ST "You will never be as strong as Darth Vader!"

I'd be interested to know if she knew who Darth Vader was. I'm guessing no. So, that makes her feat impressive, most impressive!

 

That's a nice theory and all, but Abrams admitted that he screwed the pooch on this one, and Kasdan basically admitted that they didn't have any kind of overall plan when writing the script, so I'm sticking with my theory that the reason The Force Awakens has so many discrepancies and things that simply don't make sense is because it's not a particularly well made movie.

 

There's a big difference between being coy with one's answers and straight up admitting that the story was deliberately left open-ended so as not to dictate where the series would go in the future. I think Kasdan's answer was disarmingly honest, and it goes a long ways towards explaining why there are so many holes in the script.

 

Where did he say that?

 

Kylo Ren simply isn't as strong as Darth Vader, and more importantly is not as confident or respected. I understand the argument that Kylo is near Vader's level if you solely look at TFA and the Original Trilogy. However, if you look at the prequels and the new canon it is clear that Vader is better. Vader can survive being crushed by walkers and went through much more physical trauma than Ren ever has.

On another note, did Rey saying "You will never be as strong as Darth Vader!" remind anyone else of this?

 

Yeah, I don't think the OT ever portrayed Vader as strong as he really was simply out of necessity. You have to consider who Vader was going up against. A mostly untrained young and naive Luke who was Vader's son. He never faces anything that could really be considered a true challenge to his force abilities. Whether consciously or subconsciously I don't think Vader would have ever actually killed his son with his own hands. For Vader the challenge was only ever emotional. There just is never really any reason for Vader to show his true strength in the OT.

 

I still think folks need to strap themselves in when finding out who Rey really is.

 

Okay, maybe Abrams didn't intend for the Chewie moment to happen as it did, but how is it a mistake in the first place? In contradicts nothing, it doesn't create a film error, even if I'm dead wrong, it's one of those things that not a big deal.

Okay, first of all, (in Kylo Ren's helmet voice ) what discrepancies? While I will concede that there are a few details that seem glossed over, the movie actually explains pretty much everything (excusing the stuff that's going to carry over into the rest of the trilogy), either through offhand lines or Chekov's guns.

Second of all, what's this about the movie being made with little idea where they were going next? As I understand it, there was a working outline for the trilogy. Case in point, they have stated that Rey's backstory was completely worked out, it's just being parceled over the whole trilogy.

TFA not being a well-made movie? Gonna have to disagree with you there. I saw Star Trek Into Darkness, I know what a bad JJ Abrams movie looks like, and this doesn't really fit the bill.

 

Yeah. These Olympics have made me nostalgic. In 1980 you had Coe and Ovett. In 1984 you had the defending Olympic Champion Coe, the Word Champion, Cram, and the world record holder, Ovett. You had Steve Scott as well. It was awesome, the Coe-Ovett rivalry. And then they were challenged by Cram, Scott, Maree, Spivey, and Aouita.

Then came Morceli, who was impressive, but it got boring. After El Gerrouj beat him, 4 more years of one man domination.

On some ways OT Vader is overrated. Old man Kenobi lets him win, Ham Knicks him out of the running, he fears and kneels before the Emperor, Luke gets a lucky shot on him in V and nearly kills him in VI. Just a bully who killed people who never had a chance.

Still my favorite villain. It would be nice to see him challenged. Ahsoka Tano gave him one.

 

"Vader was seduced by the dark side..."

No, he was used as a source of unspeakably horrible power by the Emperor just because he was born that way. Targeted as a weapon to be wielded when he was nine years old.

Everything he loved was destroyed to make him hate himself so intensely he would never experience any happiness ever again.

Vader was a victim.

 

I don't think that Abrams acknowledging an error in stage direction that wound up locked in to the picture because it appeared in the shot of Leia and Rey acknowledging the empathetic connection through the force that they shared at the moment of Han's death (and is conveyed in that earlier scene) is proof that the writers didn't know what they are doing or that the movie is inherently without sense.

The funny thing is that it is almost always described as Leia snubbing Chewbacca to make a beeline to Rey, when in fact it is Chewbacca that walks straight past the stationery Leia.


Another interesting thing about that part of the film is that in the very next shot, right at the beginning of R2's revival scene, Chewbacca in grief eceives one of the the most beautiful, lingering big close ups in the movie which is not just a talking heads coverage scene or an action/reaction scene.[/quote][/quote]

 

There was in Rebels. He wants Ahsoka dead as per Filoni. Yet he left his fight limping with a gash down his helmet. She seemed fine (based on the brief glimpse we get of her, she appears uninjured).

The extent of his power is inconsistent and varies depending on the writer/director/medium.

In the comics he's a power house, in the OT he was weakened as per Lucas, in Rebels he's somewhere between the two extremes. In the ST he seems to be remembered as incredibly powerful.

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He limped because of a massive explosion, not because he was defeated by Ahsoka. We don't actually know how she survived or what state of existence she is in so it is premature to say she got away without a scratch.

The Lucasian idea that he was weakened on Mustafar was already extinguished from canon as of "Lords of the Sith". The exact opposite happened with Vader's force connection becomming more powerful.

 

Lucas changed his mind on that. He said if Palpatine wasn't holding his potential back to limit it to 80% of his power, Vader still could have become 150X more powerful than Palpatine.

 

Well yeah, but Lucas doesn't call the shots anymore. We have a canon source that contradicts his statement, on the first page no less.

 

Filoni pretty much confirmed she was alive. She would have been in the same explosion.

As far as Lucas' view of Vader being undone, I am aware. But others have discussed that Abrams and Kasdan wrote the script without a real destination in mind, leading to apparent plot holes or oddities in character behavior.

The same is true of the OT now in that Vader was never shown to be uber powerful in the OT, and during the PT era, Lucas explained this as Vader being weaker. While now the powers that be decided he's actually stronger, which makes this gap during the OT where he DOES seem pretty weak compared to how he's depicted in other canon sources, and makes it more difficult to believe that Kylo Ren is that far behind him in ability, if you've only seen the films.

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And you assume that she got out of it by conventional means? We already know she went on some sort of mystical journey and the possible presence of the daughter.

I contribute the supposed weaknesses of OT-characters to differences in style. It's a simple fact that movies shot in the 80ties don't have the same flashy fighting as normal movies. I don't think we're supposed to believe that Obi, Vader and Luke in the OT are all weak-sauce.

 

And even if Vader was weakened, he would still be stronger than everyone except Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Sheev.

 

I believe on one of the Webdocs for AOTC, Lucas does explicitly say that the PT is the Golden Age of the Jedi and that in the OT the fights are less impressive because they are between an old man, a half trained kid, and a cyborg. So at least at one point in time, that is what he wanted people to believe pre-Disney.

Edit: Believe I am confusing two different sources, in the Good to G.O. webisode, Lucas refers to the Jedi being in their heyday and the difference in aesthetics. Not sure about where he blamed it on Vader being crippled.

I know there is the often cited quote that Vader was going to be twice as strong as Palpatine but after being injured was only 80%, but I'm not sure where that was originally stated.

That in itself is surely revisionism, since originally the lightsabers were supposed to be heavy, then in the PT they are lightweight things that can be twirled and dual wielded, and in the ST they are back to being heavy.

I'm aware of the out of universe explanation of differences of choreography and aesthetics.

But even if Lucas wanted to make Luke, etc all "weak sauce" after the fact, it still was an in universe explanation that made sense. Vader was crippled, Luke abandoned his training, and Obi-Wan was a hermit for two decades.

Now Vader is back to being a power house that can do things well beyond what we saw on screen.

And some justify this as "he didn't want to kill Luke" to justify his fighting performance, when my whole point regarding Ahsoka is that he was not holding back against her. Her, Yoda, and Obi-Wan are people Vader wants dead, per Filoni. Vader wants to kill her. She too is someone that abandoned her training, yet she survived.

For the Luke to beat him in a straight fight suggests to me that Vader was simply weaker. Not that he was holding back, not that he was pulling his punches, just that Luke was better, given that Ahsoka could hold her own.

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I always thought the explosion was an obvious case of deus ex machina, probably the reason why I think he couldn't sense her presence after it and then the whole owl/Daughter thing. I find it funny both Snoke and Kylo talk more about Vader, the apprentice than Palpatine, the master. he was completely forgotten for some reason.

 

"And some justify this as "he didn't want to kill Luke" to justify his fighting performance, when my whole point regarding Ahsoka is that he was not holding back against her. Her, Yoda, and Obi-Wan are people Vader wants dead, per Filoni. Vader wants to kill her. She too is someone that abandoned her training, yet she survived."

I don't know if you can argue Vader being portrayed as weaker based on some hijinks by Filoni to save his pet-character. He soundly beat her before she got her surprise hit in and afterwards the audiences are left to guess (at that point Filoni left it open to interpretation according to interviews). Then there comes some sort of Deus ex Machina to save her from certain death. Lets wait on the Deus ex Machina explanation before making judgements against Vader's ability to slay her.

"For the Luke to beat him in a straight fight suggests to me that Vader was simply weaker. Not that he was holding back, not that he was pulling his punches, just that Luke was better, given that Ahsoka could hold her own."

Luke is undoubtedly a prodigy of the force. He may literally become the most powerful Jedi who ever existed. Losing against him, especially in a conflicted and weakened state, makes sense.

I disagree about Ahsoka holding her own in the duel, she was driven back and went flying from a single force-push. It was clear she was heavily outmatched.

 

Fan service is all I can think of. Because no matter how powerful Vader may be, it's clear he is weaker than Palpatine. No matter how strong he was, he was ultimately a lackey. Snoke even says in the novelization that the Empire fell not due to poor strategy, but because of Vader's sentiment. Snoke and Kylo are trying to rebuild what Palpatine had and what Vader destroyed. Why Kylo admires Vader so much is not clear, since Kylo wants to be like the guy that failed and brought down the Empire.

Vader merely is a much more marketable character that fans gravitate to more so than Palpatine, and in its earliest concepts, it seemed like the villains were always going to be Vader wannabes/admirers.

My fear is that this will never be adequately explained. If Snoke/the Knights of Ren were a cult that Vader himself had started as secret apprentices to overthrow Palpatine, then it would explain why Vader is regarded a martyr (per Abrams) and why they are "finishing what he started."

But barring that, or something like that, if Snoke is ancient, or if he turns out to be the guy from the Aftermath novels. Then there's really no reason in universe for the Vader admiration. It's like Neo-Nazis holding Himmler in greater esteem than Hitler.

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Kylo: "I am going to finish what Darth Vader started."
Luke: "You know he was my father, and that he saved my life and killed the Emperor, right?"
Kylo: "Shut up."

 

He seems to dissociate Vader from Anakin Skywalker. Like Vader himself, he doesn't seem to view Anakin and Vader as the same person.

Out of universe: Vader is simply the more popular villain so it makes sense to include him and not Palpatine in your storyline.