ST "You will never be as strong as Darth Vader!"

I think the device was intended to be the "mind probe", but it can easily be retconned as a general torture device.

 

It's not made totally clear, but I think it meant using the Force to probe minds... in this case, it seemed like he may have tried it in conjunction with using the interrogation droid on her.

 

kylo's nowhere close to anakin before the suit or vader after.

 

Maybe, just maybe the ranting fans created a problem:
After years of Expanded Universe and no new movie in sight, they grew old and were caught by surprise that the fantasy Star Wars in their minds was not what Lucas envisioned. Star Wars was always based on myths and fairy tales, serving a story for (big) kids and in the end, when he went back in time with the characters to show a rich backstory of the OT (and thus making the saga the rise, fall and redemption of Anakin), he naturally portrayed them younger. Yet, several fans turned against Lucas with the result that in some minds the PT is judged way worse than it deserves and Disney is playing it safe for money's sake: Bow down to the mighty OT ("You will never be as strong as Darth Vader" and several moments that ridicule Kylo including his debut when Poe mocked him) and don't dare to step out of its shadow (playing it safe is also the reason for the obvious repeated bits - so I am sure that the ranting fans have a negative effect on Lucasfilm's creativity).

It would be fine if Kylo and Snoke would surpass the hulking images of Palpatine and Vader in the next part. Kylo is intersting for sure, has cool skills and possibly the cooles saber of the saga - but he is like the dictator in the movie the interview - you don't take that kid serious as a person - you mock him and are just aware that he's got an A bomb.

I am just not sure that 2 movies are enough to make him tower over Vader because he started the way he started. I can't imagine how people would have gone crazy if Anakin would have been portrayed the way Kylo is in TFA.

 

Well no, current canon is that Vader's force potential grew after Mustafar. I also think they are aware that Vader is still a far more popular villain than Kylo Ren and will most likely remain so.

 

His potential did not grow, it was stunted but his techniques and force powers were more refined and powerful than when he was a jedi knight. Darth Vader at his prime would mop the floor with Anakin. He was roughly 80% of the emperor which is quite strong when you consider palpatine and yoda are on one level and literally every other jedi/sith are a rung below them. To be 80% of palpatine is much more powerful than Dooku or Maul ever was. They both would be curb-stomped by Palps.

 

You do know that Lucas quotes have no weight? Anyway, I don't want to engage in a long canon debate. Just read Lords of the Sith, which is canon, and come back.

 

Lucas' words have the greatest weight in regards to star wars. Period. How fan fiction can supersede the artist, I will not ever understand that because it hits simply does not make sense.

 

IIRC Lucas in one of the featurettes definetly mentioned that suit vader's lightsaber skills werent too good..

In saying that, he also said Old Obi-wan and Luke werent too good aswell.

 

Maybe she meant "strong" as in Vader could hold his liquor tremendously well, and Kylo Ren cannot?

 

I've always wondered how Rey can be so specific and so confident in this, also knows of Han Solo the smuggler and the Millennium Falcon, yet somehow thinks Luke Skywalker is a myth.

 

i'm just confused how the **** rey knows what the resistance is???

 

Vader is stronger by ANH, but he's nowhere near what he was capable of being. What Luke can do and what Palpatine and Yoda did do. But what Rey is referring to isn't so much the power of the Force, but his ability to be exactly like Vader. To have that anger, that hatred and that level of brutality that his grandfather had. To Ben, he feels inferior to his grandfather who was able to bend so easily to the dark side, whereas he couldn't as he keeps feeling the pull of the light. But the thing is that Snoke has sold Ben on a lie that Vader was absolutely ruthless and unrelenting. That he was never completely divorced from the good within him. Snoke has convinced him that will surpass Vader and never be that good man.

 

his fear is a projection. in his mind vader is the most powerful man, his grandfather did it all, he must be aspired to, because kylo/ben isn't good enough.

and because he never met vader and never knew what his powers were, he can continue to believe that. and so her unearthing that from his mind is a terrible thing. he's deeply insecure, no matter how powerful he is objectively, he doesn't believe in his own power.

anyway, that's how i read it.

 

Okay well, I guess you can say that in a way, but you must also remember that the story-group is not bound to his words in any way.

 

Remember also that Vader was the second most powerful character in the galaxy, in terms of having dominion over others' considering that the First Order aren't in charge of the galaxy, this is an important distinction; the Force power is in some ways a means to an end - until The First Order has complete control of the Galaxy, with only Snoke above him, Ren isn't as powerful as Vader. And to supercede Vader, he needs to usurp Snoke at the head of the first order. Power isn't all about who can stop the most blaster bolts.

 

Being that Rey grew up on Jakku, a planet in the sticks where many smugglers, convicts, and otherwise below-the-law salespeople frequently stop and trade parts, it's entirely logical to me that she would know who Han Solo is. I would assume she heard a lot of gossip and wild stories from smugglers at Niima Outpost, since her livelihood comes from the theft (scavenging) and bartering of old parts and pieces. The stories about Han that might have come from other smugglers would presumably either leave out or gloss over Luke, and focus on Han's escapades as a smuggler. Anything she might have heard about Luke would be watered down, especially considering that those stories would be coming from beings who barely knew squat about the Force and Jedi. Any gossip about Luke/Jedi/the Force/Sith would be preceeded with sayings like "I don't know about the Force, but...", "Nobody knows if this is true, but...", "I don't believe the Jedi/the Force exist(s), but...", etc. To the people on Jakku, smugglers are real people, because they interact with smugglers all the time. It's harder to buy that Jedi exist because nobody that Rey knows on Jakku can really attest to the Jedi's existence.

And re: Rey's sudden knowledge of Vader... The way she heard of Luke and thought of him is probably very similar to the way she knew of Darth Vader. She had probably heard the name floating around in gossip before, but never really gave much weight to it. Then, as she's fighting back Kylo's Force probe, she picks up the impression of Darth Vader from Kylo's mind, along with a sense of fear. Or something to that effect...

Not sure why I wanted to jump in on this discussion, since I like to leave the Force in a partial shroud of mystery for myself (keeps Star Wars magical for me). Lol.

 

I don't know why my quote feature isn't working but:

That's exactly how I see the scene.

 

AniLukeRey when you hit the 'reply' link at the far right bottom corner. and the post as it is will pop into the window at the bottom. hope that helps.

but it's nice to see my words blown up like this i think people tend to discuss power as an objective thing. soandso can do this, soandso can do that, but i was attracted because you see someone who is very much in command in the beginning, and who can be dismantled by another person and exposed. so what does his power mean in comparison to rey? is he really in command or is he projecting all that anger and hatred and menace into his, er, job?

i think he sorta knows what he does to do to project himself as being in command but i don't think he knows how to be truly in command actually. would he be able to work as well without the mask?

 

Vader was basically the son of the force, and someone who helped wipe out entire jedi order, I mean, you cant really match the SON of the force

 

That's how I figured it. She felt powerless and in that precise moment she found something in Ben's mind that she knew she could use against him, if anything else to really annoy the hell out of him. So she blurted that out. She probably wasn't planning on engaging in some pseudo-debate with Ben about the notion of power and the Dark Side, she was just screaming the first thing that came to mind that she knew would catch him off guard. She was right.

 

The reason vader was so powerful is because he is actually a light force jedi and used light force jedi power to do evil "take note the lift choke hold is stil a light force lift but in reverse. No other character has done such. Some sith can move objects but cannot use there powers to lift a human being. For example the emporer cannot lift and move a human can only strike a human or move objects.
In all true aspects Vader is a light force jedi reversing it.

 

Where is that quote from, Yodasfriend? It seems interesting.

 

that's not true at all.

 

The Emperor force choked Dooku in The Clone Wars, which is canon.