PT "You have been given a great honor...."

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by mjerome3, Jul 6, 2011.

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  1. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Did he vote in the movie? [Face_confused]. I haven't watched that part in awhile but I don't remember any voting at all, just discussion about who was going to Utapau and Kashykk, in which Anakin threw in his input, uninvited, and was brushed off. I didn't consider that "getting a vote", just taking one. [Face_tongue]
  2. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Yeah, he doesn't take a vote in the film.
  3. Drewdude91 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2011
    star 2

    This doesn't make much sense to me in the film. Who actually supported Anakin spying on Palpatine? Windu certainly didn't. Obi-Wan didn't want him to. Judging by Yoda's non-verbal expressions, he didn't seem to be on board either.
  4. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Again, per the novelization--everyone except Obi-Wan and Mace thought that Anakin's friendship with Palpatine was a great asset to the Jedi because they needed someone in Palpatine's "inner circle" to root out Sidious. Yoda's reservations had to do with the Dark Side surrounding both Palpatine and Anakin but he was not totally against the idea. Mace was, for reasons stated in the film, and Obi-Wan was, because he knew that Anakin's loyalty lay with people, not ideals, and that he would greatly resent being asked to choose Jedi ideals over a friend.
  5. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    The way the film plays out, however, gives me the impression that Anakin really became a member in name only, though, based on how the others responded to him (whether justified or not). For example, we have Mace Windu's explicit distrust of Anakin, then there's the scene where Anakin requests to lead the attack on Utapau -- where's he's quickly shut down and doesn't cast a vote. The most prominent example, for me, though would have to be when Mace tells Anakin to inform the Council that Obi-Wan has made contact with Grevious. If you watch closely, you'll notice that Windu ensures that Anakin has left the room before continuing to discuss matters with the other members -- such as if the Chancellor should be removed from office. The scene that follows this also has Anakin state that he feels excluded from the Council. These scenes, then, in conjunction, suggest to me that Anakin has been placed a very precarious, and not wholly welcomed, position. We never see him vote, he spends all of his time relaying what the Chancellor has said, and the others purposefully wait until he has left to discuss matters of import.

    And, to be honest, the fact that the general Jedi population does not know of the reason for his appointment is not necessarily a bonus. In all likelihood, it could make Anakin feel like a fraud and a pawn more than an equal. An opportunity that is based on a lie and manipulation is also hardly what I would consider a positive experience, let alone a great honor.
  6. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 4
    Anakin was impatient and immature. These are traits that showed he lacked the wisdom to lead others from such a high seat. Anakin was the victim of too much praise and everybody is to blame for this, including his mom.
  7. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I agree with you that Anakin was impatient and immature, and I don't think he deserved a Council seat, but this...I strongly disagree. The only person in Anakin's life who praised him too much is Palpatine. Given what a well-adjusted, stable, sweet kid Anakin was in TPM--particularly for a kid who is a slave--I think criticism of Shmi's parenting is way over the top. I don't and never will--don't even want to try to--subscribe to the mentality that praising a child when he genuinely does something well or shows a good character trait is a bad thing. The only time that "too much praise" is a bad thing is when it's done for the purpose of blowing sunshine up someone's ass, as Palpatine did.
  8. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 4
    Dude, they called him the chosen one, and they weren't even sure if he was. If that isn't too much then, what is?
  9. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    That wasn't Shmi; I was primarily addressing the latter part of your statement. As far as Qui-Gon calling Anakin the Chosen One--with Anakin standing right there--I agree with you completely, that was wrong. I might dispute whether it was wrong because it swelled Anakin's head or whether it was wrong because he always felt the pressure to live up to that standard, however.
  10. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 4
    His mother did say he was made for great things.
  11. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I don't think there's anything at all wrong with that. My parents told me the same thing when I was a kid, and I'm no Sith Lord. :p I actually thought that was a pretty normal thing for a parent to say to a kid, not over the top praise at all.
  12. Shira_Adola Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2011
    star 4
    I completely agree with anakinfansince1983. My mother always told me that I could do great things if I tried and did my best. It's a normal thing for a parent to tell their child (at least in my experience).Aas for Qui-Gon, I agree that he shouldn't have said that Anakin was the chosen one, and most definitely not in front of the boy, although I can understand to an extent why he did. He was so convinced and so sure that he was right, how could he possibly not voice his beliefs? I think that in the beginning, it made him apprehensive. I mean, who wouldn't be freaked out? You get taken from your mother, to be the one thing you have always dreamed to be, and then you find out that your hero thinks you're the one to save the entire Jedi Order from destruction? I know I wouldn't deal well with that. But, as his apprenticeship goes on, and he grows more confidant in his skills and abilities? I think that is a definite opening for some big-time head swelling.
  13. EMPEROR_WINDU Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2002
    star 5
    In the novel Anakin gets his hopes up when Palpatine informs him that he's going to be on the Jedi Council because it means a bump up to the rank of Jedi Master. Anakin is desperate to learn everything he can about the Force to try and prevent Padme's death and to do that he needs unrestricted access to the Jedi Archives. Since only a Jedi Master has access to everything in the archives, Anakin's disappointment in the Council chamber has less to do with his lust for power or pride and more to do with his quest to save Padme.

    In the film this doesn't come to light as we don't get to hear what Anakin's thinking, but in the novel it's spelled out pretty clearly.
  14. mjerome3 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2000
    star 6

    The book is always deeper than the movie. I haven't read the ROTS novel in quite some time, but I know what you mean.
  15. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    That's also true in the film.
  16. NelanisGhost Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2006
    star 4
    Though to beings hundreds of years old, Anakin was a child. No matter how mature he was or wasn't they would always see him that way. Just a child they liked using as an errand boy to get what they wanted out of the Senate and Palpatine.

    One thing that disgusting my was after YEARS of incredible heroics and loyalty and courage, Mace says "if you're not LYING about the Chancellor, you will have earned my trust". WTH was that? He should have trusted him implicitly by then. He earned the trust. he had no real loyalty to Palpatine up until that point, just a mentor friendship.
  17. NelanisGhost Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2006
    star 4

    LOL! ALL mothers dote on their sons. Alec Baldwin still thinks he's going to be President because his mom told him he would. His teacher told him he'd be famous of the POTUS. He obviously believes this and he's not 8.
  18. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    The only person on the Council over 100 at that point is Yoda. All the rest are under 100 years old. Mace, who is second only to Yoda, is only 53 while Ki-Adi-Mundi is 73.

    If you're trying to say that they couldn't take him seriously because of his youth, well they have always taken Obi-Wan seriously and he gets on the Council at age 35, a mere drop in the bucket in comparison to Yoda.

    Why should he trust Anakin? His behavior has never been worthy of trust.
  19. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    There is something really off about that scene with Mace and Anakin, particularly in the film--the novel does it much better.

    They know Anakin is close to Palpatine; he is such close friends with Palpatine that the Jedi are uncomfortable. They also know that the Sith Lord is someone working in Palpatine's inner circle. So when Anakin comes to Mace--in the novel, pale, sweating and shaking--and says that Palpatine is a Sith Lord, I don't know why Mace would consider any possibility that Anakin was lying, even if Anakin has lied in the past. What would be Anakin's motivation for lying? And even if there were such motivation, Anakin is not exactly that good an actor. If he were lying, that type of performance would earn him an Oscar.

    Plus, Mace says his "If what you are telling me is true..." line and then indicates that he believes Anakin completely by going into Palpatine's office and immediately putting him under arrest. If he thought there was any question about Anakin's honesty there, why not confront Palpatine with the accusation first?
  20. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    I don't think Mace believes Anakin is lying about Palpatine, that's not what he distrusts.

    MACE WINDU: For your own good, stay out of this affair. I sense a great deal of confusion in you, young Skywalker. There is much fear that clouds your judgment.
    ANAKIN: I must go, Master.
    MACE WINDU: No. If what you told me is true, you will have gained my trust, but for now remain here.

    Anakin is afraid and confused and Mace doesn't trust him to handle the oncoming situation.

    The "earn my trust" is just a way to try to convince him to stay behind, he's offering Anakin a reward for obedience.
  21. DARTHLINK Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2005
    star 3
    That's what any parent would say. I'm sure Shmi scolded/spanked Anakin whenever he acted like a spoiled brat around her.
  22. jc1138 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2004
    star 1
    Yeah, I think Anakin is immediately onto the Council's sad ploy to use him as an agent against Palpatine and he knows that his council membership is nothing more than a means to that end. Where's the honor in that? Sure, he could have been less-whiny about bringing up not being made a master right when they tell him he will sit on the council, but I don't fault him for not seeking this position, even though he is probably not enough in control of himself to earn "mastery." What does mastery give a Jedi anyway? All we know from the films is that it grants access to more information in the Archives, and that comes from Palpatine. I'm sure there's EU stuff about this . . .
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