ST "You will never be as strong as Darth Vader!"

But how supportive of an environment did Ben/Kylo get raised in ? I'm sure his family loved him, but...

- Han : I'm sure a loving father, but perhaps not the best father, in the sense of raising a child.As Han says , " There was too much Vader in him." ... Perhaps the Force / growing Dark Side in Ben scared him, kept him a bit distant ? Kylo alludes to this, telling Rey that Han is the surrogate father she always wanted, but she would've been disappointed.

- Leia : Involved with helping set up the New Galactric Republic and Senate. Again, not saying she wasn't a loving mother, but perhaps too involved with politics to be there for Ben when he needed her most ?

- Luke : Had a lot on his plate, in not only being the last Jedi, but tasked with resurrecting the Jedi Order. And it sounds like he really only took an active role in Ben's life once the Dark Side had already taken root, as Ben was sent to him once he started to go down the dark path.

 

I think the exacts need to be clarified (although I've gathered that the idea that Kylo defecting to the First Order being his family's fault has been debunked by the powers that be). Either way, Kylo's situation acts as a foil to Finn and Rey. They all chose their alignment and went to the opposite side of the spectrum than their past would set them up for.

 

Han is not a coward and he was never afraid of Luke. If he was afraid of Ben then because Ben gave him reason to by hurting other people. I don't think of Han as a bad father just because an immature acting villain calls him that.

As for Leia, there is no reason to think she wouldn't be there for her own son despite her career. There was a long peace period in which Ben was raised.

All these accusations on the big three only arise due to a desire to explain Kylo's ill-explained fall. I doubt the filmmakers put much thought into the how's and why's so it is really unnecessary to vilify who we know to be heroic characters.

 

^ Agree Darth_Preva. I really can't see the writers giving much thought to the finer points of Kylo's turning when so little thought went into anything else. But, at the risk of papering over cracks, we could argue that Kylo being such an unlikely candidate to turn is kind of the point. That, and the fact we can use other examples from the timeline of other unlikely light siders turning, even fully fledged, champions of the Jedi Order in some cases. So whilst I agree we shouldn't vilify the characters related to Kylo and that it's probably pointless to speculate on something the writers have most likely never given a second thought to, stranger things have happened in the Star Wars universe than the unlikely turning of Ben Solo.

 

One important point that I would like to add is that Ben Solo turned as an adult, he was well over twenty when it happened. Parents are not responsible for the deeds of their fully grown children.

 

Absolutely. And with the lack of information you can't help but speculate that the reasons for his turning are actually quite trivial, unless they reveal something more specific later on. I still find Ren to be the most interesting character, the best of a bad bunch really but he currently needs a lot of fleshing out. The whole light side turning to dark has always been one of the most interesting aspects of the SW universe for me, but a lot of the time, there has been something that has happened to a character that has caused them to turn later on, as oppose to them being essentially inherently evil like Darth Sideous, or even Count Dooku to some extent (although again, the case of Dooku is most likely the writers giving it no thought whatsoever).

Anakin had his reasons, and despite the quite ridiculous way in which he physically becomes Vader, and the whole turning happening much too quickly and easily, at least there was an attempt to explain it, albeit a very poor one. But like I said most do have their reasons so I would be surprised if there isn't a significant event in Ben's past that hasn't created the opening written in for later movies. That would make far more sense than his current either unknown, unwritten or just trivial reasons for turning.

 

His biggest fear is that he'll never be as strong as Vader? Darth Vader also had internal conflicts being pulled towards the light, and both Kylo and Snoke know his ultimate decision. So where is this strength and power that Kylo admires? Anyone else would say he betrayed the Empire, not that he was cleverly seduced by the enemy, with no fault or doing of his own. Kylo's admiration of Vader is weak, as he has no real reason to go to the darkside and isn't fueled by the same pain Anakin was. The story seems even weaker when we realize Snoke believes Kylo has equal potential of light and dark. Doesn't that mean he's training someone he knows can turn at any moment? This line can be said to Snoke, as both Kylo and Snoke seem to be a subpar Vader and Emperor duo.

 

Hope that answers your questions.

 

I miss the expanded universe....

 

You mean that you miss the unintentional hilarity of the expanded universe, right?

 

I think about that Age of Ultron quote: "But a thing isn't beautiful because it lasts" sometimes in contexts like this. There was some good stuff and it's still being kept in print, but, yeah, it's not the same. There's new good stuff now, but it's different stuff then what some of us knew and invested in.

Speaking of Age of Ultron quotes that are appropriate: "But there is grace in their failings. I think you missed that." Like anything, it had good and bad stuff, and the latter shouldn't cancel out the former.

 

"listen to ultron you must".

 

Agreed. At that, we would have words with him.

 

He didn't physically become Vader. He psychologically became Vader. He took a knee and was anointed a Sith Lord after accepting Palpatine's offer. It was quick because he needed to find a way to save Padme and there was no going back after his part in the death of Snoke--I mean Windu.

If you're talking about his becoming effed up in the duel, that duel lasted a long time and it was a plausible way for Kenobi maim him and leave him for dead.

 

^ That's your opinion Legions, one I completely disagree with. The stupid thing about Anakin's 'fall' in ROTS is that at every key juncture there are about 100 other actions he could have taken that made far more sense than the ones he did. He most certainly did physically become Vader, as in the one we know from the OT, this is fact. The whole, 'he needed to be anointed quick to save Padme' was one of the most ridiculous parts of the movie to me. For example he didn't have to cut Mace's arm off, like I said 100 things he could have done, the scene didn't work at all.

By far the worst part of the whole fall to becoming Vader, physically and psychologically, is the duel with Kenobi. I couldn't disagree more with it being a plausible outcome. I remember being in the cinema watching that scene in sheer disbelief of just how bad it was. He could have jumped off the lava flow further down and then picked up the duel from there. Simple. It's like the writers couldn't agree on anything so just went 'let's have him jump over Kenobi's head for no reason whatsoever' and then went with that because they had nothing better. It's terrible.

 

anakin did what he did because he was desperate and conflicted. worked perfectly. he jumped at obi-wan because he was reckless and overconfident. makes perfect sense.

 

^^ I take it you're joking yes? If so lol. If not, then I have to ask ; in what way did it 'work perfectly'? It doesn't work at all. Obviously he is conflicted but that doesn't mean the scene works. Debateable that he was 'desperate', Yes he has to kill Obi Wan but it's not as if he was on the back foot during the duel. So despite the duel taking quite a long time, he isn't desperate.

Again I'm guessing your 'makes perfect sense' comment is a wind up but if not I would ask again, how so? It makes zero sense, none, zilch. Anakin being reckless and overconfident is probably the most glaringly obvious aspect of his persona, but in no way makes him jumping over Obi Wan's head when he could have simply stepped off further down the ridge make any sense whatsoever. It's senseless. I reckon I am spot on with the theory that the writers just couldn't agree on a good way to turn Anakin into the Vader we know so hastily came up with the terrible scene we were left with. Possibly also due to time constraints. For me it has to be the most senseless and ridiculous scene in any of the movies, simply because there were so many other ways it could have played out.

 

You're not spot on about the writers because there were no writers--there was only GL.

You use a lot of adjectives, but you're not giving me a cogent argument. And he became Vader in Palpy's office.

 

Ah well GL then. It's easy to forget just how bad he was whilst having a go at the terrible writing in TFA.

How exactly am I not giving you a cogent argument? If you tell me what you would like me to expand upon I would be happy to do so.

As I said earlier I think, of course I understand Anakin turning into Vader in his mind. My point was that even that aspect of his fall I find to be too quick and circumstantial with too many flaws in the narrative. What I said was much worse than this was his physical turning, to which as I have explained, I find truly terribly done on every level.

 

And he wouldn't be told by anyone. Conceding wasn't in his personality by that point.

 

Wait, is there something I missed in TFA? Are you telling Jules from Pulp Fiction is really Snoke? Wouldn't it be funny if Snoke recited that classic verse from Pulp Fiction in Episode 8 to Luke & Rey:

"Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers."

 

Kind of appropriately, I seem to recall Samuel L. Jackson did in fact have 'B.M.F.'* on his lightsaber in the prequels...

But back on track, I don't think you can really blame either of Ben's parents nor Luke for Ben becoming Kylo. In the prequels a pretty important point was that whilst Anakin was being manipulated and tempted by Palpatine, every thing he did, he did of his own free will. He was never forced to make the decisions he made, he could have walked away or made another choice on several occasions. I imagine it's going to be a similar story with Ben - there will be reasons he made his choices but those choices and the consequences are on him alone.

*Well the full version which would probably contravene the forum rules to post.

 

I couldn't disagree more. Him needing Palpatine to save Padme worked perfectly. And no, there was no other way to get involved in the fight between Mace and Palpatine. You can't assume that he planned to cut off Mace's arm, there is little reason to make such an assumption. He told Mace not to strike Palpatine down, Mace refused and tried to strike, Anakin tried to stop him from doing that. That was no strike to cripple Mace, it was an attempt to block him, and the movements just led to him cutting of the arm instead. It was a snap decision to save Palpatine from being killed in this very moment. A second later Palpatine had taken out Mace, and Anakin was shocked about what just happened. He went from trying to save Palpatine because he needs him to save Padme, to being responsible for the death of Mace Windu. He helped the man behind the war - something he hated Palpatine for, as evidenced by his reaction when Palpatine tells him that he's a Sith - not only to survive, but to gain power, killing one of his masters in the process. All he had wanted was for Palpatine not to die before he could use him to save Padme, and suddenly he was responsible for the Sith taking over.

Anakin falling because of Padme, which was already set up with the death of his mother, worked perfectly. It certainly fit better to a later redemption than him falling because of lust for power or something like that.

Now, Anakin deciding to jump in the fight did look a bit odd, he easily could have stepped on the land or simply moved a bit to the side. But on the other hand, it played nicely into what was happening. He could have gone another way, but Obi Wan was doubting his powers, something that Anakin had been angry about for quite some time, see his complaint from AOTC about Obi Wan holding him back, for example. At that very moment he wasn't thinking rationally, he simply tried to show Obi Wan that he underestimated Anakin's powers, and that he didn't need Obi Wan to know what he could or couldn't do.
Could it have been done in a different way, yes, was it "very bad", "terrible" or did it "not work at all"? Not by a long-shot.

 

I found RotS very enjoyable. I liked the way Anakin turned to the dark side. And his fight with Kenobi was cool as well.
It makes 100% sense for Anakin to be arrogant and try to jump behind Kenobi.

 

I couldn't have said it better myself.