You, are the weakest link. A discussion on why our Villins fail.

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by NeoBaggins, Jan 21, 2004.

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  1. NeoBaggins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2003
    star 5
    In every battle of good and evil weather it be Batman and the Joker or Austen Powers and Dr.evil, the villin is always infected with an inner quality that will ultimately cause his defeat. Greed, temper, Overconfidence, poor planning, love. You name it. In the end, they will lose. Lets look at our prequel Villin cast and find out why they fail.

    Zam
    "It was just a job" Yeah. But trying to kill Jedi consitutes villainy. The most popular element of failiure is overconfidence but Zam's confidence surely took a blow when she witnessed the Jedis' persistance. I dont think overconfidence made her attempt to sneak up on Obiwan, she saw he was very hard to shake and deserves respect. Her failing was facing the fact that she couldnt escape and had to attempt to kill the Jedi no matter the outcome. A point of no return. I think she smerked before approaching him. Confidence or nervous reaction to the possible danger?

    Gunray
    He will fail because he is the silly Villin. Evil, but stupid. His lack of wit will be his undoing I think.

    Jango Fett
    His failing was purely technical. He was smart enough to fly away but couldnt. Firing at Mace was futile and while he wouldnt have defeated the powerful Jedi he could have escaped and lived.

    Ackelay
    Persistance. He keyed in on Obiwan and persued him until he was killed. He asked for it. I classify him as a villin because his species by nature is viscious.

    Geonossians
    Unskilled. Lack of knowledge. The lil ugly guys were slaughtered by Ani because of the sheer fact they knew not what they were up against. Although some ran at the site of the lightsaber.

    Darth Maul
    You would think he was overconfident but Obiwan had put that well in check and made him respect the skills. The combination of confusion, laxing, and unerestimation after getting comfortable with what seemed like an upper hand. Got him sliced in half. The situation and a complex turn of events with a surprise opponent killed him.

    Anakin
    The galaxy goes to hell in a hand basket because of, love. Love for his mother and love for Padme. He gave up on good because of the pain and turns to Vader. Ironically in ROTJ it is love that kills Vader revealing Anakin again. Love creates then destroys him.

    Palpatine
    His overconfidence is his weakness

    Dooku
    I would say overconfidence but he was smart enough to get ghost after Yoda tapped that booty. He will die a surprised and unestemated death as Maul did. He will be shocked at his opponets strength.

    Why do you think they fail?





  2. Obi-Clone_Kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2003
    star 2
    Villains fail because they have an advantage that they use as a crutch. They see themselves as untouchable which is why they start down this path in the first place.
  3. NeoBaggins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2003
    star 5
    Well put. I wonder if the cycle can be broken. Its like a decease that they are born with. The corruption clouds thier judgment and to whatever object they focus on. Strange, the Villin has all of his methods and weaopons at his disposel and everything seemingly in order. Yet the hero doesnt have this before him/her and victory usually manifest itself in the face of incredible odds as the hero is forced to rise to the occassion. Possibly surprising themselves.
  4. Obi-Clone_Kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2003
    star 2
    Heroes also have the drive to defeat the villian. Whether its because of justice, revenge, or simply because they know in their hearts that it's the right thing to do heroes generally want it more. Villains want; Heroes need.
  5. psxgeek Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2004
    heroes win because no one will like a movie where all the good guys die and the galaxy is enslaved.
  6. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    Untrue. There are a few films out there where the good guys loose. A few films that are well respected and reasonably popular, I mean.
  7. royalguard96 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2001
    star 5
    There are a few films out there where the good guys loose. A few films that are well respected and reasonably popular, I mean.

    I would argue "Platoon" is one of those.

    However, isn't the point of the PT the fact that the bad guys eventually win? I mean it's no secret Ep. 3 won't exactly be a happy-joy joy affair for people like Obi-Wan, Yoda and Mace. Although bad guys may "lose" along the way, when we're talking about the PT, the bad guys clearly win in the end.
  8. Ghost_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2003
    star 5
    royalguard96 darn you, you just took my post :mad:
  9. Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 1999
    star 7
    On the flip side, you could say almost every good guy in AotC has a failing or two. None of them managed to noticed their impending doom. None of the Jedi are going to manage to keep their order from being destroyed. A lot of good guys have the same weaknesses mentioned in the first post of this thread, in fact. Overconfidence? That's what the Jedi have. Blindness? How about Padme's "one-eyed" security guard. Too much love/impulsiveness? That's the cause of Padme's eventual Juliet-style downfall.
  10. NeoBaggins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2003
    star 5
    Love is a double-edged sword. Villins love possessions and power. The heroes are bonded to thier companions and mates with love. The worst enemy is the one who does evil for the love of the act itself. Pure hatred.

    I believe Dooku, as well as Vader later, has the ability to be less bad if not for the Emperor. Vader and Dooku seem to conduct evil acts based on the fear of the very hateful master. I think if they ruled alone there would be less killing. Then you have DarthMaul. He seems to be very hateful and enjoys his evil deeds needless of a masters whip to move him. He likes it. Ruling alone he would probably be the villin who cares not about possession but to gain strength from others pain. He would turn maniacal and then fail because of loosing focus. I think Vader and Dooku although mean, would actually run a functional and orderly riegn.

    Some heroes are heroes because they have no choice and must rise against an unwanted situation. Some heroes vow to fight before the war comes. I think the Jedi are these type of hero. They are bred for this reason and I think Obiwan is a pure Hero. Luke would have otherwise been a hero by circumstance thrown into his adventure but he always craved the heroes life. Han was the circumstantial hero and even tried to deny it but eventually accepted it and became a hero. Similar to how Ani would fight the darkside but eventually accept it feeling it his true calling.

    ESB, Bad guys won. EP3, if you think about, they win here also.
  11. river87 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2004
    that's a pretty big call saying that overconfidence is palpatine's weakness. the fact is, he (more-or-less) single handedly overthrew the jedi council, the senate and the entire republic. that's a fair effort don't you think?? reason enough to be confident surely??? palpatine's ONLY weakness is a hole in the death stars defences. more a result of oversight, than of overconfidence.
  12. MetalGoldKnight Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 4
    No, Palpatine's 'only weakness' wasn't the hole in the Death Star, that's simply the method he was killed by. It's like saying that Qui-Gon's weakness is a lightsaber. Palpatine's weakness was overconfidence, overconfidence in his ability to manipulate people. He thought he could control whatever people did, and up to a point that was true- everything that happened up to RotJ was more or less his doing, according to his plan. His first mistake was thinking that he was mentally powerful enough to turn Luke to the Dark Side. His second mistake was thinking that Vader would still be loyal to him even after he more or less said he wanted Luke to kill his father and take his place, and that Vader would just allow his son to be killed for not killing him.
  13. Smuggler-of-Mos-Espa Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2002
    star 6
    "It was just a job" Yeah. But trying to kill Jedi consitutes villainy. The most popular element of failiure is overconfidence but Zam's confidence surely took a blow when she witnessed the Jedis' persistance. I dont think overconfidence made her attempt to sneak up on Obiwan, she saw he was very hard to shake and deserves respect. Her failing was facing the fact that she couldnt escape and had to attempt to kill the Jedi no matter the outcome. A point of no return. I think she smerked before approaching him. Confidence or nervous reaction to the possible danger?

    First of all, Zam wasn't trying to kill a Jedi, she was trying to kill Senator Amidala and take the reward. Jedi were involved, unfortunately. In the end, the Jedi were just too much to her.
  14. SaberGiiett7 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2002
    star 6
    I agree that Emperor Palpatine wasn't overconfident. He didn't even trust his own de facto: Darth Vader. He realized everyone was vying for the position he held, and Vader really wanted to dominate with Luke.

    He was just plain too incompetent to destroy both Skywalker and Vader and raise a new predecessor to the title of Dark Lord of The Sith from birth (as he did with Darth Maul). :)

    <[-]> Saber
  15. DamonD Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2002
    star 6
    I don't know, Saber. I tend to agree with Luke about Palpatine...

    "Your overconfidence is your weakness."

    He's a very paranoid and suspicious guy, for sure, but feels that he is always right and will always have the plan to come out great. By the time we catch up with him again in ROTJ, he's had so many decades of success that he's become confident to the point of smugness :D
  16. Ret Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 1999
    star 6
    "I would say overconfidence but he was smart enough to get ghost after Yoda tapped that booty"

    What an intesresting sentence.
  17. Hananiah Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 15, 2003
    star 4
    I think that there is a need for an audience (sorry I do media studies) to see the villan fail because we need a sense of winning, that we know that in the end the human spirit will win out (Anakin in ROTJ)
  18. NeoBaggins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2003
    star 5
    Palpatine was confident in the DeathstarS Aability therefore overconfident. Look how proud of it he is.

    He spits"...This fully armed and operational battlestation"
    It is an underlining theme. "Dont be so proud of this technological terror.." Vader said. Palpatine thought it was invincable and his pride made him build another one. Arrogant, BA..!

    Smuggler
    If you look carefully at my post you will see we are saying the same thing. We know she wasnt there to kill Jedi but thats where the situation leads her after she couldnt kill the senator.
  19. IamZam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    in Palps case it was over confidence.

    He didn't think that Vader would ever turn on him, nor did he expect Han and Leia to get the shield down enabling the fleet to take out the death star. He had become arrogant in his abilities. He assumed Luke would fall like his father and that one of them would kill the other leaving him still with an apprentice.

    When Vader gave him the shaft, part of the reason he was defeated is because he never saw it comming. He was to evil to concieve of the love Anakin would have for his son, which is also an extension of his love for Padme (whose loss in my opinion will be one of the catalysts driving him to the dark side, ironic huh?)

    While many stories do end with the bad guys winning (for example ESB), Star Wars is not one movie, but rather one story told over a series of 6 movies, taking the role of chapters as it were. Some chapters end happy, some don't. But the final ending (ROTJ) is happily ever after, because SW is based on mythology, legend, fantasy and fairy tales, and ancient oral traditions.

    In these ancient oral tales, good always wins in the end, and there are usually several morals and lesson along the way as well as at the end. They are not merely stories for entertainment, but education as well.
  20. NeoBaggins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2003
    star 5
    Hhmm, Well said, Zam.

    I guess the same love that ceated Vader was the same love that destroyed the Emperor. Now I wonder if Palpatine would have ever been defeated had Anakin not turned into Vader.

  21. IamZam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    In some ways I have come to think, that had Anakin not become Vader he might not have gotten in to a position where he could destroy Palpatine.

    Palpatine is the definition of pure evil. Usually villians despite there evil ways will have some redeeming qualites, (Dooku chose the quick easy path to try and achieve his ideals, Zam if you read EU had a relationship of sorts with Jango and was sort of a semi mother figure to Boba, Nute and co were trying to gain more for thier home world) but Palps has none. He is evil inside and out. He uses anyone and everyone for his own gain, disposing of them the second they are no longer needed. He is manipulating everyone, like life size piecs in a giant chess game. He see's all others merely in terms of what they can or can't do for him. In ROTJ, and possibly in EPIII we see how powerful he really is, but that he also prefers to have others do his dirty work whenever possible, and when things don't go as planned (ie Luke refuses to turn like Anakin did), he gets extreemly angry. He is the ultimate sociopath.

    He finally fails because he is so arrogant as to think that he is undefeatable, and he has no idea how strong love can be. If loss of a loved one, can drive one to go darkside, the finding of a love one can bring one back. This is a concept that a person of pure evil can't grasp, as they are not capable of love. Not real love. Love of money and power, and control yes, but not real love of a person.

    Vader is nothing more than another pawn, another tool to Palpatine. If he were to loose him, he would replace him with no more forethought than most of us have when we replace a defective appliance. Its an annoyance, a bug in the plans nothing more.
  22. NeoBaggins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2003
    star 5
    Once again. Very well spoken. Your third paragraph almost rings at poetry the words are so true. You explained that the villin cannot grasp the concept of love which can eventually result in his downfall. I think you have summed up that entire section with a single post.

    I have not read the Novel to completion and I find it interesting that the characters you named including Nute, had more dimension. It is a shame that atleast a little wasnt inserted into the film. Showing what motivates a character is a key element in story telling. Perhaps in this case there are too many characters to customize in a worlds as big as STARWARS. Yet, knowing Nute had a reason for his behavior actually makes me look at him differently. Even though his deeds are evil its interesting to know he was doing it for his people. This makes him more than just a silly goofball villin who is there for the predictable trait of personal greed.
  23. ObiwanJohn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2003
    star 4
    Palpatine
    His overconfidence is his weakness

    And your faith in your posts is yours.


    :D I just couldn't resist.

    Now back to your regularly scheduled conversation.
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