You think that's air you're breathing?

Discussion in 'Archive: SF&F: Films and Television' started by DVeditor, Jan 3, 2006.

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  1. Juliet316 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2005
    star 8

    Actually it was made known publicly that the original actress had died and that they had to recast her for Revolutions. However I suspect this news got lost in all the other hype around Revolutions that it probably jarred fans who didn't pau attention to it when Mary Alice (the Recast Oracle) appeared onscreen.

    :oops: I can't believe it too me this long to figure out the subject line was for The Matrix.

    I'm a bit different as I fell in love with The Matrix when it showed up on TBS, Watched most of Reloaded and haven't seen Revolutions at all.

    Here's a little known fact: the late R&B song star Aaliyah was supposed to be in the Matrix, playing the part of Niobe. The part had to be quickly recast with Jada Pinkett - Smith when Aaliyah's plan crashed in 2001.
  2. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2000
    star 6
    Here's my take on the original vs. the sequels:

    1. Reloaded and Revolutions should have been ONE 2.5 - 3 hour movie. The story is not one that breaks down particualrly well into two chapters. Reloaded doesn't end, it stops. Imagine watching the first half of the original film, pausing after Morpheus says "Welcome to the real world", and waiting six months to watch the rest of the film. That's basically what the Wachowskis did to everyone.

    2. That said, I think there's an extremely good story in there, once you get past the overindulgent fights and orgies. I felt that, while some of the philosophy was forced, there were some valid, interesting issues raised in the sequels. I'm not talking about fate and free will (that just confused me); I mean things like the issue of machine sentience and the question of whether machines that evolve to a human-like intelligence and show a capacity to feel emotion can be said to be living things. These questions weren't overtly presented in the film, but they're there, nonetheless, and I left the theatre wondering about them. If the sequels had been combined/trimmed as I suggest above, it could have been fantastic.

    3. Finally, the big thing that I think leads many people to view the sequels as failures is the fact that Reloaded and Revolutions have a fundamentally different point of view from the original. The original film is, for all intents and purposes, set in OUR world, in a city in the late 20th/early 21st century. As Neo discovers the truth about what the Matrix is, we follow that journey from the inside looking out. By the film's end, there is still an element of the Matrix being an excuse to have superpowers in what when we leave the theatre will still be the "real world". Ultimately, we are more concerned with what happens inside the Matrix than without.
    The sequels, however, have the point of view of someone who is on the outside looking in at the world/videogame that is the Matrix. The world of these films is not our world; it is the sunless future world in which humanity is forced to live in a secret city underground. And the films themselves are certainly more concerned with the fate of THAT real world. Whereas the first film was a battle for dominance within the Matrix, the sequels are about a battle for dominance in the world OUTSIDE the Matrix. Because of this, Neo is for most of Reloaded less the messiah he was in the first film and more just a really good gamer. When Neo finally shows exceptional power in the outside world (downing the sentinals with his mind), things become a great deal more interesting. Ultimately, the main conflict in the sequels is that the "real-world" machines have guns and are coming to destroy the humans in the real world, and so Neo's video game fighting skills become secondary, and at times unnecessary.
  3. droideka27 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2002
    star 7
    The matrix movies were just a little bit gross for me, so they are not anything i can watch a second time until I've mostly forgotten what it's about.
  4. DVeditor Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2001
    star 6
  5. Everton Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 18, 2003
    star 10
    Maybe she means the bit where Neo is 'awoken'.
  6. DVeditor Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2001
    star 6
    Oh, well I guess that was a bit gooey so I can see where that would be worth skipping over. :p
  7. Moleman1138 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2004
    star 6
    I didn't care for the abrupt ending at the end of Reloaded. But it's not like you had to wait another 4 years, it was only 6 months. Now I know this is a little OT, but they could've done the same thing with Goblet of Fire, split the film in half. But they didn't.

    You really couldn't have edited 263 minutes of Reloaded and Revolutions down into one 180 minute movie. There'd be no balance between what was reloaded and what revolutions.

    Realistically, you have to establish the advancement of Smith's program, the Merovingian, Seraph, Persephone, the Deux es Machina. There isn't enough time in 3 hrs. Plus the Battle of Zion and every other battle or chase or confrontation.

    I'm not fond of Revolutions, but it had to be it's own film.
  8. JediTrilobite Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 1999
    star 7
    I thought they did a decent cliffhanger for that, IMO.
  9. obi_webb Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2005
    star 4
    i thought revolutions was not too bad, but i HATED the zion battle! it was such a "look at what we can do!" thing for me.. it was just a really long sequence of guys in mech suits yelling and firing their guns at wave after wave of machines like in a bad video game.
    and i hate to say that i thought the kid that at the end that yelled, "IT'S over everybody, the war is over!" was about the most annoying actor with the most horrible delivery that i've ever seen.
    i didn't like that morpehus pretty much had no purpose in reloaded and revolutions then to stand around and look cool.
    i could go on, but i won't!:p i loved the first movie, and i liked PARTS of the other two movies all right. i just think they could have been so much more...
  10. Andalite-Bandit Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2005
    star 6
    The thing I never understood is why these advanced sentinel machines primarily relied on attacking humans and mechs by crashing into them or stabbing them with tentacles. You'd think they'd have some sort of, I don't know, guns.

    Also they could have just dropped a nuke down that hole they drilled into Zion.

    I did like a lot of the shots in the Zion battle though, especially when it was largely on fire and there were swarms of machines flying about.
  11. Rogue...Jedi Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 12, 2000
    star 7
    The first Matrix movie I really enjoyed, but Reloaded was extremely disappointing IMO. Revolutions was better, but still not nearly up to the level of the first movie.
  12. Everton Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 18, 2003
    star 10
    I've no explanation for teh guns thing, but doesn't the One have to pick so many people from Zion to restart it, thereby precluding a nuke? Or something?
  13. bgii_2000 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2005
    star 4
    I agree that the second and third movies pale in comparison to the first one. If you turned off the picture they would sound something like:

    Reloaded:

    BIF BAM POW!

    Hello. You! Yes. What?
    Hello. You don't know? No. Ah, well then...everthing happens, and when it does, you will know what it was. Woah, you're so...Wise. Yes it is true. Then...Yes. Oh.
    BIF BAM POW. BOOM.
    You can't die, I won't let you. Let's go....Wait. BOOOOM

    Credits music

    Revolutions:

    Zoom!

    Woah.

    Let us end the war. It can be ended. But we cannot listen to the leaders. They know nothing.
    echo'y sounds. Woah. Where am I? You are here. I am? Yes. I love my wife. Goodbye.
    beepbeep beepbeep beepbeep I think he's in the matrix. but he isn't. Except he is. Let's go get him out.
    BIF BAM. BIF BIF BIF OOOOOoooooowWwwwwWWwAAAAhBIFBIFBAMBAM. Heehee. I know why you are here. Yeah? Yes you want...Him. Yes. No. What? No. Let him out or I blow off your head. Heehee causality. Hee. Heeheehee. OK.
    Zoom! Neo! Trinity! Mr. Anderson. Smith. Morpheus.
    Zoom! BAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAM. You can't die. Yes I can. No! Yes! No! Yes. No! yes. NO! ye... Nooooooooo! Zoom. You're the source. Yes. What do you want? I want it. It? Yes. Smith? Yes. Ok.
    BAMBAMBAMBAMBAMBAM! Mr. Anderson. Smith. BIFBIF BAMBAM. AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH! *silence* Look a rainbow.

    Credits music.

    There isn't a shred of sensible dialog in either of those movies. I loved the highway scene in number 2 though.

  14. Everton Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 18, 2003
    star 10
    I thought the highway chase was one of the dumbest scenes in the two sequels. It's a great example of something that cursed both films (but Reloaded predominantly)... action for the sake of action.
  15. bgii_2000 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2005
    star 4
    That was the WHOLE point of both of the last two films. If you didn't see it for the action, why did you see it?
  16. weezer Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 6
    I'm probably one of the few that enjoyed Reloaded more then the first one. I thought Reloaded was by far the strongest of the series and probably one of my favorite movies of all time.

    Everything about it was just spot on IMO. Even the much balled "orgy" scene was an excelent addition. It illustrated what I felt was the over all difference between the first one and the second one. In the first they told in the second they showed. All in all Reloaded was just a tight film. Well put together from begining to end. Revolutions suffered in many ways but was overall a decent film.
  17. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    I pretty much agree with all that, weezer. I liked Reloaded a lot, and it was the Matrix as a franchise in full flight, before it crashed with Revolutions.
  18. weezer Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 6
    Right, some people felt that Reloaded went too far from what made the first one work but I felt it was everything that a sequel should be and then some.

    Unfortunately then Revolutions came along. Don't get me wrong I still enjoyed it. I thought there was still a lot that worked but what didn't work greatly outnumbered the bits of good. Admittedly I'm in the minority on that one. With as tight as Reloaded was Revolutions was incredibly sloppy. Too bad that what started so strong left such a bad taste in peoples mouths. I think that Revolutions is mostly to blame for the general lackluster reception that the Matrix receives now.

    If you are a fan I also recommend trying the Path of Neo game. Fun stuff. Its pretty impressive what you can do in terms of moves. Pretty much every move in the movie you can do in the game and link them in any number of combinations. The end was kind of silly but you get a nice little dig at the Wachowskis in before it starts ;)
  19. BobaFrank Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2001
    star 5
    I love the Matrix movies but then again I'm a sci-fi junkie. My only problem with the Matrix was Neo and Trinity dying in the end. Very Japanesey. I really wanted to see a decisive end to the war as well, not a truce. It disappointed me in the same way I was disappointed with the NJO series when the Alliance made the truce with the Vong. Also, I wanted so much to see Neo come back and kick the crap out of the Architect.
  20. obi_webb Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2005
    star 4
    i second that! that would've helped my opinion of that movie immensely!
  21. Jedi Merkurian ST Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    "i HATED the zion battle!...it was just a really long sequence of guys in mech suits yelling and firing their guns at wave after wave of machines like in a bad video game."

    QFT [face_coffee]

    Loved the first movie, especially with the "what is real?" angle. Rather enjoyed the 2nd movie. There was even a bit of self-depreciation with "He's doing his Superman thing again." I also liked the "hmm...upgrades" but how in the Nine Hells was Morpheus able to defeat an Agent, let alone an upgraded Agent? The Chatteau Battle was, IMO, one of Yuen Wo Ping's finest works. OTOH, I was *meh* about the Big Burly Brawl. The Merovingian/Persephone/Seraph storylines were interesting, and I was disappointed to see them largely dropped in Revolutions.

    The bit with the Architect was actually a rather intiguing plot twist, I thought.

    The problems I had with Revolutions were
    Too Much "Real World," Not Enough Matrix: I mean, it's the Matrix! I think they rescued Neo way too soon. That would've given an opportunity to expound on Merv, Persephone, & especially Seraph.

    Everything Was Over-the-Top: The Merovingian's nightclub, Persephone's cleavage (ok, that I didn't mind so much :p) the blood & gore during the Battle of Zion, even the music for the Battle of Zion. Moreover, the entirety of the dialog for that story arc was AAAAAAAAAA!!!!!! *blamblamblamblam* AAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!! *bangbangbangbangbang* AAAAAAAAA!!!!! And the final battle between Neo & Smith was straight outta Superman II! I half expected Hugo Weaving to say "Kneel before Smith!"

    Morpheus: "The most dangerous man on the planet" was reduced to spending a good chunk of the movie sitting next to Jada Pinkett-Smith, bouncing around & looking constipated [face_plain]

    All in all, Matrix was hella cool, Reloaded was pretty sweet, but I give Revolutions the finger.

    EDIT:
    Oh yeah, Trinity: Longest....Death....Scene....Eeeeeeeevvvvvvverrrrrr......
  22. ObiWan506 Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2003
    star 7
    [face_laugh]

    Although I will say this in defense to The Matrix. I love it because I strictly focus on the storyline mostly. I focus on what the movies truly intended; understanding choices, knowing your path, sacrifice and love. Most of that gets drowned out though with all the special effects and cool fight scenes that seem to have overtaken the last two movies. Maybe that's why people loved the first one. Because instead of having all that flashy stuff, it really came down to the basics. The genuine uniqueness and interesting storyline.
  23. ObiWan506 Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2003
    star 7
    Okay, so question. If the machines needed Neo and his 'code', why did they try to kill him through the first and second movie?
  24. Jedi_Master_Conor Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2005
    star 6
    good question. maybe in the 1st 2 movies they didn't realize his true importance until they realized that Agent Smith went rogue
  25. ObiWan506 Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2003
    star 7
    But they expect someone to step up as 'The One'. It's already happened 5 or 6 other times. They even devised a system of control by using 'The One' to restart the entire system. They need him and his code to do this. So why are they trying to kill him? I know they might not realize it, but surely they have to have some clue since all their agents keep getting beat up.

    Unless ... they expect their agents to get beat up. Giving Neo the false idea that they are still trying to kill when in fact it's just another system of control. They are making him think they are still after him, even though the machines know full well they'll be taken out by Neo.
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