Amph "You are of Bajor" A 'Trek' to 'Deep Space Nine'

Discussion in 'Community' started by Darth_Duck, Jan 4, 2006.

  1. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    [face_laugh] Well, if what you are implying is true, then I'm glad they didn't double the melodrama with two father/son issues ;)
  2. Koohii Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2003
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    Well, I asked a friend when I was getting bored with season 1. "Oh, it starts to get good in Season 2 ep 18." Uh, no. "Well, really, it started to get good in season 3." um, 1 good episode, a couple that were OK, 3 or 4 that sucked, and a couple that were just too damn painful to watch past the openning credits... uh, ah, no. "Well, in season 4--" You know what, never mind. I just don't care. 3 years to start to get good? Forget it. That's a pretty good sign that your show was poorly thought out, and generally sucks. If you haven't got your show on it's feet and at steam by the end of 3 EPISODES, it's time to rethink.
  3. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    I understand your reasoning- if the series hasn't been your thing to this point, it makes sense for you not to continue it as a series. I only suggested WOTW since it's mostly stand-alone (or, Worf-wise, cold be seen as a minor bridge between Generations and First Contact) and, since I believe you've mentioned enjoying other Trek, that you might enjoy on that basis as a TV movie of sorts, not as an enticement to continue watching the series.
  4. Jedimarine Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2001
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    WOTW is interesting.

    In one light, it appears to be a desperate attempt to reinvigorate the series. The addition of a cast member from the previous series stinks of a blatant ratings grab for TNG fans (tangent: almost EXACTLY the same feeling when Tapping joined Atlantis).

    On the other hand, looking back on the series as a whole, there seemed to be a build toward this moment...at least since season 2, and certainly most of the important episodes of season 3. The unique factor, the flashpoint, is the only thing left to be decided, and the choice of a former franchise character, who then becomes a cast regular, was brilliant...except...for what I stated above.

    Though I came to appreciate Worf's inclusion in the show down the line...I did feel his role being larger then a cameo smacked of pandering...and in an indirect manner, it told fans of DS9 that they were neither numerous enough, nor vocal enough for TPTB's liking.

    I know part of the reason for the "feature film" style was almost like a second pilot to get stations on board for syndication rights...Star Trek was expensive compared to many cheap options stations were starting to get in the 90s...add in Paramount offering up Trek via it's own network...trying to cut out the local stations with one product while still offering an older one...they almost shot themselves in the foot.

    From here forward, DS9 becomes increasingly isolated, both on the dial, and in it's reason for being...was it the Star Trek banner carrier or an also ran? Was it a failed show limping into cancellation, or a feisty show that wouldn't go away?

    DS9 has more differing opinions about it, coloring the rainbow from disdain to religious zeal...and much of it is a tale of 2 halves...Pre-Worf era and Worf era (though personally I draw a line at "new Dax")

    But one thing is pretty clear...with the swirl of opinions saying positive, goes bad...starts and gets better...sucks and sucks more...most people agree...the first half of the series and second half are different.
  5. Koohii Jedi Grand Master

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    Worf's arrival also follows the B5 pattern of a warrior of alien tradition joining the cast. Markus of the Mimbari Anlashok(Rangers)/Worf of the Klingons.
  6. Jedimarine Force Ghost

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    LOL...And Teal'c (SG-1), And Ronin (Atlantis).

    apparently this is something of a staple now.
  7. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    Ha, I hadn't thought of that observation (I think I was distracted by 3 others from WOTW ;)). I'll add it to my list :D
  8. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    <img src="http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090214140144/memoryalpha/en/images/5/5a/Way_of_the_Warrior_promo_art.jpg" width="576" height="358">
    DS9 401/402: The Way of the Warrior
    -Premise: When a Klingon fleet under General Martok arrives at the station ostensibly to protect the Alpha Quadrant from the Dominion, Sisko recruits Lt. Commander Worf to discover the Klingons' true intentions. (Season Premiere)

    -T2Q Comments: Did not realize this was a two-parter/feature-length episode going into it- a pleasant surprise. I guess it kinda makes this a 2nd pilot in a way. New theme, new cast, new-looking Captain, new momentum forward.

    This Changeling sweep drill is a neat follow-up to the events of The Adversary. Quark looks different here- I think they did something with his nose or eyebrow region differently. Sherri Palmer returns- don't trust her Sisko- even if she doesn't turn out to be a Changeling, she's worse!

    Wooooooooahhhh! Even though we had that Romulan/Cardassian fleet shot last seaosn, this reveal of the Klingon fleet still has a big impact.

    New theme song rendition...I like the war drums addition to the start, but I'm not as sold on the synth-sounding beat underneath the rest...combined with the quicker horns, it actually makes the real instruments sound a little faker...as if it were a high quality MIDI file. Not terrible (certainly adds a B5 vibe to things), but I still liked the more majestic nature of the original.

    The addition of the ships coming and going are a nice improvement though (but one or two feel shoe-horned in), making DS9 feel like a busy place and not just a model alone by itself. The subtle improvement to the background starfield is also welcome. The Defiant's presence is also welcome. The "guys in spacesuits do repairs" thing adds a nice scale but one can't help but draw a comparison to B5's opening titles for it's first two seasons. Slightly different font and letter coloring too. A shame they spoil Dorn's addition to the cast here though.

    Garek! Huzzah!

    "I didn't know you spoke Klingon."
    "Oh, you';d be surprised at the things you learn from doing alterations."

    Klingons keep cloaking and decloaking to deter people from getting an accurate count of how many ships they have there, heh- that tactic never occurred to me before but that's a good one...at the very least it's almost the cloaking technology equivalent of flipping the bird... of prey (sorry, couldn't resist ;)).

    Even though it violates Bajoran space..what the Klingons are doing is pretty much what should probably start being done by everyone, really- at least in areas of high risk to filter out possible Changeling infiltrations.

    Nice touch that it's Miles that greets Worf. Also interesting that Worf is once again meeting a bald Captain.

    First reference to the loss of the Enterprise-D.

    I forget if I mentioned this awhile back or not, but I tried prune juice for the first time a few months ago- ack! that crap tastes like raisin juice. Now, I like raisins, don't get me wrong...but not in liquid form, yelch! [face_sick]

    Another nice background touch with Morn leaving his bar stool when the Klingon that harassed him arrives.

    Skeletor returns! [face_laugh] Callbacks to Dax's klingon history, as well as "Emperor Kahless". Dukat's makeup looks different here too- i wonder went on between seasons?

    Disbanding of the Federation/Klingon treaty as Gowron and his baby blues returns.

    "There was nothing we could not do."
    "Except keep the holodecks working right."
    [face_laugh] [face_laugh] [face_laugh]

    "I know how much you miss the Enterprise- but I'm sure they'll be building a new one soon."
    "It will not be the same. The Enterprise I knew is gone. Those were good years."

    Lyta! Wonder if she's the same character who got tossed around on the Enterprise, or if she's here to help steal the Defiant.. ;)

    "never been on a Federation ship with a cloaking device" well, technically you had the Pegasus phase cloak that one time on the Enterprise...

    Arm quantum torpedos..is this the first time they've been ment
  9. RK_Striker_JK_5 Force Ghost

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    I always compared those little guys to the dock workers from Wrath of Khan. myself. ;)
  10. Jedi Ben Chosen One

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    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    I loved the amount of arse that got kicked in WOTW, when the station goes to full fire - ye gods, you thought the Feds were woussies? Not anymore. Combine this with some very effective model work and Sisko being a hard bastard when the Klingons invade the station...
  11. TIEPilot051999 Force Ghost

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    It's even more awesome when you realize that it was written and filmed as filler, since the main episode was under running.
  12. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    Yeah- apparently there was some debate about that scene's portrayal, as the director wanted to play it for laughs while the actors wanted to play the obvious subtext. Behr eventually decided it for the subtext as it was never meant to be a joke.
  13. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    [image=http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050825182916/memoryalpha/en/images/a/af/Old_Jake_Sisko.jpg] [image=http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20071126194828/memoryalpha/en/images/5/5a/Sisko_in_temporal_displacement.jpg] [image=http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060710025525/memoryalpha/en/images/d/d8/Jadzia_dax_future_the_visitor.jpg]
    DS9 403: The Visitor
    -Premise: After a freak accident in the engine room of the Defiant apparently claims the life of Benjamin Sisko, Jake lives out his life in an endless quest to locate his father.

    -T2Q Comments: Tony Todd as Old Man Jake Sisko. Another core ejection system is offline- holy crap, that's the second worst piece of technology in the future after the holodeck. The "I'm dying" cliffhanger resolution is such a cheap trick! (at least at first).

    A nice coincidence that DS9 runs an episode about a (presumably) alternate timeline near to one on Voyager- I like that thematic synchronicity. However, one minor problem about showing as one possible future is that it does take away from some storylines like Nog getting into Starfleet, since we're sort of spoiled the impact of seeing him in the uniform for the first time (not to mention, knowing the uniforms to come, it's technically the wrong uniform ;)).

    Also I know it's the actor's height, but having a shorter man play a teenage alien works better than trying to have him pass as an adult- what lets him pass as a younger Ferengi doesn't translate with just the makeup, since there's no indication to suggest Nog is small for a Ferengi.

    In the scene where Sisko appears to adult Jake, Todd does a great job of incorporating some of Jake's acting ticks, it's actually kinda eerie. Future uniforms reused from All Good Things but kinda feel like TOS uniforms more than they did there.

    The old age makeup on Dax is actually quite good. Getting pulled into subspace looks a lot like a place Q hangs out in on occasion when offering It's a Wonderful Life journeys.

    "Thank you for everything"... including that last bit that you mentioned which involves erasing my existence from the timeline and causing a major war that is otherwise seemingly averted. She ain't much of a survivalist, folks.

    An interesting what if scenario, though it kinda makes Jake a little pathetic (though that could be the result of the recurring nature of the trauma- he seems to do ok after he gets past it initially). But, still, an excellent episode. Definitely Essential.

    Trivia: A 1996 issue of TV Guide, this episode was voted the best Star Trek episode ever. Brooks, Lofton, Behr and director David Livingston also rank this among their favorite episodes.

    This was originally going to be directed by Rene but a last minute switch the production schedule to accommodate Colm's film schedule swapped the episodes that Rene and Livingston worked on.

    The design of Jake's house is based on the Haunted Mansion in Disneyland. The concept of a fan visiting a reclusive writer who hasn't published in years is based on a 1980 interview with JF Salinger to a high school student tat showed up at his door. In the alternate timeline of this episode, the Dominion War did not happen (as of the 2390s).

    The shot of Jake and Kira in the upper pylon apparently predicts the final shot of the series (erg, minor spoilrs). Kira debuts a new uniform in this episode, though one that wasn't popular with the fans, who feared they were trying to turn Kira into a Baywatch Babe. This episode was nominated for a Huge Award for Best Dramatic Presentation, but lost to Babylon 5.



    [image=http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050902084803/memoryalpha/en/images/8/8b/Goranagar.jpg]
    DS9 404: Hippocratic Oath
    -Premise: Bashir tries to help members of a Jem'Hadar unit free themselves of their addiction to the drug the Founders use to control them.

    -T2Q Comments: Kinda strange for them to be doing a survey aboard a runabout in the Gamma Quadrant- you'd think they'd be using the Defiant's cloak for any operations since the Jem'Hadar don't seem to discrimin
  14. Jedimarine Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2001
    star 5
    "The Visitor" is like DS9's "Inner Light"(TNG) to me. I understand people go on and on about them, particularly the actors and crew people...but I just don't care for them.

    "Hippocratic Oath", on the other hand, is a great episode...a masterful step toward humanizing a beastly foe, and yet they pull it back just before they do the old Trek thing of everyone smiling like idiots over blue koolaid and leaving writers to patch together knockoff variations on new antagonists.

    Nope...this is another episode where at the end, they bite their thumb at the Trek conventions.
  15. Koohii Jedi Grand Master

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    Space station starts run by LtCommander, then by a captain (Commander Sinclair&Captain Sherridan/ whatsisname promoted)
  16. MistrX Force Ghost

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    Count me in as one who never really loved "The Visitor" as much as some did. It does indeed have some great performances, but I think it gets a bit too heavy handed. I usually love the character-driven episodes, but I think that one dialed the melodrama just a little too much.

    That said, I do love much of Season 4. "The Way of the Warrior" was an excellent way to start things off. I still remember the promo that previewed the "return" of the Klingons to villainy and Worf's arrival. Plus, that battle really brought the scale for space combat on Trek to a new level, building on the taste we got back in the "The Die is Cast". Behr might have regretted some of it, but I think it made a good, long scale arc for seasons 4-7 and made the Dominion buildup all the richer.

    "Hippocratic Oath" was rather enjoyable too, due to the nuanced look at the Jem'Hadar. Every time they do that ("To the Death", "By Inferno's Light", "Rocks and Shoals") I think they do it well and they tend to be among my favorite episodes. Plus, I appreciate that the episode ends with DS9's hetero-lifemates not at all happy with one another, something that would never have happened under Gene.
  17. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    Star Trek Online's Winning Entry For the Enterprise-F

    I'll reserve judgement until a better rendering is made, but while I don't dislike it, I'm not blown away either- it seems to reverse the trend of the ships getting sleeker/fatter (with the Enterprise-J being the end of that evolution) but popping the neck up and bringing the front belly down again.
  18. Koohii Jedi Grand Master

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    Well, it's... Different...

    I still think they should have used the -C as the design for the NextGen TV show. Much, much better looking.
  19. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    [image=http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050504201120/memoryalpha/en/images/5/5c/Razka_Karn.jpg] [image=http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060916213157/memoryalpha/en/images/6/6b/Sisko_overwhelmed_indiscretion.jpg]
    [image=http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050921051058/memoryalpha/en/images/6/60/Kira_and_Dukat_look_for_wreckage.jpg] [image=http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060916214609/memoryalpha/en/images/b/b9/Dukat_pledge_bracelet_indiscretion.jpg] [image=http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060916220941/memoryalpha/en/images/2/2d/Ziyal_rather_die_indiscretion.jpg]
    DS9 405: Indescretion
    -Premise: Kira and Dukat search for the six-year-old crash site of a Cardassian freighter that was carrying Bajoran prisoners.

    -T2Q Comments: "She's serious." Seems like they're setting up a Dukat/Kira buddy ep, should be amusing despite the implausibility of Dukat being sent. I know we're already about halfway through the episode, but I can't help but feel they find the ship too early- like the search should have lasted longer. Seems to be a lot of effort to "humanize" Dukat here- but I don't mind, as that's something the actor has often managed to achieve in the past without a plot to fully support it.

    The sunset shot is rather lovely. The whole gag over Dukat's injured butt is...funny, yes, but it kinda borders slapstick towards the end and kinda takes me out of the character's reality.

    Breen... ya tay, ya tay, yo-toe.
    [image=http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/en/images/8/83/Breen2372.jpg] [image=http://trevmurphy.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/ebay_aceo_boushh.jpg]

    Dukat's dilemma seems to be resolved too easily. Rhe Sisko subplot is ok, and not as distracting or cheesy as other relationship subplots tend to be. Seems to be relatively important in the development of Kira/Dukat's interactions as well as Dukat, so we'll go with Definitely Essential.

    Trivia: The series of changes on Cardassia were modelled after the fall of Communism in the Soviet Union. First appearance of the Breen after numerous references on TNG. Their voices were inspired by guitar feedback on the Lou Reed album Metal Machine Music. Directed by Levar Burton .


    [image=http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050409185851/memoryalpha/en/images/e/e8/Two_trill.jpg] [image=http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050921042314/memoryalpha/en/images/7/75/Lenara_Kahn_and_Jadzia_Dax_kiss.jpg]
    DS9 406: Rejoined
    -Premise: Dax is reunited with the Kahn symbiont, a wife of one of her previous hosts, and must decide whether or not to ignore Trill taboo and continue their relationship.

    -T2Q Comments: Never let your past lives interfere with your job? Wouldn't that whole Klingon revenge assassination thing qualify? This whole anti-reassociation rule seems odd when we've seen Dax meet up with, work with or fight alongside people from past lives such as Sisko or the Klingons.

    Be nice if they would have maybe namedropped a Voyager connection to the development of this artifical wormhole...but I guess Voyager hasn't made contact yet to let them know where they are so that wouldn't make sense at this point.

    "What do Klingons dream about?"
    "Things that would send cold chills down your spine, and wake you in the middle of the night. No, it is better that you do not know. Excuse me."
    "I can never tell when he's joking."

    A little creepy with the dude watching them right over their shoulder, ha. A significant kiss for the time.

    Wormhole plotline feels like a distraction from the main story- one of those obligatory "we need to make the episode more sci-fi-y" subplots.

    The thing with making the story be (at least partially) a parable/analogy to homosexuality is the behavior of the characters who have to be against reassociation come across as not just homophobic but an odd investigative homophobia (what with the "he saw you holding hands" "how long were you in her quarters?" type questions and even the "what about the consequences?" comments from Sisko) that makes the episode not age well, even if the kiss itself is sign
  20. Jedimarine Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2001
    star 5
    Indiscretion was serviceable...I didn't think it was quite the stretch you did, 2nd.

    Rejoined is pandering to popular social buzz of the worst kind...they weren't breaking down barriers, they were knee jerk responding to social commentary and didn't want to seem left behind the curve. Doesn't help the episode SUCKS...so the focus was entirely on this kiss...which was much ado about nothing even then...they can prop up the few "fundies" who plugged their ears and put their heads in the sand, but most people took no notice of this.

    move along.
  21. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    Maybe I came across too harsh in the episode- but it's just that that slapstick element of the humor in the cave scene broke the reality of the character as it made him do stuff I don't think the makeup and costume were ever meant to do.

    Unlike the rest of the series, suddenly it's visibly a guy in a costume and makeup, not Dukat.

    So, minus that and the quick resolution to Dukat's moral dilemma (or, I guess, just all the scenes in caves ;)) it's a pretty decent episode.
  22. Koohii Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2003
    star 5
    I remember all that hype over the kiss scene. and it was just about the same time that B5 implied rather than showing.
    Now, IMNSHO, the implication worked far more effectively that the display ever could.
    Also B5 actors were way better than anything I ever saw on DS9.
    Also, JMS had male couples and female couples holding hands and such in the background since early on in series, with the implication that by the 22nd century, humanity and other races would be past the puritanical bigotry/idiocy. Sadly, I think in this instance he was overly optimistic.

    On another note, I saw Avery Brooks in a movie called American History X. (Not a family friendly Flick!!!). He displayed far more presence and character in that movie than anything I saw in any of the first 3 seasons of DS9. It was rather, interesting to watch. AHX, by the way, seemed like a remake of a german movie I saw about 4 years ago.
  23. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    The interesting thing about the B5 scenario was that it only ended up being implied because of Andrea Thompson's departure from the show. It was originally supposed to be a bigger story arc (IIRC, there was an anecdote in the script books about how JMS proposed the subplot to the actresses, being shy about the subject. They in turn started kissing each other passionately, knowing it would turn JMS bright red.).
  24. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    [image=http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050504205535/memoryalpha/en/images/7/79/Defiant_Starship_Down.jpg] [image=http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050921050536/memoryalpha/en/images/f/f4/Defiant_dodges_a_missile.jpg] [image=http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050504204228/memoryalpha/en/images/5/52/Worf_Starship_Down.jpg]
    [image=http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050504203630/memoryalpha/en/images/0/07/Bashir_and_Jadzia_Starship_Down.jpg] [image=http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20061004213324/memoryalpha/en/images/1/11/Hanok.jpg] [image=http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050504202946/memoryalpha/en/images/c/ce/Quark_and_Hanok_Starship_Down.jpg]
    DS9 407: Starship Down
    -Premise: Sisko defends a Karemma ship when it is attacked by the Jem'Hadar. Meanwhile, Quark and the Karemma trade minister argue about the value of dishonesty in trading.

    -T2Q Comments: Followup on Ferengi trade in Gamma Quadrant. Looks like they're going for a submarine-type story here.

    "If we don't seal that deck off now we'll lose the ship" well good thing you can do that and still use transporters to get people out of there. Now I'm trying to remember- is this guy played by Rene or Cromwell? (it's Cromwell). Their little debate over commerce philosophies is kinda neat actually, since it's playing off Quark's passion with it's antithesis. Juluan/Dax.

    Engineer #1: "We'll worry about the mess tommorow."
    Engineer #2: "That's easy to say, it's your day off"
    O'Brien: "Don't count on it."

    I do enjoy the image of Kira and Sisko wearing baseball caps, ha. Submarine stories are something Trek tends to do well- I don't think you absolutely need to see this one but I think it's very good nonetheless so I'll upgrade it to Definitely Essential- all the various mini subplots work well here, from Worf's command style to Julian/Dax, etc.

    Trivia: Inspired by submarine thrillers, particularly Das Boot. The original concept for this episode was more inspired by The Poseidon Adventure and had the Defiant sinking into the sea of an alien planet with the crew trying to escape before the ship is crushed under water. Odo would dive into the water and seep into the ship through damaged hull areas to help. This idea was abandoned for budgetary reasons. The switch from water to gas was not seen as fully successful by the production staff, as scenes like shuttinga hatch against a rush of water became less effective when replaced with gas.

    In the TNG episode Disaster, which has some similarities to the A plot of this episode, Riker says everyone on the bridge is likely dead, but Miles is among few survivors on the bridge. In this episode, it's Miles who says the bridge crew is likely dead. Last credited appearance by Cromwell on a Trek show (his next appearance would be in First Contact, and his cameos on Enterprise were uncredited).



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    DS9 408: Little Green Men
    -Premise: A malfunction on Quark's new ship causes Quark, Rom, and Nog to crash in the year 1947 in Roswell, New Mexico.

    -T2Q Comments: Nog on his way to Starfleet, Quark has his own ship now (at least, for now). Connection to the Sisko/Bell Riots. Rom spouting off a whole buncha technobabble is pretty funny, though not in a bad way.

    The reference to the Bell Riots kinda tipped off the nature of the episode, but, still, timetravel episode- hurray!

    So is this episode where Fry ends up having sex with his Grandma? ;)

    Working in the "exploring new worlds and new civilizations" line is a bit much (worse than "on some kind of Star Trek", which I've always kinda liked) but I can't blame them, really.

    (regarding tobacco)
    "If they'll buy poison, they'll buy anything. I think I'm gonna like it here."

    I kinda want to see the alternate universe where Quark's plan worked.

    I know it's not an exact thing but I get the impressio
  25. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    I've always thought that DS9 had the best premise in the TREK franchise, even if it smacked of a rip off from BABYLON 5. But due to some occasional shaky writing, it failed to elevate above TNG and VOY.