You have been warned!

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Plo_Koen, Aug 4, 2004.

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  1. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    If TPM was the first ever SW film I don't think it ever would've made it to ANH...

    [face_thinking]

    Yeah, and guess who also had this genius yet misunderstood idea 30 years before you, smartpants.
  2. Darth_Maul_Sith_Lord Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2004
    star 4
    First Off, What?

    Second, Sorry to tell ya but the major reason for TPM's success is due to the fact that People had been waiting for another Star Wars movie since the ROTJ. I'm sure there would still be an interest, but it is not now, and probably would not have been as revered as the OT.

    The fact is, if you slap the title "STAR WARS" on a movie or a TV show SW fans are gonna check it out...
    I mean come on how many of us saw The Ewok Adventure?

    Now I will admit that the PT's thus far are way better than the Ewok movies, but they're still not on the same level as the OT. I still enjoy them, but it's not the same quality.

    I personally don't care how they're viewed. I'll watch them in order to get the experience, but I doubt that's how I'll always view it...

    D_M_S_L


    Oh BTW you might've gotten more support had you not come off so rude, "A flaw more common among PTers".

  3. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    First Off, What?

    Lucas

    but they're still not on the same level as the OT

    I agree, but that's totally NOT what this thread is about.
  4. SilverWook Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2004
    star 1
    "Ok, I will make an exception for those who were unfortunate enough to see the original 'Star Wars' between 1977-1980, but for the rest of you:"

    Unfortunate?! I consider myself blessed. Star Wars happened at just the right time for me. :)
  5. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    ;)

    I think I've seen the original in 1980, but I'm not sure.
  6. Helmet Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2001
    star 5
    but they're still not on the same level as the OT

    I only have ESB rated higher than TPM and AOTC.



  7. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    Repeat: is NOT what this thread is about...
  8. jakbar316 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2004
    star 4
    Well, much like the droids, It's time for me to have my memory erased, so I can watch the episodes in chronological order.
  9. threepio_mania Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 15, 2002
    star 3
    Well there's no wrong way to eat a Reeses.

    Now, if there is no wrong way to do something as important as that, surely there is no wrong way to watch Star Wars. :)

    If I ever have kids and they want to watch Star Wars they can probably do the same thing I did to get introduced to Star Wars, and that is to just grab whichever movie interested them at the time. I first saw Star Wars when I was looking through my family's video colection and saw the Star Wars tape. I decided to watch it out of curiosity. Then again, there wasn't as much of a choice as far as watching the trilogy in order is concerned because we only had Star Wars at the time.
  10. master_organa Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2004
    star 5
    I will show them (I must be a real planner, I decide their Star Wars fate before having any) 4-6, then 1-3.
    The Main Reason: ;)
    They will not now about the Luke and Leia's relation.
    So I will not have to clean the puke off the carpet after the kissing scene. [face_dancing]
  11. fosh-bantus88 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2003
    star 4
    You don't know that... neither do I, but let me tell me what you lose with the revelation:

    - The Anakin becomes Vader revelation in ROTS


    true, but seeing someone transform is different from learning a character has transformed. there are no clues that vader is lukes father 5 minutes before it is revealed, but you can pretty much see anakin's fall coming.

    - The deeper meaning of the lightsaber duel in ANH

    i dont think that duel was ment to have as much meaning as the one in episode III. either way, you dont loose or gain much in terms of the overall feel of the movie. but this one does not matter as much to me.

    - The sweet irony in the battle of Yavin

    i think what made this scene work was that luke had done the impossible. when you have already seen the same type of thing done before, it looses some shine.

    - The notion that Anakin became aware of his son

    not a very suprising thing in my opinion.

    - The underlying tension in Vader's conversation with the Emperor

    i think the degree of mystery that shrouded this conversation only made it more suspenseful.

    - The deeper meaning of the lightsaber duel in ESB

    you win some you loose some.

    - The revelation that Anakin still aknowledges his former identity

    between "that name no longer has any meaning for me." and "you were right" i think this revalation can be gotten to, independant of the backstory.

  12. Darth_Digital Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 4
    Plo_Koen;

    Considering your passion for this topic, (and the fact that you created this thread) I can certainly apprecaite your feelings toward Episode order/continuity;

    However, your constant; "You are incorrect" retorts suggest your not receptitive to another point of view

    I don't expect to convince you to see eye to eye, but on behalf of many (including myself) I'd ask you to consider a few things about the OT as opposed to the PT.

    First of all, lets start with the source;

    George Lucas.

    Lucas himself said many moons ago that the reason he specifially started with Ep4 as opposed to the at the time 'incomplete backstory' was cause the characters and situations in the middle act would be more 'marketable' for the audience, to say nothing of the ability to 'set the stage.' of this epic space opera.

    Your relation to Ep5 as opposed to Ep4 further proves this point. Again, Lucas said it himself in interviews long ago that Ep5 was much easier, and more enjoyable to write as he now knew the characters, and better fleshed out his universe.

    If not for the success of the first movie, its unlikely we'd have got much of a continuation other then a made for TV movie concerning force powered crystal shards and Luke and Leia becomming lovers. ;)

    Even with all these excellent changes to the Original Trilogy on DVD, the Star Wars experience is best viewed from Ep4-6 (At least in my opinion)

    First of all, wether sequels or prequels, they are by definition, designed to compliment, accessorize, expand, and of course continue to cash in, on the success of the first movie. (Ie; Ep4)

    The FIRST movie (released) that introduces you to the universe, characters, and overall point of creating this genre in the first place.

    If your a newbie, wether child or adult to the Star Wars universe, and watch Ep1 first your gonna run into problems.

    1. Someone that's possibly trying to introduce you to these movies is going to constantly chime in, giving you bits and pieces of information that Ep1 wouldn't give so easily.

    2. The lost drama element; I don't care what any SW fanatic would say, Ep1's primary purpose was to re-introuce viewers to the universe, putting more emphasis on the political structure of the Star Wars universe.

    The title is Star WARS.

    Not "Blockade Wars" Nor "The adventures of Space Christ and the Skywalker kid."

    Lucas made it clear that his movies are like gears on a race car; you change speed with each new track so to speak.

    Ep4 was the slowest paced movie of them all. That was the idea. A dialogue movie, with explosive bits here and there to go with your popcorn and awe for something new in Sci-Fi.

    Ep1, admittidly had some slow parts here and there, but ultimately that direction was geared more towards foreshadowing the collapse of democracy. But the pace is still much quicker with Pod races and three-way Lightsaber duels.

    How can anybody NOT introduce someone to Star Wars with Ep4?

    Primarily, your meant to see the introduction through the eyes of a niave and idealistic young man;

    Luke Skywalker.

    Through three films, the viewers would accompany Luke through an epic adventure, in search of manhood, wisdom and redepmtion of his father, and the restoration of freedom throughout the galaxy.

    As opposed to the Wizard of Oz, its better to introduce a hero off the farm, instead of a slave pen.

    Second; With someone of Alec Guiness's calibre, wouldn't it better set the tone of an introduction to the force, the sad story of Darth Vader, the betrayal of the Galactic Republic, and the beginnings of true Rebellion as the villians complete the ultimate weapon.

    Do you know the stampede to Battlestar Galactica this would have caused if our intro to Star Wars concldued with a 9 year old boy destroying a robot ship to win the affections of a 14 year old girl?

    Boxey;

    "Can I ride in your ship sir?"

    Captain Apollo;

    "Fighter planes are no place for a little boy..."

    ;)

    And then you have the religioso theme to consider.

    Wether the 70's or the new Millenium, if th
  13. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    I'm not advocating the obsoletion of the Vader Revelation. It's a great loss, but it's inevitable: The Star Wars Saga is about the rise, fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker, and you can not let your main character disappear for almost half the story. My point is that the Saga works as a balance: lose some on one side, gain some on the other. The OT will not be as surprising as we experienced it for the first time, but on the other hand there will be other surprises in the PT, and more dramatic context in the OT, for those who watch it 1-6 for the first time.

    But it's all very subjective, we haven't even seen ROTS yet, and when we have, we still can't compare the experience with someone who sees the Saga in correct order.


    "Considering your passion for this topic, (and the fact that you created this thread) I can certainly apprecaite your feelings toward Episode order/continuity"

    Thank you.

    "However, your constant; "You are incorrect" retorts suggest your not receptitive to another point of view"

    Incorrect. :p

    But it provokes a vigorous reaction. ;) I'll reply more in-depth later, but first a quote from the creator himself:

    "This really is conceived as a 6 part movie in which episode 1 is the first chapter and sometimes it's difficult to keep that in mind, that each film, while it's important in itself (...) really is fitting into a larger mozaic, and the whole enterprise won't really be understood, I think, until you can sit down and watch all 6 episodes and the fall of the story, cuz we're dealing with micro stories here. The larger picture is kind of a different story."

    Again: Lucas' words, not mine.
  14. fosh-bantus88 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2003
    star 4
    meh. the story is more important than the story teller.

    besides, people can take different things from different interpretations. there are many "right" ways to enjoy the same story.

    what you have to remember is that episodes I-III are (in lucas's own words) the backstory. this indicates that his primary purpose in making the films was to support and expand on the original story.

    2 stories, one saga. thats the way i see it.
  15. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    what you have to remember is that episodes I-III are (in lucas's own words) the backstory. this indicates that his primary purpose in making the films was to support and expand on the original story.

    Exactly, this statement is true either way you watch 'em.
  16. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    First of all, lets start with the source;

    George Lucas.


    See quote above.

    Even with all these excellent changes to the Original Trilogy on DVD, the Star Wars experience is best viewed from Ep4-6 (At least in my opinion)

    That's an interesting point. Don't you think that people will be confused when they see 2 unknown planets and a new character at the end of ROTJ?

    If your a newbie, wether child or adult to the Star Wars universe, and watch Ep1 first your gonna run into problems.

    Like with ANH, the audience is thrown head first into an unknown Galaxy. Yes, there will be some problems, but nothing that won't be solved later. TPM is the prologue of the Saga, it introduces the SW galaxy and it's characters. The plot of TPM itself is of little significance to the overall story, so if you don't pick up certain things there's no harm done.

    The title is Star WARS.

    Exactly! so what is better:

    start with war and end with politics? or start with politics and end with war?

    Primarily, your meant to see the introduction through the eyes of a niave and idealistic young man;

    Luke Skywalker.


    Yes, it will be different. But you will be aware how Luke's story arc resembles Anakin's, and you will fear that he will suffer the same fate as his father. Less surprise, more suspense.

    Second; With someone of Alec Guiness's calibre, wouldn't it better set the tone of an introduction to the force, the sad story of Darth Vader, the betrayal of the Galactic Republic, and the beginnings of true Rebellion as the villians complete the ultimate weapon.

    I love hearing Obi-Wan's monologue in ANH nowadays, with the context of TPM and AOTC in mind. It makes it visual. ROTS will make it even more intruiging.

    As for the Force: In ANH it's explained flat out. In the Saga it becomes a mystery story arc that starts with Qui-Gon's weird techno-babble in TPM, and ends with Yoda's wonderful spiritual speech in ESB. Fine with me.

    Wether the 70's or the new Millenium, if the intro had a theme where an integalactic Jesus got killed by a space faring Satan, I think it would have generated a more negative responce from the first time viewers.

    Yeah, but at least there wouldn't have been confusion about the viewing order. :p

    Ep4 is a stand alone movie, that introduces everything, and gives a message of hope.

    Yes, it works wonderful that way, but it's interesting to see that every other episode (not only PT) has been complicated by that fact.

    Ep1 is a 'clone' of the themes of what introduced viewers to the Star Wars saga in the first place

    Catch the drift? ;)
  17. SHB-JR Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2000
    star 4
    My kids- 4,5,6 - then with me out of the room for the first half 1,2,3- I don't care what GL says, he's always chopping and changing his mind anyhoo, what today carbs are good for you, tommorrow they aren't, first SW is Lukes story now it's Anakins, yesterday coffee was bad, today a gallon a day prevents cancer, today eggs are good, tommorrow bad- uuh uuh- the words of George 'oooh it's that a good idea suddenly and can we put a Cgi hat on that?' Lucas aren't good enough for me ! :D

    I know good from bad and I'll be using SW to teach them that-as an example of 'how things aren't always what you expected, and how good things don't ever last'
    ;) :p 'And always eat your greens, they help you remember things when you get old !'

    Others have covered the more rational story-telling reasons for 4-6 then 1-3,most notably Darth_Sillyname- kudos- I'm just gonna state the quality emotional reasons. 4-6 are SW at it's best- why not start them on the best and go from there ?

    SHB JR
  18. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    SHB, as explained in my initial post, Lucas is sticking with the Saga concept that's been announced to the public 24 years ago.

    I wouldn't call that whimsical.

    What did you expect that the PT would be about? Farmboy Luke's adventures?

    (That's actually what I thought in 1980 ;))
  19. Darth-Seldon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2003
    star 6
    1-6 is the only way for the future to watch it!
    There is so much suprise and drama added to the saga.
    You have all this suspense when watching OT of what will happen, how will they find out? You will think that Luke may turn. You will think Yoda went nuts, Obi-Wan's death will have you screaming with Luke. The final moments of ROTJ will have so much meaning. It will fit perfect.
  20. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    I don't know about that Seldon, I'll let you know when I've actually seen it. :p

    BTW SHB, there seems to be a misunderstanding: Anakin is the main character of the Saga, but the OT episodes are still about Luke, as much as they were before. So I'd rather call this an expansion than a change.
  21. SHB-JR Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2000
    star 4
    "BTW SHB, there seems to be a misunderstanding: Anakin is the main character of the Saga, but the OT episodes are still about Luke, as much as they were before. So I'd rather call this an expansion than a change. "

    That's not what Uncle George *used* to say back in the early eighties when the PT was noting but a small note book of *ideas*, rather than the all 'encompassing vision' (TM) that LFL would have you believe now. GL would discuss ALL his characters and never ONCE prior to TPM did the saga get called Anakins story rather than Lukes ! I was there, and old enough to remember what was said and how ! So rather than 'an expansion', it's the addition of a new idea ! Hmm looks like I lost a post that I wrote before this one......... it told me it was there...... the one about cake.... never mind....

    Anyhoo my point is this: No matter GL's intentions- which have changed over time IMHO, no matter what he wants to us us faithful to believe, the execution of the saga has failed to meet his intentions and they work better 4-6 then 1-3. You can do it any way *you* like by I've already introduced it to people the way it *works*.

    Who am I to do that!?!? They guy who paid for my videos and DVD's and furthermore ME! :D

    GL is an artist, he can tell me till the cows come home what is art means and how to view it- but as the viewer I'll take whatever message the art imparts to me- if it's at odds with what the artist meant, maybe he didn't do quite the job he intended! Actually watching OT first he did a better job! Unintentional genius, the best kind!

    Give me quality then the rest. Give me choice or death,Give me choco- chip or rocky road !

    Give me OT then, some of the PT !

    SHB JR :D
    Who'll keep doing it OT first, to his kids, the cat friends neighbours, old people, policemen, nurses etc etc etc
  22. Helmet Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2001
    star 5
    no matter what he wants to us us faithful to believe, the execution of the saga has failed to meet his intentions and they work better 4-6 then 1-3.

    Not to me, in fact I like the PT just as much as I like the OT.

    You can do it any way *you* like by I've already introduced it to people the way it *works*.

    Please don't speake for me.


  23. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    ...Let's not involve the individual quality of the episodes in this...

    SHB, don't get me wrong, I don't believe in the myth of the all 'encompassing vision'

    But ever since 1980 we knew that there would be 3 episodes that take place before 'ANH'...and it doesn't take a genius to figure out that Luke wouldn't play a major role in those.

    Hence "You have been warned" ;)
  24. SHB-JR Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2000
    star 4
    SHB : "
    You can do it any way *you* like by I've already introduced it to people the way it *works*. "

    Helmet "Please don't speake for me."

    LOL!!

    Did ya miss the part of my post where I said this is how *I* do it? And how *I* think it works ? Hence I can't be speaking for you, so you can relax again. :) I don't know you and can't do your voice, so I wouldn't speak for you- that is how posting tends to work, you state your opinion and hope that *everyone* realises your expressing *your* thoughts! But one doesn't have to qualify it all the time!
    So ! :p

    Yeah I get the point Plo_Koen- this isn't another OT/PT thread, but I honestly feel it works better this way round. So the warning is almost moot.

    BTW I said that- not Helmet, in fact Helmet is in no way associated with this post, unless he wants to be, and even then I didn't say it! LOL

    SHB JR


  25. Plo_Koen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2001
    star 4
    Yeah, but my "quality" statement was directed at Helmet, so now he's still associated with your post, and it's a big mess now. :_|

    :p

    So what is this thread about?


    evolution...


    When all 6 episodes are available on DVD, more and more people will watch them in chronological order, until people have forgotten the time that 'Star Wars' was OT/PT, or only a Trilogy, or only a movie, or only a sparkle in Lucas' eye... and believe it or not, but there will be people who are gonna enjoy it just as much we did, but in a way that we will never experience, and that is impossible to fathom for us.

    So instead of acting all elitist and thinking I'm lucky to have seen it the "holy" order, I think it's more interesting to look at it from the perspective of those future generations. :)

    So the warning is almost moot.

    But at least it was courteous. ;)
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