PT "You have been given a great honor...."

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by mjerome3, Jul 6, 2011.

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  1. mjerome3 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2000
    star 6
    Obi-Wan said this to Anakin when the Jedi Council refused to grant him the rank of Master. Anakin was not only very, very strong in the Force, he was also a Jedi Knight that was far and beyond the ordinary. Obi-Wan's thoughts about Anakin being given a great honor to sit on the Council at such a young age really didn't amount to much to Anakin. Anakin wanted to be a Master, and after his rescue of the Chancellor and victory over Dooku, he should have been greatly considered to be a Master regardless if Palpatine was meddling in Jedi affairs or not. Considering that Windu, Yoda, Ki-Adi, and the rest of the Jedi Council wanted Anakin to spy on the Chancellor as a assignment, it seems to me that granting him the rank of Master was the least they could do in exchange for this treasonous act that they were pressing him to do. They should have known that presenting Skywalker a gift of Council membership would slight him a great deal if they didn't make him a Master. Besides, something like that wasn't an everyday assignment. How many years during the 1,000 generations of the Jedi Order did the Jedi Council grant such a mission?


    Thoughts?
  2. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    Sounds more like being a member of the Council was merely a political thing for Jedi, a sign of status, & something many wouldn't care about (Qui-Gon didn't).

    Being granted the rank of Jedi Master, however, was a far more important step up, one that couldn't simply be handed out on a whim. A Jedi actually had to earn the title, it wasn't something that could be manoeuvred through favours & backroom dealings - and to earn it would take a great deal of time, the Jedi in question would not only have to be worthy, but ready.

    You'd like to think that a Jedi couldn't be promoted to Master unless the Force said so. That might sound silly, but despite their shortcomings, the Jedi weren't the type to give such titles away to anyone for political favours or money, the way the Catholic Church did during the Middle Ages.
  3. DARTH_DEEZY Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 1
    But Palpatine took control of the Jedi and had Anakin placed on the council
  4. Drewdude91 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2011
    star 1
    I think I read somewhere that to be a Jedi Master you had to train a Padawan to Knighthood. Not sure about other requirements, but I'm pretty sure that's one of them.
  5. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    My thoughts?

    Being the youngest Jedi ever named to the High Council is a great honor, even in Anakin's circumstances.

    Anakin did not deserve the rank of Master, imo he didn't even deserve the rank of Knight. He proved this with his actions and behavior both in AOTC and ROTS.
  6. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I remember an ugly thread on this topic several months ago...hope this one goes better.

    I don't really know what criteria the Jedi used to determine who deserved Mastery or a position on the Council. In TPM we have Qui-Gon being excluded from the Council because he wasn't blindly obedient to the Code, and as someone mentioned already, he didn't seem to care that much. From what I remember from the dialogue in the ROTS novelization, Anakin was told that his name had come up for Mastery but he was considered too "unpredictable." IOW he had mastered Jedi skills but had not mastered his own emotions. Which was certainly a fair assessment. On the one hand I've gotten the impression that the Order has a rule that a Jedi must have a reserved personality, which I find a bit unfair. But on the other hand, Anakin did let his personal feelings get in the way of sound judgment, and it's understandable that the Council was wary of that.

    As far as whether or not it was an "honor": maybe. Anakin certainly could have taken it as such instead of protesting, and then maybe he might have earned the Council's trust and even...eventually...a position on the Council that did not involve being the Chancellor's pet (we're talking way AU here). What I would like to know is, did the Council really have a choice in the matter or were they forced to do what Palpatine ordered them to do? Obi-Wan's comment, "By allowing it, we thought you could help us," almost indicates that they did have a choice--in which case, it was an honor. But I don't know that it's any great honor for Anakin if the Council were forced against their will to give him a position.

    That being said, I do think they put Anakin in a bad spot. He already knew that the Council didn't really want him there and didn't like him much. They were pretty condescending when they gave him the appointment, in both the film and the novelization. The novelization takes Mace's "Sit down, young Skywalker" several paragraphs further. (And please, please, no arguments about whether he deserved the condescension. They'll just delve into a "Yes he did!" "No he didn't!" match which will never be resolved or reach any kind of agreement.) And then they asked him to spy on one of the few people that had been friendly to him, whom he trusted. I think they should have been able to anticipate his reaction to that--and I think Obi-Wan did anticipate it. He said that he did not want to put Anakin in that position.

    The entire situation could have been handled better all around--by the Council and by Anakin.
  7. mjerome3 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2000
    star 6
    I think Anakin should have just taken the Jedi Council's orders without question, regardless of how close he was to Palpatine. Had he done that, even if he never did dig up any dirt on Palpatine, he would have appeared more mature in the face of the Council. And shortly thereafter, they would have probably made him a Master. A good example before Anakin all throughout the Clone Wars were the clones themselves, taking orders without dispute. But what does Anakin do? He assumes that just because he's made Palpatine's representative on the JC, he should be a Master. Wrong. He didn't truly earn that appointment and he knew it. So, why should he be made a Master?
  8. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    So you're saying he should have spied on his friend (and the head of state) for personal gain? :confused: No offense, but, how is that better than being upset at the assignment? Imagine if Palpatine had asked Anakin to spy on Obi-Wan, for reasons of Galactic security, because he suspected that Kenobi might have Separatist sympathies. How in the world would that be okay? Yet that's exactly what the Jedi ask Anakin to do -- they ask him to spy on Palpatine in the interest of security because they believe him to have a connection to the Sith. Granted, Anakin by no means had a mature response to the Council, but that doesn't make what they were asking of him right.

    I do agree with you that Anakin wasn't ready to be a Master, however.

    To be honest, one of the issues I have with this idea is that it seems to me that Obi-Wan immediately undercuts his own argument by telling Anakin that "the only reason the Council approved your appointment is because the chancellor trusts you." I don't know about you, but it doesn't seem like much of an honor in such a scenario. It's like being accepted as the member of a band, not in recognition of your skills or because the members like you, but because your father is a famous rock star and you have connections. I can't really see much such a position as much of an honor under these circumstances, personally.

    I agree. However, I think one of the larger issues with Anakin is that he doesn't completely understand that much of the Jedi's advancement is based on personal development, self-discipline, and self-mastery. He's very much an action-oriented person, which isn't surprising given that his upbringing valued people based on their skills/accomplishments rather than how developed and balanced they were as a person. As such, he likely feels the refusal of Mastery is a "snub" when he can do many of the things those on the council can. Even in AOTC, his force sense seemed as attuned as Obi-Wan's, he was also one of the few Jedi to survive Geonosis. Then, in the ROTS opening, Anakin basically does most of the legwork -- flying them into the Invisible Hand, defeating Dooku, rescuing Obi-Wan, landing the ship. Yet Obi-Wan is on the Council and he is not. Anakin looks at what he has done rather than his emotional maturity as an indicator of whether he should be a Master. And if you look at service in the war (shown in the films) Anakin is about at Obi-Wan's level.

    There's also the issue of station and rank -- which is very important throughout the PT. One of the reasons, I imagine, Anakin is so eager to be a Master is that it would put him on "equal-footing," as it were, to the other Jedi, like his master. For someone who grew up as a slave, being denied "equality" cuts a bit deeper than it would otherwise. It feels like they are putting him down with their refusal to grant him Mastery. I don't believe the Council intends this, but it's how they come across. Obi-Wan tells Anakin he "will learn [his] place" (not something you want to say to a former slave), padawans often walk behind their Masters, and note the way the Council addresses him -- young Skywalker--which does have a bit of an infantilizing tinge to it (although given Anakin's recent behavior, I can't say I blame them). Anakin resents being unable to hold himself as an equal to his mentor and fellow Council members, espec
  9. mjerome3 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2000
    star 6

    The problem is the Jedi sense there is something wrong. Why is Palpatine still the Supreme Chancellor long after his term has concluded? This was Anakin's one chance to show the Council how dependent, stable, and mature he was. He could have easily spied on the Chancellor for six months to a year, and reported back anything out of the ordinary. Now as Vader, he had to reflect back on everything that happened and knew that the Council's suspicions about Palpatine were right.
  10. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    In hindsight, Council's decision to make Anakin to spy on Palpatine wasn't exactly the smart one. If they thought he was compromised, they couldn't be sure he'd report everything.

    Mace Windu: "Very dangerous putting them together. I don?t think the boy can handle it. I don?t trust him."

    Mace was against it but was overruled by the rest?
  11. superjedi90 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2011
    I think Anakin would being probably named Jedi Master after the war. Obi-Wan was right, one thing at the time. Anakin is already sit with the Jedi Council a this age. It's obviously a honor. The Jedi Council wanted to take their times and be sure is ready to be Master and to see how Anakin react in differents situations.
  12. mjerome3 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2000
    star 6
    Think back to TPM when Obi-Wan, as a Padawan Learner readily announced that he was ready to face the trials. Think back again to Anakin in AOTC when he was telling Padme how overly critical Obi-Wan was of him and how he wanted to move on. Think back to when Anakin told Padme that he was really ahead of Obi-Wan.

    Anakin was never ahead of Obi-Wan. Even Anakin in ROTS wasn't ahead of the Obi-Wan of TPM. Obi-Wan as a Padawan Learner to Qui-Gon Jinn was more of a Jedi than Anakin was even in ROTS.

    If Anakin had allowed his loyalties to lie with the Jedi alone, he would have been able to go through with it. He would have been able to see past his own wants and he certainly would have been able to follow order without thinking about it. So when Palpatine finally reveals himself as the Sith Lord, why be angry? The Jedi knew that there was something not right about Palpatine from the start. Why not strike him down with his lightsaber and be done with it? Why report Palpatine to the Jedi Council when Anakin himself could have killed Sidious and balanced the Force right then and there?
  13. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Anakin set a record by being appointed to the Council and being a sports fan I've always looked at records with respect.

    As for Anakin's slave past effecting every little thing, he needs to realize he's no longer a slave thanks to the Jedi.

    The Jedi are his family, friends and comrades, not his slave masters.
  14. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    The problem is, the Jedi have not exactly been a warm place, especially for a boy who'd actually lived with his mother. The only one who cared about him is Obi-Wan, and even he was treating him like a little kid in AOTC. That doesn't excuse Anakin's betrayal, but it must have contributed to it.
  15. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Yes, they were, and I think on some level Anakin knew this. He makes a comment in the ROTS novelization, a comment which did not make it to the film, along the lines of "I won't be part of your political game. The Jedi are my family." (I can get the context of the quote later if needed, it was made to Palpatine.)

    But as far as his slave past, I think the psychological scars from that experience (and from the brutal way he lost his mother) were far too deep to overcome without some very intense help, help which the Jedi were not prepared to offer and could not have possibly been prepared to offer. I'm certainly not saying that what he did was excusable because "he was a slave and couldn't help it." If Anakin went in trial at the end of ROTS and I were on the jury, I wouldn't let him walk due to that. But it does lend some understanding as to why he reacted the way he did to certain things.

    I agree with you, at least to a point. I don't think they were cold to him, but they were not as nurturing as Shmi either. It wasn't in their nature. It's hard enough for a 10-year-old kid to leave his mother, and I think Anakin needed the more nurturing environment that she provided. And before anyone jumps all over me for saying that, "nurturing" does not, in any way, mean "no discipline." We saw in TPM that Shmi did not take any crap off Anakin.

    And again, before anyone says it, I am not "blaming" the Jedi for what happened. I think they did the absolute best they could.

    Well, in all fairness, Anakin was behaving like one in several scenes.
  16. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I understand that the Jedi sense something is wrong. That still doesn't give them the authority to have Palpatine spied upon. Imagine that Palpatine told Anakin that he'd like him to spy on Obi-Wan because his agents have been reporting that Anakin's old Master has been meeting with people of questionable character/loyalty. Is that suddenly okay? In both scenarios, Anakin has been told by authority figures that they have reason to believe one of his friends is up to something and needs to be monitored. Yet, if Anakin spied on Obi-Wan without question, almost everyone would say he was wrong to do so. I understand that Palpatine is evil, but Anakin and the other characters don't know that. To them, Palpatine is as legitimate as the Jedi Council.

    As for why Palpatine is still the Supreme Chancellor after his term has concluded, Anakin answers this one -- the Senate demanded that he stay. And he saw nothing out of place with it. I've got to say, spying on any of his friends without a fight would make Anakin a rather poor friend, and being willing to turn your back on others and break laws/the Code doesn't prove you're "dependable, stable, or mature" in my opinion. Granted, spying on Palpatine wouldn't have been the worst thing Anakin would have done in ROTS, but it's not a point in his favor, either.

    And of course, the Council was right, in the end. But everything is clearer in hindsight isn't it? Even if you suspect someone to have murdered another person, you can't bring them to trial without evidence, even if, later on, it does turn out that they were guilty of said crime. And incarcerating them without just cause is a crime regardless of the outcome.

    In terms of attachment, maturity (is this really surprising? Obi-Wan is 25 in TPM, Anakin is 23 in ROTS), and mental development as a Jedi, Obi-Wan is certainly more advanced than Anakin. But I think Anakin is referring more to his skills as a Jedi, his Force abilities, then his attainment of Obi-Wan's more zen-like state. He does, after all, note that in some, or a lot (but not all) ways, he's ahead of Obi-Wan. And he's right about that to a degree. He's rescued Obi-Wan from Gundarks, he senses Padme in danger first, he was able to keep tabs on Zam, he outlasted his Master in the duel against Dooku. And that's just AOTC, when he's still a padawan. It doesn't make Anakin better than Obi-Wan by any stretch, but considering how action-oriented Anakin is, it must rub him the wrong way that he can do all these things that Obi-Wan can't and he's stuck as a padawan. Again, he misses the point that advancement in the Jedi Order is much more focused on self-control and emotional mastery rather than individual skills.

    To use your sports analogy, though, how would you feel if someone was the youngest person to be inducted into the Hall of Fame for a sport (thus setting a new record), but was told it was
  17. Darthbane2007 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2007
    star 4
    Like everyone said, anakin doesn't deserve to be a master, or to even sit on the council in the first place.

    The only reason Anakin ever got on the council at all is because he's been buddy-buddy with Palpatine for the last 3 years of the war, and possibly a lot of the previous 10 years as well. It also helps that Palpatine at the time had direct control of the Jedi Council. Palpatine could have put JarJar Binks on the council if he wanted to. Doesn't mean he should be on, or even a master.

    And based on what we know of Anakin, he doesn't deserve the rank of master at this time. Just because he rescues the head of state and kills the opposing side's one doesn't mean he's sufficent enough. He has a secret marriage to Padme, going against one of the major rules of the Jedi ( For this point in time). He does not display great wisdom and hardly listens to his superiors, such as when he went after Ventress during the Muunilist campaign, even though Obi-Wan knew it was a ruse and advised him to let her go.
  18. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Couldn't the Council have refused Anakin's appointment, though? I mean, they certainly reject the Chancellor's request to have Anakin lead the campaign against Grevious -- Mace Windu flat out tells him that the Council will "make up its own mind on who is to go -- not the Chancellor" and then Yoda explicitly says that a Master is needed. I don't think that the Council had to accept Anakin; even Anakin himself doesn't think he'll get a seat initially.
  19. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    But did he have to sound so irritated every time? Not exactly a calm and collected Jedi sensei. I'm not the only one with this impression. I remember watching GT CW with my husband, who'd only seen each SW movie a couple of times, and he asked me: "Is Lucas going to explain why Obi-Wan hates Anakin so much?" They come off as friendly only in the opening scenes of ROTS, and that ends all too soon.
  20. Obi-WanLikeaBoss Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2011
    I think that Obi-Wan treated Anakin like a younger brother. What annoys me, is the lack of respect Anakin shows Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan is an older, much more experianced Jedi, and has taught Anakin everything he knows, and brags about.
    Obi-Wan never loses his temper, apart from at the end of ATOC and he was right to do so, Anakin let his feelings take over, which is not the Jedi way at all. He then ignores his advice, resulting in Dooku defeating them.
    If Anakin had listened to Obi-Wan more, he could have avoided turning to the Dark Side like he did.
  21. Darthbane2007 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2007
    star 4
    I believe that Palpatine knew this would exactly happen; the council would not accept Anakin's appointment, and basically go on as if he is not there. Anakin gets pissed, thus giving him more reason to turn his back on the Jedi...
  22. Obi-WanLikeaBoss Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2011
    Yes, this exactly. He made his own fate.
  23. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    He still gets to sit on the Council. He's privy to the Council's discussions, he gets to put in his word and vote on matters. The only people that know of the circumstances behind his appointment are the Council members themselves, the rest of the Jedi Order doesn't know. To them, he's a member of the Jedi High Council and will be given the respect accorded.

    The experience itself, regardless of circumstance, is a great honor.
  24. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Actually he doesn't have voting rights, and I don't think his input was welcomed either. I would need to check on the latter--I don't remember if he was told not to talk at all or simply that he was not to participate in Council decision-making. I know this wasn't clear in the films, but Yoda is pretty straightforward about that in the novel. He specifically mentioned that Anakin could not vote and that his only role there was as the Chancellor's representative.

    I'll pull the exact quote later. My impressions of this scene were definitely influenced by the novelization.
  25. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Don't bother, I don't care what the novel says.

    Because in the movie, he does get a say and a vote, the rest of the Council just doesn't agree.
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