi comic relief episode.
    It's things like that which caused me to give up on the series completely. They are not only painful in and of themselves, but the mere reminder of them as the characters appear in other episodes, even mildly enjoyable ones, brings any good episode down.
  19. RK_Striker_JK_5

    RK_Striker_JK_5 Jedi Grand Master star 7

    Jul 2, 2003
    What's the problem with wanting to be a writer? Jake is flawed-not an uberkid like Wesley, and is pretty realistic compared to the brat.
  20. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Jan 27, 2000
    Yes, I think that articulates the ick-factor better. If it weren't for that, it almost wouldn't be any worse than Mama Troi.

    See, I actually find Jake's story more interesting than Wesley's (even ignoring Wesley's wonderboy status). Wesley, on one level, represented the desire to join what was (in theory) presented as an ideal organization that represented the best of humanity and other races. And that's all well and good, but not everyone's going to want to join Starfleet- there are other pursuits and careers in the galaxy.

    What I like about Jake's story is that you'd expect him to be like Wesley and want to join Starfleet- son of two Starfleet officers, growing up on starships and stations commanded by his Starfleet father. Him breaking that expectation is unique for a recurring character and gives us a new perspective to the franchise.

    It's also one reason why I like Nog's story- it's a different take on the ideal Wesley represented. But instead of Ace the Wonderboy practically being bred into that acreer path, you have a member of one of the lowliest species in the series going against societal norms to pursue that ideal.

    Instead of the A student son of notable ivory school alumni trying to get into Harvard, it's the street merchant son of scam artists from a 3rd world country trying to do the same.

    It is sometimes annoying when something you don't care for keeps returning (Mama Troi, the Kazon, etc), but sometimes even subpar elements can eventually contribute good things to the fanchise.

    In this case, while the majoruty of the Ferengi society-focused episodes have not been to my liking, I love Quark and Odo's interaction, the occasional sparks of promise from Rom, and, particularly, Nog's ambition to join Starfleet. If Trek had just outright dropped an unsuccessful element like the Ferengi all together after their introduction, I wouldn't be getting that from this series now.

    DS9 324: Shakaar
    -Premise: Kira's old Resistance leader refuses a government order to return some farming equipment.

    -T2Q Comments: Kira praying for Bareil- I'm guessing this will be the last we hear of him...ok, they mentioned him again, heh. Kira does visit a lot of remote farmers that are being uncooperative with a government, doesn't she? Hey, didn't they use this hillside area to film parts of Insurrection?

    Not much to say about the episode- it's pretty straight forward. The resistance stuff wasn't too bad. Depending on how important Shakaar ends up being (or, at least how important his introduction is to his subsequent appearances) will ultimately determine this episode's fate but for now we'll say Potentially Essential- always nice to see Kai Wynn lose one.

    DS9 325: Facets
    -Premise: Dax performs the Trill zhian'tara ritual, which allows her to meet her previous hosts.

    -T2Q Comments: Continuation of Nog's efforts to get into Starfleet. Leeta pops up again. Reference to the killer host of Dax's past. Is this thing really gonna work on Odo? You know it's kinda funny- this episode is doing for Dax almost what Faces did for Torres in a sort of literal dividing of personalities or components of a person. Also kinda funny that some of the producers would do an episode like this after being iffy about doing so on Voyager.

    Kira's character is almost played like an old woman- it borders on characiture but she does pull off something more natural ul
  21. Koohii

    Koohii Jedi Master star 5

    May 30, 2003
    Yes, the Ferrengi kid's story was good. He had a reason, an aspiration to higher things. Jake's motive is... To be a non-entity, pretty much boring.

    Dax's past lives: eh.
    The changelings: still not really impressed by them as a threat.

    As for the possiblity of the low points making the show better some how, I don't see it happening. But the good news: you've now reached the point where I gave up trying to watch the series, so I won't be butting in anymore.
  22. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Jan 27, 2000
    Your perspectve is always welcome, even if I don't agree with it often ;).

    Though my review will be up in a couple days, having already watched The Way of the Warrior, I would suggest you consider checking it out. It's a feature-length episode involving some good ol' Federation/Klingon troubles, brings in Worf and has a kick-ass battle and can function mostly as a stand-alone. I found it to be one of the best action-oriented Trek "films"/2-parters.

    Coincidentally enough, it was shortly after WOTW that I stopped watching DS9 during it's original run- mostly stemming from how awesome WOTW was and how the content/fcus on the subsequent episode(s) paled by comparison*.

    So, you might be able to relate to it ;).

    As to Jake aspiring to be a non-entity...I wouldn't consider being a writer a non-entity- especially in the Federation, where they seem to place a higher value on the arts (theater, music & literature in particular) than we do today.

    *However, we'll see how my current perspective/opinion comapres to that of Middle-School-Me's. ;)
  23. Jedimarine

    Jedimarine Jedi Master star 5

    Feb 13, 2001
    In truth...I think this is a deliberate use of the character as the "anti-Wesley"...he's not a genius...not a physical uber man...not an aspiring Captain.

    Just because the universe is open to you doesn't mean you have to take the most incredible path...Jake's motivations are he an exciting or even interesting character? Not hardly...but that doesn't make him "bad".

    Coincidentally, I believe as Jake developed, they had hope to develop a little more "strain" between Ben and Jake over his choices and his father's dreams (see "The Visitor"...very soon). But I think this failed, either because they decided Trek wasn't ready for that level of realism, or Brooks couldn't deliver on being that kind of jerk father (bring to mind comparisons with Hammond on SG-1, a character intended as an obstacle, but the actor and the ensemble led them down a warmer path.)

    So Jake becomes a fly on the wall...he's there, but not making much impact (usually)...but that can be okay.
    Ultimately, his "life" becomes less story fodder as he gets older...the father/son elements become more the point that in some cases you start to wonder "why is he here?"

    But...people have a habit of being where they don't belong, which also becomes a part of Jake going forward...eventually leading to...spoiler...[hl=black]his staying on an enemy occupied station...where, in truth, he plays his most vital role in the series.[/hl]

    Jake is a boring guy...he's got simple dreams by the franchises ambitions...but those people have to exist might burn up Roddenberry a bit...but all the better. In the end, he makes his contributions in a less fantastic manner...but he's still a part of what made DS9 a full and developed product compared to the other offerings.
  24. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Jan 27, 2000
    Well, without having seen The Visitor yet, I liked that they avoided the Sisko-doesn't-approve-of-his-son's-career-path cliche.

    It's what you would have expected them to do, but instead (so far), while he might need some time to fully come to terms with it, Sisko being supportively is a more pleasant surprise than having to endure needless "my father doesn't support what i want to do with my life" melodrama.

    It also enhances the family element that TNG and DS9 had for awhile, that made it accesisble to a lot of kids.
  25. Jedimarine

    Jedimarine Jedi Master star 5

    Feb 13, 2001

    [hl=black]Wait until Alexander comes back!