Amph "You are of Bajor" A 'Trek' to 'Deep Space Nine'

Just finished disk 3 of season 3.
"Defiant" was a medium episode--which is to say it was at least watchable because Johnathan Frakes was the focus, and not the main cast.
"Fascination" was so awful I started skipping ahead to see if they ever got to making some kind of point.
I turned off "Past Tense" after the second commercial break.
Does this show become watchable? Seriously? When? What episode #? I'm tempted to just give up and drop if from my netflix queue entirely and give Voyager another chance.

 

Well, you're coming up on "Improbable Cause" and "The Die is Cast"...one of my favorite 2 parters.

Don't know if you got to "Heart of Stone", but it's a critical character piece for Odo.

Season 4, of course, introduces Worf to the main cast...and the focus becomes more on the war, and far more serialized and less episodic...as well as darker in tone.

Honestly though...if you don't like the characters yet, you probably won't...unless a bald Sisko appeals to you.

The early years overall aren't great...but they do endear you to the cast in the later end.

 

Cast & characters: most of them are mediocre actors who will probablly never be in anything else in a major role for the rest of their careers. And the characters just are not interesting.
Sisko: Sounds like a wet blanket when trying to be reasonable or asking for something--like a dog begging for scraps. Whiney Harry Belafonte. Then he switches to bass when trying to be threatening.
Kiera: "I'm a tough-ass bitch. I'm bossy. I'm so hollywood jew that my communicator should be a star of david." Her "softer side" is just painful.
Odo: I'm grumpy. Seriously, probablly the most talented actor, but stuck with a character who doesn't really appeal.
Quark: OK actor, but meh character. "I'm a devious schemer. See me try to get away with something underhanded? Wow, it's so obvious, and yet the head of security does nothing to stop it."
Jake: I'm a kid. I'm a teenager. See my angsty stage.
O'Brian: Remember me from the later seasons of Next Generation? I knew I had no career, so I strapped myself to the new show for continuity.
Dax: I'm a woman who used to be a man. See my spots? I get to spout technobabble more than anyone else. Who am I? I'm a blue-shirt!
Dr Julian: well, I managed to get into a couple of movies after this show, but don't look for any talent in this show. I'm the whiney fussy-boy doctor. I... I complain a lot and look like a dweeb too dorky to get into a UFO convention.
With a winning cast of characters like that, it's a wonder this show ever survived. Well, maybe not. It's not like they had people banging down their doors to hire them for anything else. And it's not like they were going to get anything else with this show on their resume. And hey, it was a steady paycheck.

 

Honestly...I see DS9 actors doing a lot more work then the TNG folks.

Now whether that's a sign of talent or the avoidance of type-casting...who can say.

The Stereotypes are built up so that they can be broke down later on.

You mentioned Rene Auberjonois talent is wasted...like I mentioned before, starting with "Heart of Stone", Odo's character gets launched into a brave new world...and now that I think about it, the 2 parter I mentioned is pretty good for him too.

I can't do anything about Dax...never cared for her or her eventual replacement. But her relationship with Worf at least adds a layer.

Bashir...Section 31...that's all I'll say.

Sisko...he's bland because he's the everyman...he's not a Kirk and he's not a Picard...he's a widowed father, a baseball fan, and a true believer...it's what he believes in that changes over time. "in the Pale Moonlight" is far and away his greatest episode.

Kira...has the most radical change of character of anyone on the cast by the end...but if you don't like edgy chicks, oh well.

O'Brien...HA! Colm Meaney is EVERYWHERE...A character actor among character actors...check out that IMDB page! He took a throw away extra role on TNG and turned it into a decade of work and lifetime of recognition...how many extras failed to resonate like that? The character...O'brien is like the predecessor for Chief Tyrol from BSG...everything that can happen to the man, happens to the man...he goes through EVERYTHING over the course of the show...wrongfully imprisoned, brainwashed, wife possessed, sees things that aren't there, faces suppressed demons...he even plays a Bond-like villain.

I guess we could go round and round like this...as much as you disparage the show, I'll find ways to support it...but I don't know what convinces you to keep watching the show unless you keep watching the show. All I can say is that, being a Trek-neutral person, and being not overly happy with the wasted youth on much on TNG, and the wasted elder adolescence on Voyager that I can't quite understand why I watched (wait, yes I can...7of9)...DS9 is the only series I can remember being satisfied by its run and it's characters...characters I found far more endearing and interesting than the puppets on the "other" space station show.

To each, their own...but if you are waiting for that singular "wow" moment, I don't have one to offer, nor is their a "realization" that the show was junk coming from the evaluation of the show (I believe I commented just recently how poor the first season really was).

Taken on the whole, DS9 is the best Star Trek has to offer...for me.

 

OK, see, that is why I keep trying to watch this show. People like you telling me it is comparable if not better than Babylon 5. And I keep waiting to see it. And it keeps not happening. Worse, the utterly lame episodes like "Fascination" happen, which not only do I skip, but make me want to dump the entire series as a lost cause.
Were you talking about the discussion of Odo's name? Or the horrible contrivance of his declared emotional attachment? Hopefully the name.

 

Are you a B5 fan? From way back?

Because that may, despite all efforts otherwise, mean you can't like this show.

I'm amused by how much 2nd likes to point out about B5 "similarities" in DS9...and he actually likes it.

Most dedicated B5 fans I know can't stand DS9...they see it as a Roddenberry-flavored also-ran...a vanilla Utopian rip off.

Having watched both initially, this is what I know...DS9 kept coming back in it's usual syndicated time...B5 was an adventure to find, if you could find it at all.

Does that have everything to do with "STAR TREK" in the title...probably...but it shouldn't negate what becomes a very modern style scifi drama by series end, with more weight to it then the rest of the franchise combined.

B5 had merit...but lost it's way by pressing on in manner that lost viewers along the way because they didn't accept that the show was in syndicated limbo. When an episode would come up, and I'd sit down to watch...not only did I miss all the major plot...but half the characters would be different too. It is a show that would have been best suited to the fledgling Scifi network, then rolling the dice on beating DS9 in syndication land.

I think B5 fans enjoy decrying DS9 far to much while making a martyr of JMS and his pet saga...which has become more of an adventure in "we'll get it out when we can scrap up the bucks" then anything else I can think of.

It is almost a complete contrast...I know one guy who owns both series...and even he professes his supreme love for B5 over DS9, and would gladly burn his DS9 seasons to have another B5 movie...it's that biased.

So...if you truly are a B5 devotee...then best to save yourself the grief, and me the carpal tunnel...and take it off the queue.

------

And yes, I was talking about Odo's affections...not "Shapeshifter in Love"...but moreover the brutal nightmare that that secret and then that revelation brings to him throughout the rest of the show...early on in the series, Odo is almost like the "supreme being" that the changelings try to portray they are...he's without vice or flaw...other then needing to sleep in a bucket, he's almost impervious to anything...what his feeling offer is a way to make him worth paying attention to...and moreover, it's something that doesn't vanish depending on the episode...it's a recurrent theme for the rest of the series! Is it angsty at times...sure! Gets down right goofy once things come together...but it unexpected compared to where Odo starts as a character...and makes the finale all the more surprising.

 

Well, I'd like to think I'm better than that.
I don't know where you were, but we had easy access to B5 when it first aired. Local station actually showed it right before DS9. The week with the 2 women kissing was the same week when Ivanova and the other Talia Winters had an implied relaship offscreen.

Yes, I did see B5 when it first aired. I've heard the stories, the conspiracy theories, etc, and even voiced them once in a while. But since I had seen B5 several times before and was looking for something new, SF, and Netflix makes it cheap and commercial free, I thought I'd give it a try.
So far, I'm getting more enjoyment out of the campy cheezeball Buck Rogers in the 25th Century--even the horrible 2nd season, than I am from the supposedly fantastic DS9.

Rather than flog a dead horse, however, I will remain quiet until I have tried to finish season 3. At that point, it will either have my interest, or be purged from my queue.

 

Well I am a fan of B5 and I also enjoy DS9. I saw most of B5 before most of DS9 so I can see the similarities. But rather than think "rip-off" I enjoy it because I get more of what I like.

In closing, this is a very good thread, keep it up.

Regards
Nordom

 

I loved B5 it was and will remain my fave scifi show ever, but I also liked DS9 it was and will most likely remain my favorite of all the Star Trek series because it didn't show me the bizarre alien species of the week or the constant running into whatever rip in the space-time continuum that the classic and TNG series had as a staple but rather focused on the characters that inhabit this federation, this frontier space station, this future roddenberry invented.

Sisko remains my favorite of all the Star Trek captains, because unlike Kirk, Picard, Janeway, and Archer. He seemed the most plausible and the most human-the most relatable.

And I've never liked Warf so much until he transferred to DS9.

But really the last three seasons was the best for the show IMO. It was gutsy of the creators of DS9 to create and show a long-termed conflict like the dominion war in Roddenberry's bubblegum utopia of Star Trek.

 

The problem that most people wind up having is that they try to compare DS9 to B5, and in doing so they focus only on the similarities between the two.

I own the complete run of both shows, and I quite enjoy them both, but for different reasons. Yes, they have certain similarities, but those are mostly dictated by the fact that they both have similar settings. On a space station, you really need to have the problems come to you (and if you want to go to the problems, you have to get a ship).

I love DS9 because of how well it delves into alien cultures. We get some very in-depth looks at the Klingons, the Ferengi, the Cardassians, and many other races. If anything, the series focuses on these other races more than humanity (albeit by looking at those races through the eyes of the human crew).

B5, on the other hand, is primarily a story of human struggles with some aliens on the side. In many ways, B5 explores human conflict and the human condition far better than DS9.

I enjoy them both, but that is because I don't compare them as much as I contrast them. I focus not on their similarities, but on their differences, and have come to love them for the things that make them unique from each other.

Kimball Kinnison

 

And on top of that, Star Trek has always been portrayed as a "window" on our world, expressed by other worlds...Klingons analogous to Soviets and so on.

In Star Trek, "alien" cultures tend to be extreme cases of human issues we have in the headlines.

 

Yeah. I don't really let it bother me because the stories themselves are compelling, but Trek, B5, and MOST sf shows (I can't think of any exceptions at the moment) tend to give their aliens very homogeneous cultures.

Granted, there are two good potential sf explanations for this:
1. As technology connects distant cultures, making them 'closer', there is usually a certain amount of homogenization. This would probably hold true for the cultures of a planet that has advanced to the point of a united planetary government/society.
2. The differences are 'there', but the subtleties just so alien that humans aren't able to perceive them.

Those excuses aside, I wouldn't mind seeing a Trek-esque series at some point attempt to develop an alien species with a diversity of cultures rivaling that of humanity.

 

Don't forget humans (especially in B5)

 

I decided that I wanted to watch Deep Space Nine again. It's been about a decade - maybe more - since I've seen it, and I decided to start with season 1. I think that I'm going to post episode-by-episode thoughts as well, but being at work at the moment I can't reference what I've seen, so I'll just post some general thoughts first based on my impressions.

Firstly, WOW, I'd forgotten how good the opening theme music was, and the opening credits. It's a lot different from the themes from Star Trek and Star Trek: The Next Generation. More sedate, with a very noble, regal sound to it. I love it.

Secondly, oddly enough, the initial parts of the first season remind me a little bit of Battlestar Galactica. Nothing works! Its refreshing, that things sometimes don't work and don't drive the plot specifically. Sometimes a malfunctioning console is just a malfunctionnig console, not a hargbinger of someone trying to take over the station or bizarre aliens trying to say hello.

Thirdly, the quality is a lot higher than I expected. With a few very strong exceptions, a lot of these episodes are pretty good. I had remembered the series as picking up in season three onwards, so that I'm already enjoying 75% of it is a good sign.

And fourthly, Dax is hot. And transgendered. I didn't really pick up on that, a transgendered character in Star Trek. Good work subtly breaking barriers.

 

I would argue that so far in my rewatch of DS9, the Bajorans are showing reasonable diversity. You have the ex-militants who are transitioning to civilian life, you have the militants who are now in uniform for the new Bajoran state, you have those who are still fighting, you do have a unified world religion - but there seem to be some factions there, you have tribal society in some places with their own treaties, you have what appears to be effectively a United Nations of Bajor referenced (with multiple factions), etc. If someone were to drop onto earth and visit just the northern hemisphere I think that a similar variety of cultures would show up. At the surface, there's not that much in the way of significant difference between say, Germans and Americans. Specifics are different, but the overall pattern of life is the same.

 

There are political factions within the culture, but the culture itself remains very monolithic.

And of course it's probably a necessity to avoid audience confusion. But I think it would be interesting at some point to see an alien species on something like Trek with a diversity comparable to a Kenyan in a dashiki next to a Bostonian in tuxedo.

 

So, have you ever actually been to Germany? Be careful about making generalization statements like that if you don't have the experience to back it up. Even within Germany, there are massive cultural differences. Something to do with the history... not just the east/west, but the divisions before that... All those kingdoms being brought together through diplomacy when warefare didn't work. You know, Graf Otto von Bismark...

 

No, I haven't been to Germany. However, how accurate/inaccurate are the following assumptions:

-German society is democratic, with a Parlement, constitution, courts, police and a legal system that follow due process.
-Germans generally have access to things like flush toilets, cars, vaccuum cleaners, public transit in cities.
-Germans are generally able to each a healthy number of calories a day, and have access to high quality medical care.
-Germans have a society that values - to one extent or another - things like art, music, theatre, movies, dance, etc.
-Germans generally build permenant buildings, designed to last decades or centuries.
-Germans are generally unlikely for the most part to machine-gun each other to death over centuries old racial feuds. Well, current Germans are.
-German Large corperations and small companies both exist, pay taxes, and establish stores that generally aren't looted by rebel bands.
-Germans like watching and playing sports, and build large stadiums to watch sports in.

I could be wrong. Perhaps the Germans are a nomadic hunter-gatherer people who live follow their current leader until someone is strong enough to defeat him or her in single combat and take his or her place?


Essentially, I'm saying that the general patterns of life in Germany aren't all that different from those in America and Canada. Yes, there's considerably different history. And there are differences in lifestyle. But overall, barring language difference, despite the occaisional strangeness, an American or Canadian living in Germany generally doesn't feel like they're living in alien territory. At least, those friends I have that have gone to Germany haven't felt that Germany was too different.

[image=http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3275/2743492581_09b62bb567_o.jpg] vs. [image=http://www.destination360.com/north-america/canada/images/s/canada-cn-tower.jpg]

On the other hand, the people living in say, rural Peru would have a dramatically different culture.

[image=http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/about/globalhealth/images/peru-village.jpg]

Or Somalia.

[image=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/Bardera_Aerial_view,_DD-SD-00-00987.jpg]

The details are different in Berlin and Toronto, but a person transplanted from one to the other would find the patterns of the day-to-day way of life extremely similar. One might have a better bus system, or more or less street ads, or better air quality, and language would of course differ. But day to day way of life? Not really much more different than between Toronto and New York, or between Vancouver and Sidney or Halifax and Pittsburg.

The western monoculture does have regional variations, sometimes strong ones, but I'm pretty strongly of the

 

OK, I've finished season 3. I've thought about it. One episode was actually good (they had to bring Jonathan Frakes in). There were about 4-6 episodes that didn't outright suck, and at least as many that I turned off within the first 15 minutes.
And this was supposed to be the first GOOD season?
I've not only finished with season 3, I'm finished with the show. It sucks. It is crap. Even seasons 3 and 4 of Enterprise were better than this.

Anyone who thinks this show is even remotely comparable to Babylon 5 (in quality, never mind story) is seriously out of his/her gourd. Might as well be comparing Gormenghast to Lord of the Rings. I might compare it with B5:Crusade...

Last night I watched the first disk of B5. While the first 2 episodes were a little slow, by the end of the 4th, I was hooked. again. I'll probablly watch the entire series again by the end of the month.

Anyway, I tried. I gave it a fair chance. I'm done.

 

Richard Beymer.

Being a gigantic "Ben Horne" and West Side Story fan, I remember tuning into these episodes just for him alone.