You Served My Father During the Clone Wars???

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by MASTER-OF-EVIL, Apr 22, 2007.

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  1. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    I'll have to go back and re-watch that Luke meets Ben scene. Who knows, maybe Lucas had ILM throw in a couple 'o empty bottles in the background of his hutt for the Special Edition re-release. :p What would have been really funny to me is if R2 found Kenobi on his own, while the former was passed out on a pile of old Jedi Robes. Imagine the loose-wire jokes we would've heard right then!

    The only service that Kenobi did under Bail was in filling the air of the Tantive IV with expletives whenever his glass was close to empty.
  2. Darth_Davi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2005
    star 4
    I submit this as a possible explanation...Bail didn't quite tell Leia the truth about Kenobi. In the 20 years after Leia's birth and ANH, we know Palpatine engaged in a smear campaign against the Jedi. Bail, in his role in the rebellion, but pretending to be a loyal Senator of the Empire, might not brag about his Jedi friend so much. Leia's message does not mention the fact that Kenobi is a Jedi Master. She may not have known who Obi-Wan Kenobi truly was. Bail misinforming Leia about Kenobi's true role in the Clone Wars may have been attempting to protect Leia her entire life. So, he invented a little story about how Kenobi served under him as just a military person, leaving his role as Jedi out of the story.
  3. Obi-Chron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2003
    star 4
    Another "certain point of view" error of omission, which really equated to "I didn't think you need to know (or couldn't handle) the truth!"
  4. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    I don't think it's a certain point of view at all. Let's look at what we know. The Jedi served the Republic for a long time. During the Clone Wars, Bail Organa was one of the Senators who didn't really favor the war and perfered to serve the ideals of peace and democracy. The Jedi also believe in that as well. They both shared similar ideals on what they should be doing, as opposed to what they were doing. So when you take that fact and combine it with what we know, it isn't a point of view or omission. It is a statement of fact. The Jedi served the Republic and Bail Organa is one of the last vistages of the Old Republic. And Bail Organa is the only person who knows where Obi-wan is and more importantly, who he is. So when Leia's speech begins with "Years ago you served my father during the Clone Wars", this is Obi-wan's way of knowing that this is Leia. And that Bail is summoning him to come help.
  5. Obi-Chron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2003
    star 4
    My point being that Bail did not tell Leia who Obi-Wan really was, or why he was really so vitally important in the Clone Wars (Grievous, Geonosis, Dooku, Qui-Gon, etc.). No, Obi-Wan is just a general. The truth is portioned, selective, precisely measured.

    Jedi were outlaws, so Leia cannot know Obi-Wan's true identity in order to protect herself. The fact that she is carrying stolen DS plans is bad enough. In regard to Kenobi, she has little or no idea what she is about to get herself into. Were it not for a determined little droid, she'd either be dead or on trial before Palpatine's kangaroo court, who likely would've figured out eventually who she really was. Then the pooduu would have really hit the fan.

    Luke may have been dueling his sister instead of or along side his father had the worst happened and Kenobi, Solo, Chewie and Luke didn't come (by accident) to Leia's rescue.

  6. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    :cool:

    And that about sums it up for me on this one, folks.
    Chron put this baby to bed and tucked it in all nice and cozy...
  7. LordVader66 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2005
    star 4
    I disagree with Obi-Cron. Leia did know Obiwan was a Jedi. Only the Jedi were Generals in the Clone Wars. The fact that she couldn't handle not knowing for her own safety is unrealistic. I just chalked it up to her sending a first transmission to Obiwan. He's old and he's been out in the desert for a 20 years. There has been no contact between them. She just wants to make sure Obiwan know's she Bail's daughter. She is now the Senator for her planet. And the Jedi did serve the Senate in the Clone Wars anyway. If you really want to get into why she said it like that was because in ANH the Clone Wars happened 40 years earlier, she was not a Skywalker. Bail may have been a senator that never had a relationship with Obiwan and they knew of each other only by reputation. With all the other continuity issues in ANH, this is the last thing I'm worried about.
  8. Darth_Davi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2005
    star 4
    Only Jedi were generals? Based on what?
  9. LordVader66 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2005
    star 4
  10. Obi-Chron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2003
    star 4
    All Leia knows is that the Jedi are outlaws. She never actually meets Ben in ANH -- just see's him undone by Vader as she rushes toward the Falcon. Otherwise, she is totally quiet on the subect. In fact, she never sees Luke use their father's saber in ANH and again in TESB until he actually comes to rescue them on Bespin and deflects Boba's laser fire with it as she's being led away with Han's carbon frozen bodkin.

    Oh, sure. He has the saber hanging on his belt. But in ANH and TESB Leia never sees Luke use it. Then she starts to figure things out when she picks him up off of the antenna array with one hand missing. After that, Luke is talking Jedi talk. Leia is still silent on the subject.

    In ROTJ, Luke uses his saber to rescue his friends from Jabba's barge. When she and Luke have their family 'heart to heart' in the Ewok villiage, she knows Luke has a power, one she 'claims' she can never have. But Luke plays the denial perfectly, and Leia touches, then comes to acknowledge 'her true self.' Only then does she fully understand what her adoptive father had gotten her into when he sent her on a mission vital to the Rebellion to find an old general named Obi-Wan Kenobi on the desert planet of Tatooine. Then, and only then.
  11. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The Jedi Knights and Masters were all Generals. The Padawans were Commanders and Lieutenants. Anakin was Lieutenant Skywalker for about six months until Muunilist, where he was made into Commander Skywalker. Obi-wan, Yoda, Mace and many others were all Generals starting on Geonosis.

    Leia was already an outlaw herself, being in the Alliance. So if Bail had told her who exactly General Kenobi was, then she would know that he's a Jedi. During the time between ANH and TESB, she knows all about Luke and Obi-wan being Jedi. They've worked together and she's seen him train privately, from time to time.

    BTW, Luke didn't deflect blaster bolts from Boba Fett. He doesn't start that up again until ROTJ, not counting the unseen portions of Luke's training with Yoda, in TESB.
  12. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    The question is (I think at least):
    Did Leia really know that General Kenobi was a Jedi Knight BEFORE she sent the message? [face_thinking]
  13. Darth_Davi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2005
    star 4
    Where in any of the films does it state that the Republic only used Jedi for generals? Can you perhaps be a little more specific than "the films"?
  14. Veloz Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2004
    star 6
    I agree.

    For all we know, Bail could have just told Leia that Obi Wan was a general during the Clone Wars, hence why she starts with "General Kenobi..."

    Edit: Obi_Chron =D=
  15. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2004
    star 5
    After watching that scene again, look at Obi-Wan's reaction. Its kinda of one of amazement and puzzlement. Could it be he was thinking, "Clone Wars, Father ?, did Bail tell her Anakin was her father ? Oh no, how do I explain this to Luke ? "
  16. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I knew that scene was going to confuse someone... :confused:

    Obi-Wan didn't "serve" Anakin during the Clone Wars. And there is no ambiguity as to who Leia means when she says her "father" at that point.

    BTW, it should be noted that in Foster's ANH novel, the line is "you served the Old Republic in the Clone Wars." Too bad that wasn't used in the film...
  17. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2004
    star 5
    I knew that scene was going to confuse someone...

    It doesnt confuse us that saw the movies as they were released, but I can see how someone seeing Star Wars for the very first time, in Episode order, can very well get the above impression. Especially if for what ever reason, that person missed the 4 seconds, 3 short lines of Bail's in ROTS "My wife and I will take the girl. We've always talked of adopting a baby girl. She will be loved with us. ":oops:
  18. LordVader66 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2005
    star 4

    We never see any non Jedi lead clones. I have never read anything from EU that shows a non Jedi leading clones or being refered to as a General in the Clone War. Though by no means have I read enough during that era to claim to be an expert. Perhaps darth-sinister could enlighten us on that fact. I am aware Tarkin served in the clone wars, but I do not believe people like him were being called Generals.
  19. Darth_Davi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2005
    star 4
    so, in otherwords, you are completely backtracking from your previous statement. Just because Lucas and authors don't include something doesn't preclude it from happening. There aren't any Ewok Jedi either, does that automatically imply that Ewoks don't have midichlorians? No, it just means nobody has felt the need to include an Ewok Jedi in a story. Star Wars, and the EU in general, are Jedi-centric (with the exception of the X-Wing series, but even then, it has a soon-to-be-Jedi protagonist in Corran Horn) and the stories focus primarily on what Jedi are doing. It doesn't go into detail about everyone else. Based on the amount of Clones, it seems unlikely that every Jedi would automatically be given the rank of General, there would have to be some promotion to the rank based on actual merit. Nobody is going to make you a General to lead your troops if you suck at leading troops. So, not every Jedi would have been a General. By the Geonosis battle, they already had 1.2 million Clones...the few Jedi they had would have been overwhelmed trying to manage an army that big. It would have required a far bigger support system than the Jedi could muster. Basically, to support an army that big, you would need more Generals than the Jedi could provide. They had to have non-Jedi Generals, from a sheer logistical standpoint.
  20. LordVader66 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2005
    star 4
    I believe on Jedi Masters were Generals. Padawans and Knights were called Commanders, I think. I'd imagine there were only a few thousand Generals. By the Battle of Genosis there were 1.2 million units of clones. 1 unit is equal to a number greater than one, much greater. A galactic war would need the use of trillions upon trillions of soldiers. Each General commanded a large portion of Clones. Kenobi took enough clones to "caputure three star systems" when he went and hunted Grevious. That's millions upon millions of clones. Only one Jedi. The ratio was huge, but it worked.

    Edit: My above post was correct. However, according to the EU, you are correct about the larger point, Darth_Davi, toward the end of the war non Jedi Generals started to be used, as there weren't enough Jedi anymore. Tarkin was a general, too, actually.
  21. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The films don't really say, but the informational guides and eu confirm that the Knights and Masters were all Generals. The following is a list of confirmed Jedi Generals during the Clone Wars, circa ROTS.

    High Jedi Generals

    Agen Kolar
    Anakin Skywalker
    Coleman Kcaj
    Ki-Adi-Mundi
    Kit Fisto
    Mace Windu
    Obi-Wan Kenobi
    Oppo Rancisis
    Plo Koon
    Saesee Tiin
    Shaak Ti
    Stass Allie
    Yoda

    Senior Jedi Generals

    Arligan Zey
    Foul Moudama
    Ausar Auset
    Daakman Barrek
    Darrus Jeht
    Iri Camas
    Jmmaar
    Kai Justiss
    Luminara Unduli
    Nejaa Halcyon
    Norcuna
    Ph'ton
    Puroth
    Roblio Darté
    Roron Corobb
    Ry-Gaul
    Shon Kon Ray
    T'chooka D'oon
    T'ra Saa
    Roan Shryne
    Tyffix
    Tyr
    Wom-Nii Gnaden
    Z'meer Bothu
    Voolvif Monn

    Other Jedi Generals

    A'Sharad Hett
    Aayla Secura
    Barriss Offee
    Dass Jennir
    Echuu Shen-Jon
    Etain Tur-Mukan
    Glynn-Beti
    Kota
    K'Kruhk
    Leska
    Quinlan Vos
    Rii'ke En
    Ronhar Kim
    Saras Loorne
    Tyffix
    Xiaan Amersu


    The following are known Jedi Commanders.

    Bhat Jul
    Barriss Offee
    Anakin Skywalker
    Bultar Swan
    Whie Malreaux
    Bene


    Two of whom were promoted upon becoming Knights; Anakin and Barriss. Palpatine declared that Knights and Masters were Generals.


    Now, the Republic did have help according to the eu and what we do see in ROTS. The Republic had a defense network which was designed for the sole purpose of defending home worlds, much like we see with the Naboo Royal Guard. The US has the National Guard which can be used to become the US Army. Whiluff Tarkin, Jan Dodonna and Lorth Needa were among those who served during the Clone Wars and had military rank. The Jedi also got in touch with local resistence cells that were on worlds occupied by the Confederacy. Such cells were seen on Jabiim, Praesitlyn, Ord Cestus, Kashyyyk and Haarun Kal.
  22. Darth_Davi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2005
    star 4
    I counted 54 confirmed Jedi Generals from that list. That number seems a bit small to manage a galactic civil war, given the scale involved. We know from the films that the Jedi Generals that we see on film are on the front lines, participating. They aren't sitting back on the space cruisers leading from the back, they are leading from the front. (indeed, thats what helps make Order 66 so effective, the Jedi are right there, surrounded by Clone Troopers fighting along side them) So, the Generals were there, with the troops in every battle. With Anakin and Obi-Wan, sometimes each battle had more than one Jedi General. It just seems logical that there would be other generals besides the Jedi, otherwise there would simply be too few of them to spread out.
  23. LordVader66 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2005
    star 4
    There are clone commanders operationg below the Jedi. Frankly, I don't think that the clones really needed the Jedi. I'm sure it made life easier, but the clones were always going to be successful.
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