PT "You have hate, you have anger but you don't use them"

Questions:
1. Do Anakin starts to use his anger and his hate against Count Dooku?
2. Is this part of the plan to attract Anakin to the dark side ? Count Dooku taunting Anakin to use his hatred and anger? Even if Count Dooku knows he will be killed by Anakin?
3. What are the sources of hatred and anger of Anakin ? He is afraid that he will loose Obi Wan ,
as he lost his mother, because he is not powerful enough with the Force?
He is afraid that he will also loose Palpatine, because he is not powerful enough with the Force?
Obi Wan and Palpatine are closest to the father Anakin did not had.
He is afraid of other things?

If you think Anakin used his hate and anger to defeat Count Dooku, does this lead Anakin to think,later, that he lost his mother because he did not used the dark side of the Force?
Does he thinks that if he will use the dark side of the Force, he will be able to save Padme from "certain death"?

 

Yes. That's how come he wins.

Dooku's been told by Palpatine for the last two and a half years that they're going to turn Anakin. After several battles, Anakin finally does, but he doesn't know that he will not join them as Ventress had in the past. Palpatine lied to Dooku saying that he would stop him from killing him.

Dooku was told to eliminate Obi-wan in order to spark the outburst. Anakin's attachment is why he does it.

Yep, because once he's learned about the dark side and used it freely, he and Palpatine can then work together to figure out what Darth Plagueis did.

 

1. Yup. Ties into Palpatine later telling Anakin his anger "gives him focus". Anakin knows this at least is true because he beat Dooku by focusing his negative feelings toward Dooku.
2. Yes, Dooku was to try and kill Obi-Wan, get Anakin vengefully angry about his two Master's (Obi-Wan and Palpatine) predicaments, then if Anakin bested him Anakin has passed their test. Dooku thought he would be spared and taken prisoner, later to be released by Palpatine's corrupt courts/Senate.

3. Afraid of change, afraid of loss. Dooku represents the dangerous instability in the galaxy that Anakin seems to bring on himself to stop. And he has a personal grudge against Dooku, so the anger in his fighting style... and then killing him out of hate... comes easier. And like you said, he is threatening the lives of people very dear to Anakin. The war is a constant stress, Dooku has struck at the core of the Republic; Coruscant - currently Anakin's, his surrogate family's, Palpatine's, and his wife's, home planet. He needs to be the most powerful to make things "right" for everyone. From his perspective.

 

I looked again and Count Dooku exchanges some looks with Palpatine.
Maybe Palpatine lied to Dooku, that he might needed to be killed, but Palpatine will later resurrect Dooku using his dark side powers.
Because Doooku looks with a questioning expression at Palpatine when he tells Anakin to kill Dooku.
And Palpatine makes a sign with his head towards Dooku,like "everything will be fine,do not worry".

 

Cut from the film was this exchange.

PALPATINE: "Kill him. Kill him now."

DOOKU: "But you promised me immunity."

PALPATINE: "I lied."

Christopher Lee felt that Dooku wouldn't say anything and Lucas agreed with him and so we only see the shocked look on Dooku's face. He had no clue that he was going to be killed.

"Palpatine has told Dooku. 'I have somebody who I think will be a great Sith Lord and I think we can get him to join us. But we need to test him. So we're going to setup a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test. If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready.' But behind it, obviously, is Palpatine's real intention: If Anakin is good enough, Anakin can kill Dooku and become Palpatine's new apprentice. But he didn't tell Dooku that."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 41.

 

Dooku is using Sith tactic of Dun Moch trying to get Anakin to over engage and lose his cool while also testing to see if he can use the rage.

Sith Lords don't just have emotional bursts and use that as fuel that energy and passion must be disciplined to be applied effectively.

Which is what Dooku is testing.

 

As per the novelisation, it also has the benefit (to Dooku) of making Anakin realise mid-fight how much anger he's been bottling up and repressing and suddenly he finds himself consciously worrying about it instead which interferes with his fighting. Of course where it goes wrong for Dooku (and exactly as Sidious intended) is that Anakin decides to stop fighting his emotions and use them instead.

 

I don't think it stems this deep, it wasn't mentioned in the novelization atleast. I think Dooku taunts Anakin, who already has bad blood with the dude, and just like he and Sidious planned Anakin unleashes his emotions and is a powerhouse. As others have mentioned, Sidious promised Dooku he wouldn't be killed, that Anakin would be brought under both of their wings as Ventress had in TCW. Anakin believes he lost his mother not because he did not use the Darkside of the Force, but because he wasn't powerful enough to defeat Death itself. IIRC, he's also pretty angry at the Jedi and his responsibilities with them, as he had been having the nightmares about Shmi for over a month but could not go to her because of his training.

He only thinks he will be able to save Padme by using the Darkside once Palps promises him that. When talking in her rooftop terrace after his first nightmare of Padme, he's not thinking "oh ****, I'll have to become a Sith Lord now.." he's just grasping at straws in frustration; not having a real answer as to how he will save her, but just rejecting the idea of losing her altogether. It's only once they are reunited on Mustafar that we see Anakin truly believes this is way to save her life.

"Love won't save you, Padme. Only my new powers can do that..."

 

This is the kind of thing that really makes me question how much the novelization is really faithful to GL's intentions. I mean, based on Lucas's own explanation of what Sidious has told Tyranus about the situation, it seems pretty clear that Tyranus is simply following his master's orders: trying to encourage Anakin to use his hate and anger, not in an attempt to trip him up and make him lose, but to test him and see how well he can utilize those things, to see if he's ready to be a Sith yet.

 

it seems like a double-edged sword. encouraging the opponent to use their anger and hate (or taunting them about it) kind of becomes the test. either they do use it and approach turning (test passed); or they are disturbed by it and it puts them off their game (test failed). either way it benefits the sith fighting them generally.

and i mean dooku is trying to win i assume; if he were going easy on anakin, it's not an effective test.

although now i've confused myself since vader was going easy on luke in ESB. he declared luke beaten and said "don't make me destroy you." obviously you can't turn your potential inductee if you kill him first.

 

I certainly agree with you that Dooku was legitimately trying to win (because otherwise what kind of a test would it be?). But he also had a job to do, and that was to rile up Anakin as much as he could so he and Sidious could feel him out.

As to that last part, well, it's a bit of a different situation because Dooku and Anakin are more evenly matched than Vader and Luke are in TESB. But I think that, just like Vader with Luke, Dooku would have stopped short of killing Anakin if he defeated him, since his master told him not to. Kind of ironic, actually, that Dooku likely would have shown Anakin more mercy than Anakin ultimately showed him.

 

poor anakin only sees dooku as worth his blade, not knowing he will one day be in the same position.

 

3. Revenge. He cut off Anakin's arm and defeated him, so Vader tapped into those feelings of evening the score.

Dooku is a just a remarkable fool for believing he wouldn't be betrayed. He tried to overthrow his master, himself,(using Ventress as his assassin) why would he not expect the same?Especially as a Sith. That's like, Sith school 101.

And I love how blatant Sidious gets with his disregard for Jedi or even just civil ways.
"I shouldn't it....It isn't right"
"He's a Separatist leader, Anakin, and a Sith Lord. We have to end this dissidence that is ripping apart this galaxy. We have to bring this war to an end and reform the Republic. We cant count on another chance."
"VENGEANCE!!!BLOODLUST!!!DO IT!!"
LOL Clearly Palpatine got overly excited about acquiring the strongest Jedi on his side.

 

It's simply called taunting.

 

IU please.

 

In and out. It's just taunting. Not some secret Sith technique with some BS name.

And some wonder why they had to get rid of the EU...

 

It's cool and gives depth, specific to Sith in general.

Anyway I don't come to the Prequel forum to debate the EU.

 

You could certainly say he's a fool. But, part of being a Sith is having a vastly inflated view of your own worth. Dooku thought he was so talented and so indispensable that Sidous couldn't possibly afford to get rid of him yet.

Vader thought the same thing when he brought Luke to be turned by the Emperor. He thought the Emperor would keep both him and Luke around long enough that they could eventually team up and overthrow him.

 

Making something exclusive is not synonymous with depth or "coolness". Specially when it's factually not something exclusive to anyone.

 

why do you think that? (i really disagree)

 

Why else would he be bringing Luke to the Emperor to be turned? You think Vader was committing suicide? No, he realized he'd failed to turn Luke himself, and needed the Emperor's help to do it instead. After that, it's the same plan as before: Team up with Luke to overthrow the Emperor and rule the galaxy as father and son.

This is explicitly how Lucas explains it in the story conference transcripts in the The Making of Star Wars: Return of the Jedi.

 

i just can't buy that Vader wouldn't know what the Emperor would do. and after already seeing it in RotS, it's practically unbelievable. Vader is not an idiot.

ohhhhhh i just remembered what this centers on. he told luke that the emperor is his master now; not that he vader would be luke's master. it's like he's sending luke into slavery to his master (his role).

although i guess he could imagine some transition period since his role is to go around the imperial fleet and bully everyone into submission, while luke is being trained.

i guess i also thought he was much less arrogant than to think he is so important to the emperor. he's not young anymore and he paid a huge price for the arrogance he had in his youth.

 

He's still a Sith, though. Like I said before, you can't be a Sith without also being massively arrogant at the same time. It's a philosophical impossibility. So yes, as hard as it may be to believe, Vader truly didn't anticipate the Emperor disposing of him that quickly, even though he'd seen the same thing happen firsthand with Dooku. It's the same old story: "I'm different. It's not going to happen to me." It sounds foolish from the outside looking in, but that can said of a great many lies people have been commonly telling themselves since the dawn of civilization. The only alternative would be for Vader to admit that he was going to die and there was absolutely nothing he could do about it; and who wants to admit that? It's much easier and more psychologically palatable for him to delude himself about the reality of the situation, just as Dooku did.

And yes, he tells Luke that the Emperor will be his master, because that's true. If the Emperor turns Luke, it'll be the Emperor who retains the most influence over him. Vader is banking on the fact that he can poach Luke back to his side, but for the moment Vader really does have no choice but to obey his master and pay proper tribute to him. Even as he plots against him, Vader is in a very real sense still the Emperor's slave. Even his plots to overthrow his master must fit within the dimensions of the cage the Emperor keeps him in, because Vader is completely at the Emperor's mercy at all times.

 

I think Dooku thought Sidious would want to continue the support for the separatists.
But Sidious wanted to kill anyone who knew that he was involved with the separatists and did not trusted him enough.
Remember that Count Dooku actually tells Obi Wan , in AOTC that Darth Sidious is a Sith Lord and proposes him to overthrow Darth Sidious.
Is pretty Count Dooku does not agrees with the cruelty and dictatorial rule of Darth Sidious.
So, I am thinking that one of the reasons Count Dooku is replaced with Anakin and not both are kept, is that Anakin have a lot of trust in Darth Sidious
and agrees with a cruel, dictatorial rule,as Darth Sidious wants to impose.

 

Dooku has overrated himself, and taunted Anakin as if he can't do anything.