You know what line pisses me off in SbS?

Wow... uhm...

G12?

Compare a couple in the Chicago suburbs making a combined $400,000 a year who have no concept of family and neglect their kids while they go skiing for a week...

WTF?!? I hope you don't feel that couples in the Chicago suburbs make a combined $400,000 a year. My parents dont. I dont. None of my friends do, or their familes. Actually, I would be lucky if my family made a combined $80,000 (combined means my sister, myself, my mother, my father)...

Mastage:

...she summarily dismisses their gods as non-existant! Not only is she a trained diplomat,....To have her say that is simply irresponsible!

Come on! I would dismiss their "gods" quicker than she did! These monsters have killed her son (and he is dead) destroyed countless number of worlds, destroyed the Republic she worked so hard to reinstate (some could argue that the republic destroyed the republic...) Of course she should dismiss these gods.

Darthparth:

The fact that she is a diplomat and lived and dealt with so many different cultures is another very not-so-subtle allegory to our world.

Well, as DL pointed out, why be diplomatic when diplomacy has utterly failed and is useless. To hell with them.

Everyone else:

This isnt the forum for religious remarks towards any earthly faith. Just my opinion though. Have a good one.

[EDIT 1 & 2: typo]

 

Hello again, Jedi Ben...

A trip to the pub with a mate considerably delayed my response.

LoL, I completely understand how those can go

You seem to see the leaders as being in a position to determine the wholesale beliefs of the YV as a whole, hence remove or betray their leaders to solve the problem.

Absolutely! I believe it is mentioned in the books somewhere (possibly Rebirth) that Shimmra actually converses with the Yuuzhan Vong Gods. Then is it not logical to assume that YV dictums and cultural habits passed down through generations find its origin from these leaders?

And if circumstances so extraordinary were to arise allowing the hierarchal foundation of the Yuuzhan Vong society to supplant its leaders, why is it not possible to also usurp these common beliefs? Afterall, the premise of current beliefs lie with the scarless Shamed Ones on a "lower footing." If the Shamed Ones - traditionally considered inept - are capable of usurping power from leaders in some fashion, surely the Yuuzhan Vong must, at the very least, question those traditional beliefs which place Shamed Ones subservient to others.

I don't believe this is simplistic at all either. If those traditionally considered the very scum of society manage to destroy its leaders, that society is now left questioning its traditions. The very ideas and beliefs which allowed the previous leaders to continue on a caste-like higher footing must be re-examined.

It may have once been fanned by leaders and may still be, but it has gone beyond being the product of any leader. Taking out the leader of such a society would not remove the racism.

Certainly, this is a valid point you make. But once our heroes aid the Shamed Ones in removing their leaders, confrontation is surely not required. Confrontation will only exacerbate the situation actually. At this point, the biggest healer of widespread racism among the Yuuzhan Vong is time. And only time.

Say the NR do decide to try to incite a SO uprising and ask Jacen to try and persuade them, would Jacen do it, knowing many SOs would die as they would be outnumbered by the other castes, even if they decided to use guerilla warfare to even the odds?

A couple of points here. At this point, I believe Leia is correct in saying that the New Republic ceases to exist now. So I would rather substitute the term "our heroes" for the NR. Secondly, who said anything about a Shamed Ones' uprising? Sure, that is a possibility, but then again, who said anything about Jacen suggesting it? Maybe Jacen instills a drive for equality into a group of Shamed Ones and they decide to do the rest. Or maybe Jacen simply suggests a much more undercover approach in assassinating a few select YV leaders. Or, Jacen suggests a more diplomatic approach in working with our heroes. Since the Shamed Ones contribute in many different fashions to the Yuuzhan Vong conquest for domination, they can sabotage operations much more secretly. All the while staying in diplomatic contact with our heroes. There exist countless other possibilities both serving the idea of diplomacy and Jacen's pacifism.

 

About god: The existance of god or gods is just an excuse of those who can´t take responsibility for their own lives and failures. There is always the need for a greater power, who has control over their lives.

About respect: Contrary to major beliefes and political correctness, respect is a two-way door. I have no problems with respecting others, but i expect the same for myself. Nobody with his sane senses, who respects nothing and nobody else with exception of those like him, can expect to be respected by those he depises.

And if i´m forced to fight in a war i haven´t started for my very survival, i will do everything to win and to hell with the others.

About diplomacy: It needs one to start a war, but two to end it. And since the Vong are on the winning path, why should they stop now?

 

Lancejade...
"WTF?!? I hope you don't feel that couples in the Chicago suburbs make a combined $400,000 a year."

Couples in the Chicago suburbs do make a combined $400,00 easily. Oak Brook, Hinsdale, Naperville are communities which have such families. And yes, they also contain dysfunctional rich ones. Chicago and the prosperous suburbs, unfortunately, seem to have the rather negative title of being the "Child Neglect Capital of the World." And it's not all because of the poor, either. The suburbs are home to some rather high profile cases of neglect by rich families over the past few years.

 

I am not sure where to begin, but I do have to make a comment about some of the stuff I have been reading. First off, I feel that everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. As a Christian and Boy Scout I feel offended by some of the remarks being stated here.

I have to say that I am tired of hearing everyone bash the Boy Scouts for their stance on homosexuality. I agree with their policy, but does that make me a homophobe as they have been called? No. How is not allowing homosexual men to be a leader with the Boy Scouts different from not allowing straight men to be leaders with the Girl Scouts? This is a double standard against straight males, but I guess in today's society it is becoming more and more accepted to discriminate aganist the majority in order to be PC. (ie, the John Rocker incident. I guess it is ok to call someone a "hick, red-neck or hill-billy" for them saying insensitive remarks). Has anyone called the GS sexual discriminators? No. Why not?

 

DDJ- I have to agree with you. It does seem hypocritical for people condemning someone for saying insensitive remarks to use "racial" and insensitive stereotypes to denounce them. Last time I checked, hick, red-neck and hilly-billy are all sterotypes of whites from the south. I didn't hear anyone saying anything about that or calling for any apologies to be given to the whites in the south. That didn't happen and will never happen because, like DDJ said, "in today's society it is becoming more and more accepted to discriminate aganist the majority in order to be PC." A double-standard.

 

Ahhh, I do believe I see what you have in mind Vergere.

You're suggesting a more long term approach: Prove the leaders are wrong and the doctrines associated with them will be re-examined as a reslt. In turn that may lead to a process of societal transformation wherein the SOs predicament is undone.

An intriguing proposal. I'm afraid I remain sceptical of whether it will happen. It seems to assume the Vong survive and hang, although perhaps not. Perhaps the Vong are simply ejected from the galaxy having been allowed to repair their worldships, in which case what you say could happen over time.

Yet I'm not so sure that time heals all wounds if people do not want the wound to be healed. It is possible to marshall all manner of arguments against racism but if a person is irrationally determined to hold onto their hatred, they will not hear or be receptive to such argument. The reason confrontation occurs is because all the more rasonable options have been used to no avail. It is possible the Vong see Shimmra defeated as the Gods withdrawing their favour and continue much in the way they have done, thus the people find a way to ensure their societal practices remain unchanged.

I do quite like your idea, but I'm sceptical because racism remains prevalent even in the supposedly advanced societies of the West. Look at Northern Ireland: The arguments for abandoning sectarianism have been made time and again, the people want peace, the economy improves with peace; but a hard core of extremists on both sides goes around killing people while their political representatives fan the flames of sectarianism. Eaxch side further incubates the hate in the successor generation thus the doctrines of sectarianism do not die with one generation but keep on going. I see the majority Vong's view of the SOs to be similar self-reinforced, but the minority extremists is the majority. Actually given that the Vong seem a more violent and less reasonable people than humans, the NI example has a greater chance of being the case for the YV due to the lack of reason and embracing of violence.

Reply if you like but it may be we're at the point where we have to agree to differ on or optimist-pesssimist views.

Jedi Ben

 

Hello again, Jedi Ben... Just a few comments here -

An intriguing proposal. I'm afraid I remain sceptical of whether it will happen.

Fair enough. I'm skeptical of my own theories at times

I agree with you in the respect that racist attitudes pervade a society throughout the generations. You have a valid argument there with the NI example even though there exist some differences as they exist with any analogy.

Well I suppose that's all I really have to add

 

Well, no analogy is pefect.

Oh, wow, I'm surprised. Look at this we've got an NJO fan and an NJO critic debating in a civil fashion.

I think we both desreve a round of congrats! Nice work Vergere.

I was hoping you'd come up with some solution for SW to use but some evils are just too nasty. I really liked your solution for the SO-YV problem though.

We'll do this again elsewhere at some point on some other topic, see you there!

Jedi Ben

 

Ditto! Looking forward to the opportunity to do it again