Discussion in 'Community' started by Darth_Duck, Jan 4, 2006.
"I'm Mott...I'm the Barber!"
One of my favorite episodes, hands down.
Ah yes, the Star Trek version of Die Hard. It was a good episode though.
I agree, from what I recall at least. That's been one of te episodes I've been most looking forward to seeing again in this project as I remember digging it alot when it first aired. Of fcourse it's not till the last season or so.
Yes, B5 was plotted out as an arc. A series of arcs, actually. However, changes were made all along the way to adapt and expand. Was JMS planning on ditching the main actor after the first season? No. However, doing so allowed him to fix another problem. Was he planning on the interruption? No. But since the corporate suits wouldn't get back to him, seasons 4 & 5 were condenced into a single season. This improved the plot and pacing a great deal, but lead to the incrediblly feable season 5, because all of his story ideas were used up, and everything had to be written on short notice, and was written very, very badly.
Even worse were the follow-up series, which just proved that JMS needs time (like about 10 years) for prep-work.
I remember several times when the DS9 episode being shown was an exact paralle to the B5 episode. (the 2-women relationship/kissing comes to mind).
that said, because so many people have been saying that DS9 was so great, I've been trying to watch it. At what point does it actually become good? I've struggled through the first 2 disks of season 1. A friend suggested I jump to the last 3 disks of season 2. So far, I'm very far impressed, thinking of just dropping it as a waste of time, but open to suggestions.
Hate to say it, but at least Voyager kept my interest for the first 3 seasons before getting boring. DS9 has yet to really start.
The first two seasons are mostly TNG-style episodes - almost completely self-contained. But there are several characters and minor plotlines introduced early on that are relevant to the rest of the show.
It wasn't that the suits wouldn't get back to him- they flat out told him "Wrap it up- the PTEN network is disbanding.". It wasn't until TNT played around with the TV movies that they finally gave the go-ahead for picking up Season 5. Season 5's failings come only in it's first half though, where he had to stretch the discarded C-Plot form Season 4 about the telepaths into an A-plot. The second half with Londo was more or less as it was intended, which is why it shines so much better than the first half.
Additionally, JMS kept his outline notes on notecards in a stack on his desk (and eventually in a binder). When Season 5 got the go ahead, he was at a convention in the UK and had intended to use his free time there to get started on Season 5. However, he got distracted by the Claudia fiasco and, then found that the hotel he was at had moved his stuff to a different room partway through his stay, and had thrown out the notecards in the process. Despite dumpster diving, JMS was unable to recover them, and had even less to go on when writing Season 5.
Crusade was mucked up by TNT Atlanta and never had a chance to show it's true nature. It's like B5 if B5 never got to introduce the Shadows...and was shown out of order...with episodes directly interred with by the network...then intentionally killed in a way that no other channel could pick it up and make TNT look made for dropping a show made successful elsewhere. It's a miracle Crusade ended up (when viewed in a proper order) as good as it did, given the circumstances.
Seems there are lots of conflicting stories about what and why things went bad after the end of season 4. Big problem for me with Crusade is that it wanted to be Space Battleship Yamato/StarBlazers, only cooler, but wasn't.
going back to DS9, I just saw an episode with 3 klingons and Dax going out for revenge. Basically, it was "At Swords Point" with Dax as Maureen O'Hara. Very silly episode. A klingon uses his batleth as a garotte, then jerks it to the side in a move clearly designed to slit the throat, and there's no blood. C'mon! Warf got stabbed in the back in a season 1 or 2 episode of TNG, and there was a big red blood geyser! (Ok, at least he bled). People charging into battle with swords, and no blood?
And what's with Dax having to give all the specifications for a Batleth to the computer? Doesn't she have one personalized already? If not, can't she just say "Configuration ______"?
Still waiting for the show to get "good"
Even if she had a personalized bat'leth it wouldn't be registered in the program that Koloth was using, Quark's holodecks aren't like the Enterprise's all the programs aren't saved in a central database but stored in separate in data vials. And as for the standard configuration, I suppose an average bat'leth would be too big for Dax.
"A Warrior's Configuration" was the line right after her measurement-o-babble.
Still, why no blood?
It's as rediculous as the highlander cartoon, where the 50 cal machine gun is so very, very bad, but the villains regularly use flame-throwers and swords. Like burning flesh and sliced arteries are so much better than gunshot wounds...
What it comes down to is whether the violence can be expressed artistically or it's just gratuitous...and it also has to do with the show.
For that DS9 episode...having about a solid decade of regular Star Trek precedent for the censor review panel to examine (we won't count TOS...that was a different time)...there is an expected level of content...and not only that, but the creators know how extreme they can take it or not.
no gore combat, with few exceptions, is common for the franchise...and the exceptions are always dramatic story telling points.
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DS9 103: Past Prologue
-Premise: A Bajoran terrorist tests Kira's loyalties to the Federation when he attempts to rid Bajor of the Federation for good.
-T2Q Comments: Garek is rather unsettling, and Bashir's jumpiness is understandable but kinda annoying. First appearance of the wormhole in opening credits.
Nightwatch Guy as Cardassian. Kinda funny how the Bajoran clothes and uniforms evoke the TOS uniforms to a degree.
Klingon sisters return- I find it almost off balance to find them here, halfway through an episode that's not Klingon-centric, with little fanfare at that. "I'm the one giving you the choice." Odo doesn't really maintain any mass ratios in his shape shifting, does he?
The jazz hands on "haggle" cracks me up- I love this Garek fellow- I hope he's recurring. I like the detail that they explain Odo's appearance by him having trouble replicating humanoid noses. This whole scene with Odo and Kira is great too.
Dead quiet...except for all the computer noise left in the audio track.
For the introduction of Garek (he's recurring! hurrah!) and the minor progression of the Duras sisters and Klingon plotline, I'll say this one is Definitely Essential.
Trivia: This is the first episode ever of Star Trek to not have a ship named Enterprise in it.
DS9 104: A Man Alone
-Premise: After a man is murdered behind locked doors, investigation reveals that the only person who could have committed the crime is Odo, station Chief of Security.
-T2Q Comments: Bashir slightly annoys me for the second episode intro in a row. I wonder how many episodes it'll take for me to start fast forwarding through the opening titles, as I do love this theme, very serene.
Keiko's first appearance on the show- nice that they're exploring the difficulties in assignment transition.
This one scene about halfway through pretty much telegraphs the real killer, I think- but also does an excellent job of characterizing Quark in regards to Odo...and maybe I spoke too soon, it may have given us more options as to who the killer is than I originally surmissed.
"Killing your own clone is still murder." Not sure if that's corny or badass, but I like it.
This seems somewhat relevant viewing in terms of seeing aspects of the station still being established (which makes sense, given that this was the first regular episode shot, even if second aired) and introducing some character relationships (Jake and the Ferengi kid..which after I tpe that sounds like a western TV show), as well as some other minor themes that would be explored down the road.
I actually remember facets of this episode too, and still wouldn't mind rewatching it down the road. But, it could still be skipped with little lost so I'm hesitant to say it's Definitely Essential, so I'll go and say "Potentially Essential, But Not Necessarily Good", even if the latter part of that description doesn't apply in this case.
Trivia: when Odo is reviewing the murder victim's schedule, one of the entries states he departed from Alderaan Spaceport.
DS9 105: Babel
-Premise: A virus infects the station's residents, making everyone unable to speak coherently.
-T2Q Comments: I like the idea of all the repairs needed to get things running piling up on Miles. You know, the design flourishes above and under catwalks on this station, at least the underside ones, that mimic the docking pylons of the station design, would seem to be a major hazard for people bumping their heads into them.
"Rom's an idiot- he couldn't fix a straw if it was bent."
Not sure why they're making
Those early episodes are kinda not-good, but not as much as early TNG ones. I remember Babel and Miles' frustration. As corny as the concept was, that little subplot made it watch-worthy.
DS9 is general was great except for a couple of things I can't really put my finger on. Kira...just couldn't stand her. I think it was the acting combined with the background. She was always pissy, supposedly because of of the occupation. And at first she hated the Federation "re-occupation" which came across sometimes, but other times she was buddy-buddy with everyone. Also, she was ugly.
Also, the whole Bajoran religious subplot. I found it boring, especially during the war arc. I was always waiting for them to wake up and say "hey...our gods are just super aliens. There's like 10000 of those in the galaxy. What's that do to our history and religion?" Never happened.
Censorship, don't forget that DS9 was aired at a timeslot in which children could be watching. There is a season 4 episode in where they had to cut down on the fight scenes due to censorship.
I know it's stupid and annoying, but that's how TV works.
Indeed, the early episodes of DS9 are also a bit too TNGish, for example the Babel episode could have also worked on TNG, with only minor changes.
Yeah...they played it safe early on, adopting the overarching pieces through time while keeping it very episodic...they weren't ready to break from the classic Trek formula just yet.
The Klingon inclusion in a non Klingon plot is EXACTLY what is called for to distinguish the "station" setting from Trek of the past...it's an essential story telling piece...now did it HAVE to be recurring TNG characters? Probably not...but "it's a small quadrant" is part of the reason for the wormhole anyway...and then the Delta quadrant for Voyager.
While the stories might be a little rough, and the characters not entirely in stride just yet, you can already get a feeling that the aesthetic sense of the setting is already there...this was something that plagued TNG until at least season 3 or 4...with the exception of a uniform change, and the addition of the defiant, things are pretty much the way they will be throughout the series.
Well...and the Sisko "hair shift" from head to chin.
I only watched Past Prologue, an episode centered around Odo havent catched my intrest.
This is the wrongest thing I've ever seen in a long history of wrongness online.
I agree with you about the Bajorans and their religion, though. It's very anti-Trek that they never move past that. But then again a lot of DS9 is 'anti-Trek' (**cough*DominionWar*cough**).
One of my favorite things about DS9 is the way it takes sides without taking sides. I mean, it allows you to have a fun bad guys vs. good guys war, yet at the same time things aren't so clean-cut that it's two-dimensional. We want the bad guys to fail, yet at the same time we completely understand and perhaps even sympathize with why they're doing what they're doing.
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DS9 106: Captive Pursuit
-Premise: O'Brien helps an alien from the Gamma Quadrant as hunters descend on the station searching for their humanoid prey.
-T2Q Comments: I think this chick hopped over from Farscape.. "I'm not what a lot of people think." Sorry, my mistake, miss.
With Tosk's chameleon/cloak abilities, I gotta wonder if the ability is related or sourced from Tosk's race by Future Guy and given to the Suliban.
Speaking of Farscape- Quark is kicking Zhaan out of his casino. Love the Odo scene and you know what just hit me? Rene Auberjonois as Odo is very much reminiscent of Liam Neeson...I really want to see them in a movie together now.
These Reverse-Cylon lookin dudes...it's like they spent their costuming and makeup budget on the helmet and just gave up on the rest...so in 30 years we've one from TOS villains with cheap-looking sashes across their chests...to DS9 (potential) villains with cheap-looking sashes featuring blinking lights across their chest. Gotta wonder why they could punch Odo without him doing his T-1000 trick. Their attack somewhat reminds me of the Atlantis anti-gard troopers in Season 5 of SGA.
Quark certainly didn't take long in this series to be interesting and amusing. So the hunters just let the prey fly right over them without even a shot?
I really liked this episode...I'd like to see the Tosk again, there seems like there could be a Gladiator/war smuggler type angle that could be well utilzied, maybe even have the Klingons, being so honor-centric, interact with them and guide them to an honorable freedom.
Notable for featuring the first Gamma Quadrant contacts- there's apparently also a direct link between the cloaking effect of Tosk and the later cloaking of the Jem'Hadar (it being said the same people bred both the Tosks and Jem'Hadar). Also establishing Odo not using phasers/weapons.
I'm torn about how to classify this one- the Tosk sadly do not show up again, yet this episode establishes a few important smaller moments, and indirectly foreshadows coming enemy abilities, and I also like the episode quite a bit.
I guess I'll go with Good Episode, But Not Necessarily Essential- though I'd still likely include it in a reccomended episode viewing list.
Up next: DS9 107: Q-Less
Why do we need these episodes analysed in the TNG thread too?
I'm posting the DS9 episodes in this thread, and the TNG episodes in the TNG thread.
Ah, yes- I do cross-post these episode reviews in both the Amp and SFAF forums. Different people post in the two forums, which provides the most variety in discussion- not too many users post in both.
There's just the one thread in Amp, though- whereas SFAF as individual threads for each series, so I break them up accordingly, as I have since I started this project with TOS.
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DS9 107: Q-Less
-Premise: Archaeologist Vash arrives from the Gamma Quadrant as Q plagues the station and an unknown force threatens to destroy it.
-T2Q Comments: Bashir hitting on this unibrow chick, yeesh...
I'm wondering if Miles ever actually saw Vash in the last episode she appeared in?
Q mentioning the Delta quadrant left to explore- wonder if Voyager was in the works at this point?.
"What did they call you? The God of Lies?", "...they meant it affectionately."
"22 percent and don't stop!"
As much as I'm enjoying it, I think this is the point where they really start to play Q for comedic relief a bit too much.
...Ok, so I'm at the "fisticuffs" scene, and I retract the "I think" portion of my previous statement. Still
"Picard and his lackies would have solved this technobabble hours ago!"
If the episode hadn't made the source of the drains and gravitons so obvious as early as it did, it might have been much-improved, but, still- it's quite enjoyable and the conclusion of the Vash episodes, as well as Q's only appearance on DS9 (even if his pupose here is a bit out of character compared to his other appearaces). Definitely Essential.
Trivia: the third Ren & Stimpy reference here with Hoek IV.
DS9 108: Dax
-Premise: New evidence reopens a thirty-year-old murder case, and Dax's previous host Curzon is now the prime suspect.
-T2Q Comments: You know, there's an awful lot of metal grating walls for people to watch others through in shadowy corridors and coves on this station. Now if only Brashir had enough smarts to take 2 seconds to call for security before yelling out in attention of himself and joining the fray.
holy crap, is that President Logan as bad guy numero uno? Tight little SR-71 looking ship.
"what's the matter with you?" I'm guessing she's annoyed that you'll only talk to her through her bookcase.
I think this is the first scene where I've really liked Kira- "but also...ANNOYS us."
The Trill rep in the hearing is a bit underwhelming in performance. Somthing I'm just realizing- this is another rare Trek Trial episode that isn't noticably awful at all. Mama Logan is played by Eloise Hawkings/Cindel's Mother (hmm, she plays the mother of a lot of characters.. ).
Good Episode, But Not Necessarily Essential. Still, I'd watch it again.
Trivia: The stardate of this episode is inconsistent with the rest of the season, placing the episode after most of Season 1. This was the only DS9 credit and last Trek script written by DC Fontana, who wrote several TOS (half of them good, half of them awful) and TNG Season 1 (mostly just awful) episodes.
Up next: DS9 109: The Passenger, DS9 110: Move Along Home & DS9 111: The Nagus.
I only watched the Q one.
I turned it off after the second commercial break in the Trial episode. Jumped to Disk6 of Season 2 because that's where a friend told me the story started to get good.
I'm still waiting to be convinced.
Reports I heard was that D.C. Fontana hated the rules imposed on writers for Next Gen, and didn't want to work with them at all.
Don't know if that's true or not.