Characters You Can Take the Farmboy Off The Farm... (Luke Skywalker Characterization)

Aaah, Luke and his love interests. One of my favorites past times.

I'll go ahead and say that I'm of the group that truly didn't see anything in TTT re: him and Mara. I've said it before, as I've said that I don't see it even upon re-reads and as someone who is now a fan of the pairing (diehard? ). The direction of the relationship in the HoT duology played out such that I was expecting them to end up together by the end of VotF (it was obvious that's where they were going in that duology even if it hadn't been obvious to me prior to SotP), but the proposal knocked me flat on my keister. I wasn't a fan of it initially, either. I didn't not like it, but because of my shock I wondered how this was going to play out and they had such a rocky back-and-forth friendship in the ten years prior (blame that one on what you will both IU and OOU).

In re-reads of HoT, I do like the proposal. It works for the moment they find themselves in (OMG, when he says "regardless" ). If they'd been given something more formal, I still don't see it playing out overly romantic. I don't begrudge them romance, per se, but Luke and Mara are about as far from goo and kissy-faces and rooms full of scented candles as two people can get. But I digress.

I guess I never gave Luke and love interests much thought in general in the course of the EU. Callista didn't bother me as a person or a rival to Mara. She bothered me on a basic story-telling and characterization level. There are some throwaway comic book characters, but most of them take place more during the OT-era than beyond, IIRC. Jem is the one exception I can think of, and she bites it in the beginning of DE, the comic she's introduced in. I think Luke's only serious candidates have ever been Callista and Mara. Akanah's always fun to bring up for the awkward factor, though.

The EU is just shoddy with romance in general. I don't want SW to turn into something out of Harlequin's, but come one. CoPL was beyond a joke as a novel, let alone a finalization of Han and Leia into a married couple. Most subsequent outings of both H/L and L/M haven't been much better.

 

I have no idea what you could mean.

Yes, dear. Diehard.

OMG, exactly. I swear, that one word turns that scene into one of the most romantic scenes I've ever read. That's what I love about Luke and Mara together: They are so not "You're Schmoopy!" "No, you're Schmoopy!" but they are incredibly romantic when it comes to the most genuine, lasting, important aspects of love. They'd do anything in the galaxy for each other. (Except be Schmoopy. I suspect that Luke would laugh if Mara tried it and Mara might smack Luke if he tried it. )

 

And this is exactly why I don't like Mara (well, one of many). So many people have them joined at the hip that almost any character discussion about Luke inevitably ends up being about her. Ahh the joys of writing post Jedi AU - even if it is an invitation to be a black sheep of fan fiction!

 

Oooooooooooooh, but there was a BIG contingent of fans who would disagree there. It was a 50/50 chance back then in the frantic days when ANH first came out. And I still have those early incestuous print fanfic zines to prove it. Hey, who knew they were related back then? I think Uncle George realized that he HAD to make it clear in TESB that Leia would go with Han, otherwise the SW films would have gotten an R-rating.

I'm sure I read 'The Crystal Star' ages ago, but I have to look it up on amazon to remember what it was about. I got it and 'Children of the Jedi' cheap at a remaindered bookstore. I like the original fic of both authors, but they don't seem to have played well in the GFFA.

One thing that bothered me about those and all the early EU books -- one of the reasons why lost interest in them -- was that the authors did NOT have the prequel backstory and it was obvious that they were tip-toeing around this problem, weakening all the stories. They didn't know about the Jedi, the Clone Wars, the Galactic Republic, all of it. And that fundamental weakness got built into the whole EU. And when they try to incorporate the backstory after the prequels came out it just looks like they're papering over a giant sinkhole that has already sucked down the middle of the house.

So, I really don't think Mara would have happened if they'd had the backstory.

 

Well, it's hardly endemic to just them. I personally can't remember the last time I saw a discussion of either Han or Leia without the other being brought into it in short order. I see the same thing happen with Jaina, Jacen, and Anakin. Even characters like Cade from Legacy or Zayne from KOTOR are often mentioned in conjunction with their significant others, or potential significant others. I think it's a fairly natural tendency for many people to think of a couple as - well, as a couple.

For myself, I think that Luke and Mara complement each other so well that it's a joy for me to discuss them together. Nor do I think that fanfic has black sheep; I've seen fanfic way more out there than AUs featuring OCs, and I think the genre has room to embrace all sorts of stories and styles. But I apologize if I threadjacked.

 

Oh I'm with you there (room for all) and don't think any discussion about Luke would be 'threadjacking' -

However - I did ask way up there and it never took off, so I'll see if it would fly now that this thread has life again -

I'm curious how people view Luke with Children - either his own, ('canon' or AU) or younglings, either Jedi or no...

What do you all think? I'll add my comments next time - off to bed (ahhh - lovely to have a night off!)

 

Callista was an interesting character right until the moment she walked into another person's body. I like weird just fine, but that...was freaky peculiar, even for someone who *loves* writing about ghosts and other topics of the dead. She would have been perfect in occasional future appearances to help Luke gather more knowledge about the Old Jedi Order. But the "love story"...I don't get it.

I'm not a fan of soppy romance. But I like to see *some* gestures that can't be misconstrued. Romance can be written in plain talk and still come across as romance. (This, of course, is coming from a writer who admittedly has a hard time writing romantic scenes. Mush doesn't go well with my digestion ).

Yeah, BIG problem on the first half. I have this feeling that Mara was created solely as Luke's future love interest, and a back story was created later on. Because her first appearance in HTTE talks about...her appearance. Catlike grace, red-gold hair, green eyes, dancer's body (IIRC). What does that tell a reader about HER, the woman? You find out later that she was one of the Emperor's minions, and that she's got this mandate to kill Luke, etc. But why is the first impression solely based on physical appearance?! You get further into the scene, and find out through Kaarde's POV that she's competent and certain other qualities. But still, you get the physical before you get anything else. Why couldn't physical attributes have been interspersed with Kaarde's perceptions of her abilities? I would have got a better sense of Mara as an individual, not just somebody's fantasy.

Yeah, I read some of that latter-day incest fic (because even after ROTJ, it was still being written, although with the angle of Luke/Leia being drunk, and having it take place before ROTJ. Freaky, to say the least ).

I still think Lucas was winging the plot throughout the trilogy, and decided to resolve the "love triangle" pretty much last minute. Making Luke and Leia siblings felt like a random idea tossed into a hat.

Well, that's good to know, coming from another black sheep fan fic writer.

Seriously, I'm glad to see someone acknowledge that it's okay to write the stuff that goes against the current. I don't know about other writers' experiences, but I've encountered some rather ardent canon fans that were *a bit* confrontational.

I literally see two possible universes: one where he does have kids, the other where he doesn't. Teaching younglings, I think he'd be an excelle

 

Luke with children.......well, I think he'd be very gentle and loving. However, I don't like the way Luke tries to give Jacen (or was it Jaina?) in 'Dark Apprentice' to Leia or Han when one of them had a stinky diaper. If I recall the words he said it was something like, "Leia you better perform your motherly duty...."

We don't know a whole lot about Luke's early childhood......when did Owen become gruff? Why did he work Luke so hard? Did Luke have a lot of friends? We know he had a few friends, but I don't think anyone that was his FRIEND like Biggs was. I think it was on the ANH Radio Drama where we have Luke introduce Biggs (when they are reunited before the Battle) as his "best friend".

So, I'd wonder if the way he was treated by Owen would affect him around his own children, younglings or niece/nephews.

 

Okay, so maybe it was just me. Actually, I don't really remember caring that much about it at the time. I guess the fact that I was already married several years when ANH came out kinda dulled my fangirl tendencies. Must be that 'second childhood' that reawakened them.

Yes, I do remember seeing those Luke/Leia fanfics. But not real recently, thank goodness.

Luke with kids: He'd be great. He IS great with them. From what the books give us, he was better with young students than his own son. (never did buy that story angle). He's patient, understanding, enthusiastic, and can relate to the impulsiveness of youth.

Other friends included Windy, Tank, and Deak, but Biggs was definitely his best friend.

As to Uncle Owen, I think it would affect Luke only to the extent that he'd want to be more like Beru, and avoid treating children (his own or others) like he was treated. Owen probably became more gruff just because they had a hard life, and he felt responsible for providing for his family. In later years, Luke's harping about going to the Academy wouldn't have helped. As well as Luke's penchant for taking off for joyrides in his skyhopper. Owen's work-centric personality didn't jive with Luke's adventurous spirit.

 

As far as Uncle Owen is concerned, I took the angle that he was gruff with Luke because he was protecting him from the life that his step-brother (Anakin Skywalker) took and destroyed him. Funny that the radio drama of ANH was mentioned bc I expanded a scene from it that showed how resentful Owen was to Obi Wan (Ben) whenever he was around. Owen made up a fake occupation for Anakin to tell Luke. That's telling me Owen didn't want him to become a Jedi. Remember Owen's reaction when Beru told him that Luke is too much like his father:

"That's what I'm afraid of."

And all that overprotective parenting did was fuel Luke's strong desire to leave and be adventurous.

I think Luke saw that same spirit in Ben and according to profic, he has no clue how to handle it. I agree that he would use Beru as more of a model parent and try not to be overprotective.

 

I agree that when Mara was first presented she does come across as a female fantasy. Then she's supposed to have all this emotional baggage from working for Palpatine, but it must be carry-on because she never comes across as someone who would have post-traumatic shock from leading the life of a Sith minion. She has a lot of attributes of a Mary-Sue, but she does not hijack the whole story. She mostly hijacks Luke over multiple stories, which seems to be what she was created for.

This doesn't really make me dislike Mara much. But it does make her more predictable and less interesting to me.

I suppose if Luke were presented only in print, and we didn't have the visuals and performances in the movies, that he might be more flat and less interesting, too. But we do have all the visuals, so that does give him more layers than the story we have.

I quite agree that Lucas was winging the story in the OT. But I don't think he just made up the brother-sister thing at the last minute. When ANH first came out he told everyone what the earlier drafts of the movie were and there was a brother and sister in those; there was even McQuarrie artwork. I'm sure he decided on their relationship by TESB if not sooner, which is why it was made clear that Leia was with Han.

Luke with kids: I think he would be good with kids -- he's such a nice guy -- but as you see him in ROTJ I don't think he would be very experienced with kids. All those annoying and irrational things they can do would throw him a bit the first time he runs into it. If he had his own kids, he would have lots of time to get experienced. But that might depend on who the mother is.

 

Ummm - more like for the guys - Long 'red gold hair' and a leather cat suit...

Anyway...

I thought (and ended writing - what can I say? ) that Luke would end up with a fellow Force sensitive and pilot.

On children, I think Luke is actually at his best with them whether they are his own or others. He has an inherently gentle, caring nature and I thought that as he matured and became more at peace, that would only become more apparent.

BTW, it's especially lovely to see Mark himself around kids (because it's so obvious he's still an eternal one at heart!) You can really see a mature 'Luke' there.

 

Um, the leather catsuit was never described in TTT. It comes from the graphic novelization of TTT, and I think we can all agree both that comics have a long history of such garb for women and that Zahn didn't have a whole lot of say over the art. And as a redhead and the daughter of a redhead, I do assure you that red-gold is a real and natural shade of red hair, and "red-gold" is perfectly fair way to describe it. My hair has darkened over the years, but as a teenager and in my early twenties, I had that shade myself. It's not fantastical and no woman deserves to be dismissed as silly, a mere fantasy for men, or unworthy of serious consideration on account of her hair color.

But like you said, Mara's not the focus of this thread, so onward and upward.

 

Hmmmmmmm, I guess that did not come out the way I meant. While Mara might indeed be attractive to women -- she is generically introduced as being attractive and athletic -- I meant a fantasy of a female.

Luke's caring nature would come out more if he were around kids. That alone makes me think that he had a good upbringing with Owen and Beru. Beru especially comes across as caring. And while Owen is stern and gruff, he is not mean or angry.

And I've always thought that Luke inherited Padme's nature and Anakin's looks. The exact opposite is true for Leia. Padme's looks and Anakin's temperment.

As a Jedi, Luke would turn out a lot like Obi-Wan IMO.

 

I so agree. I think the early novels (with Zahn and Tyers as shining execptions) did a horrible work capturing the Luke we see before ROTJ and who, no matter how much he matured, must have remained as his personality. The enormous change Luke undergoes in the movies is to me always the main thing to hold on when I write/read Luke.

Luke with children? He must be lovely, natural - but during the first years of the Jedi Academy I think his own self-doubts would but a slight damper on this. When it comes to his own son I think the problems occur only after Ben reaches his teens and Jacen's starts tossing Ben's head. Before that we only see L's and M's worries about Ben's connection to the Force, not any miss-sounds between parents and child. Or do I remember wrongly? Anyway, that would suit with my imagination of it; Luke would be a wonderful father to a child, but he'd have few clues how to handle a rebellious teenager.

Gabri - about your comment of red-gold as a natural hair color; I've always had a problem with the green eyes, maybe since I was born and raised in Finland where nobody has green eyes. So when Mara had green eyes and then Corran and then Tahiri - well, soon everybody in GFFA has green eyes - I got more and more annoyed. Then I started to look around me and it turned out that I know quite a number of green eyes, one of them my own husband! I've just never thought of the color as "green" 'cause in eyes it's usually not "green-green" but more like "green-because it's not blue or brown but something else". I think that as soon as we come down to describal of people's looks, we're so much down to conventions and prejudices. (On the other hand I hate it when a characters looks isn't describedl at least a little bit.) And after all; the farmboy we're discussing here; he's blond and blue-eyed; the very archetype of a hero that too isn't it?

 

Brief history hijack:

Technically, the first redhead with green eyes in the SW universe was Shira Brie (later Lumiya) in the Marvel comics. (But the first redhead would be Domina Tagge, also from the Marvel comics. This is pretty meaningless knowledge, but it does indicate a redhead fetish somewhere in the males who've created works for the Expanded Universe .

 

Right. We only get to see a small glimpse of Owen interacting with Luke in the movie. I'm sure he only became more stern as the years progressed, and the chance of Luke leaving on his own became more of a threat. It's obvious that he didn't want Luke to become a Jedi, but he couldn't come out and tell Luke that, without revealing that Luke had the Force. So from Luke's viewpoint, Uncle Owen was being overprotective for no good reason. Most teenagers view their parents' rules the same way.

I believe there will be coming out one of those 'Life and Times of...' autobiographical teen books about Luke, similar to the Obi-Wan and Vader ones that were already published by Scholastic. Hopefully that will give us a clearer picture into Luke's growing-up years (subject to the author's view, of course).

 

Even though the interaction we see is very short, we still get a general impression of Luke's relationship with Owen and Beru. When Luke says he wants to go to the Academy Owen doesn't get mad, he tells Luke that he's needed on the farm -- he only gets mad when it looks like Luke might not be doing his chores. Beru keeps silent until after Luke leaves and then expresses understanding for Luke.

But we don't have a lot of detail. Do the Owens have any family activities that Luke would be nostalgic about? Games, reading, holos? Does Beru cook any special meals? What kind of home schooling did Luke get? Are there other 'cousins' in the area around Anchorhead? Beru's family? Did Luke ever break/destroy anything special while he was growing up? There are a LOT of backstory details that we just don't know about Luke.

That is one thing that bothers me about the EU. They treated Luke like he was born at the beginning of ANH. He hated Tatooine, but he was bored, not miserable. Some happy things happened to him there, but we don't know.

 

One thing I don't like about catsuits is that they distract from a character's personality. The some problem happened with T'Pol from Star Trek: Enterprise. A lot of her detractors say she's just there to be a fantasy for men. Which is a shame because T'Pol is such a complex character. The catsuit is probably why Jolene Blalock doesn't get as much credit for her acting in that show as she should.

I definitely agree that Luke has more of Padme's personality than Anakin's. And I find that a lot of people on these boards feel the same way. Forgivness for attempted murder? Yes, he's a true Amidala.

Luke with kids? I think he would make a great father because of his empathy. As for his own childhood, I don't think the EU really covers it enough. I'm sure there were a lot of things about Tatooine that frustrated him but he had some happy memories with his family. I would like to see a story with one of Padme's handmaidens as Luke's teacher during his teen years.

 

Hmmmmm, I wonder what happened to those handmaidens. One was killed in AOTC, but there were others. I HOPE none of them ended up on Tatooine. Naboo is a MUCH nicer planet, even under the evil Empire dictatorship.

BTW, was the Empire in charge of things on Tatooine in ANH? Clearly Tatooine was not part of the Old Republic in TPM, but there seemed to be plenty of Imperial presence there in ANH. I suppose Palpatine's Empire would have expanded in the 20 years since ROTS. Empires do that.

About the catsuit issue.......ages ago in some old online discussion a male kid (I assume he was a kid) asked what was wrong with women wearing attractive clothes at work. I pointed out the problem with the male equivalent and he did sort of get it.

What if MEN wore the catsuit? They're more suited to it -- at least they don't have to take the whole thing off just to pee.

Well, we DON'T see men in catsuits (unless they're wearing capes or climbing walls). Luke would have looked good in one, too. He didn't walk around with his shapely biceps showing except on Dagobah when he was doing his Jedi workouts. So, why didn't he just wear his tank top on Bespin, hmmmmmmmmm?

Clothes that strongly emphasize body features -- the bosom, the waist, the hips, the biceps, the six-pack abs -- are distracting. They're designed to be distracting. Business suits, that only emphasize only the minimal aspects of male and female, are not distracting with the implication that the person wearing those clothes means business. The person visually emphasizing their body parts ....... is advertising something else.

 

The Empire only started paying attention to Tatooine in ANH when they were looking for a droid from the Rebel ship's escape pod. I think the Empire would have ignored Tatooine before then because it's a remote planet that has no real strategic purpose or useful resources.

Yeah, why didn't he wear his tank top on Bespin?

 

There had been a garrison in Mos Eisley for quite some time before ANH. However, Tatooine was hardly a high priority planet and the garrison was rather lax. Seemed to be more of a token authority than anything else.

 

Whoops!

Thanks for the correction.

 

No problem! As little as that garrison did, they're easy to overlook.

 

I think that Palpatine put a garrison on Tatooine because it was there. Empires like to expand wherever they can and I'm sure the Hutts would not have put up a fight. They could even be useful to the Empire.

I've been reading 'Shadows of Mindor' and the writing is fine, the dialogue is fine, the characterization is mostly fine, but I really wonder why Luke agonizing over every moral aspect of what he's doing???? He was in the Rebellion for years. But he's written like he's never had to deal with the conflict of innocents being killed in a fight before. That's ridiculous.

But it seems like in the EU he's always paralyzed with moral choices just because we saw him devastated in TESB after he got his hand cut off and found out his long-lost father was the second-most evil guy in the galaxy.

But the bad guy, Blackhole.......geeeeeeeeeez, he's introduced in the middle of the book armed with super-duper whiz-bang Sith alchemy that we've never heard of before, with 6 pages of back-story about his Evil Plan and what he's going to do to Luke. I was bored on the first page of that. I'll finish Mindor, but if I want post ROTJ Luke the way I think he should be I guess I'll have to write my own.