ST "You will never be as strong as Darth Vader!"

Also is a taunt with her coming to grips with what she was processing from her force vision. That SHE was as strong as Darth Vader, and he isn't.

 

Kylo NOT becoming as strong as Vader would be more interesting too. Because it makes him frustrated, and thus more dangerous and reckless. Lashing out just like in TFA.

 

Cool article ,It helps me more

 

It's probably a matter of clever propaganda during the Empire's initial reign, and revisionist history afterward. Vader wasn't able to pull information from a victim's mind. He wasn't able to freeze an energy beam in midair with what appeared to be zero effort. I always interpreted the blaster bolt and lightsaber things you mentioned to be due to his armor, not the force. Though I could certainly be wrong.

I think he was possibly more intimidating than powerful, and that the clear air of mystery surrounding him and his powers made him a kind of looming threat and symbol of the Emperor's power in the same way as the Death Star. The Empire was all about establishing perception and selling an image, and Vader's persona and reputation filled the same function as the Death Star's size and firepower; they were more effective as a display than anything else.

So Vader had a huge personality and intimidation factor. There are times when Ren seems to embody this pretty well - when he's exiting his shuttle at the beginning of TFA he's positively terrifying. But then it becomes clear really quickly that no one fears him the way they feared Darth Vader, even though he's every bit as dangerous.

Conclusion: Snoke and the First Order just aren't as good at selling an image as Palpatine and the classic Imperials.

 

Really? I actually never go that idea.

 

@Darth_Pevra sorry can't seem to quote for some reason.

I don't know about that, Finn and Han Solo are on par with Kylo imo. But all around the characters didn't offer much to sink your teeth in, I think they'll be developed further in the films to come.

I would have to strongly disagree with your first sentence there friend. I would say Finn is probably one of the most predictable and shallow characters I have seen in any movie. The whole gormless persona and with the stupid, reactive lines to things such as someone walking into a room he's in; 'who just came in there?' or there is a loud noise - 'what was that noise?'. I couldn't actually believe what I was watching at times, the writing coupled with pretty hammy acting really didn't work for me.

Han Solo is a different story, a great Star Wars character for sure and I would say TFA actually added depth to him. He also technically had to be in the movie given the themes surrounding Kylo Ren. However I find his inclusion and Harrison Ford's performance reeking of fan service, he just comes across as unintentionally old, tired and insincere. It reminds me of films sequels that came out too late like The Crystal Skull or the Godfather part 3. He also suffers from the terrible writing of course, a shame for an actor like Ford. In the end his character may have been given more depth in TFA but for me that small positive was overshadowed by the tired, comical acting, terrible script and the inclusion coming off as nothing more than unneeded nostalgia and fan service. God forbid the writers had come up with something remotely original.

 

I think there are some great scenes involving him that give him depth, like first and foremost the conversation with Maz' about his fear. His protestation about how no one knows the horrors of the First Order may be the best scene in the entire film.

He is also one of the few who has a real character arc in the movie, he goes from someone who is deathly afraid of the First Order and is used to running away to someone who will stand his ground and master his fears when his friends need him.

In comparison Kylo's internal conflict is very in your face. They ignored the "show don't tell" rule and had him openly state conflicts and emotions. He is also very close to being a Commodus (Gladiator) expy. I'm not overly impressed about him even though he has some interesting aspects.

While I agree that Finn is the butt of many jokes, he also gets some serious scenes. There are no real deep characters in TFA but Kylo still doesn't deserve the title of "deepest character in the movie" imo. He is too in your face for that. There's nothing even remotely subtle or subdued in his writing.

I didn't mind that he came across as old and tired. I thought that was actually the point, even other gangsters commented that he isn't what he used to be. It's because his heart wasn't in it, he didn't want to smuggle but at the same time he didn't want to go back to Leia either because he thought it would hurt her. He was a man lost and trapped.

 

I could bring up quite a lot of people that have joined or become the very thing their parents despised or fought against. I know of several children of "Upper class" people who became socialists or communists in revolt against their parents. In some cases even becoming violent.
And I know children of socialists and communists that became total capitalists in revolt against their parents.

I have read about some "non-white immigrants" that joined nazi like parties, parties that hated "non-white immigrants" and these people fought against other immigrants, alongside these nazis.

I also think that there are more than just "kids trying to be edgy" that look up to Hitler and I think it is dangerous to not take them seriously. Esp in light of what is happening in the world today.

[/QUOTE]

I've said this before but Kylo to me comes across as a fanatic. He seems quite like those people that have been taken in by cults at a young age and now they obey the "leader" in all things, even over their parents. And in some cases they even hate their parents.
As someone mentioned, Kylo's lightsaber has similarities with a crusader sword and Kylo is on a crusade.
Kylo is way more fanatical than Vader, Dooku or even Sidious. They viewed the power of the dark side as something to be used for their own ends. Kylo goes beyond that.

Same with the FO compared with the Empire, the latter is a evil and ruthless government, the former is more akin to a radical terrorist organisation.

Kylo wants to please the leader, to show that he is worthy and yet he feels that parts of himself is stopping him to do that. And so he wants to get rid of the things he feels is holding him back.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

I agree with you one hundred percent, Sam.
The way FN-2199 and Kylo scream "Traitor" at Finn only adds to the cult-like nature of the FO. It seems to me like they take his defection as a personal insult, as though he's defiled something sacred that their very souls depend on.
Granted, he has actually killed quite a lot of FO soldiers and officers and I guess that would tick anyone off in their position, but still, I get a distinctly cult-like, almost brainwashed vibe - especially if we throw Hux's speech into the mix.

 

The FO soldiers have been brainwashed from infancy. Hux himself has been brainwashed by his dad. It seems like his entire life revolves only around the FO. It's a whole culture of brainwashing which makes the FO very cult-like. Additionally, the FO is very closed off from the rest of galactic society. They are isolationists and have no contact to other cultures and belief-sets.

But I think that Kylo and the KOR are outsiders in the FO. There's no love between Hux and Kylo in TFA. The KOR is a different cult.

Samuel Vimes

You make some excellent points. But I want to add that in the NEU Vader is set-up to be very much a religious fanatic. He even calls his master's deeds blasphemy once. Kylo follows in his grandfather's footsteps.

 

Really? That's interesting. What kind of deed did Vader consider blasphemous? Was it something that seemed light side-ish or did it have to do with choosing technology over the Force?

Maybe Vader's way of coping with the loss of Padmé was to find a higher purpose in the dark side and maybe that drove him to become even more devoted to it than Palpatine was - until Luke started messing with his mind.

 

Spoiler

Chosing technology over the force. Replacing a Sith apprentice with cyborg creations was too much for him.

I agree. I think he simply needed meaning and purpose and found it in both the Empire as well as the dark side religion. While Palpatine views the dark side like a tool, Vader thinks that he is an instrument of the dark side and that it is his destiny to fulfill its will. Vader also seems to firmly believe that it's Luke's destiny to join the dark side. And of course there's the famous line that Vader has to obey the darkside and follow his master, which is his religious duty as a Sith Apprentice until he can overthrow his master.

 

It could mean that a) Luke has sent Kylo on a mission to bring down the First Order by infiltrating it by going over to the Dark Side. We know that Luke can resist the Dark Side, as we saw in the Return of The Jedi. Maybe he taught this skill to Kylo as he felt he himself would be too dangerous to go over to the Dark Side. We Kylo in TFA being conflicted by the pull to the light, and he uses Darth Vader's helmet, to commune with his grandfather who is also in on the plan to bring down Snoke, the Dark Side and finally bring balance to the Force.

Rey, possibly, could either be a descendant of Palpatine, an offspring of one of his clones, OR Palpatine himself reincarnated. Remember, Plageuis was the one who could cheat death, and he taught his apprentice everything. Luke and Ben are aware of Rey's lineage, and so is Leia. She believes she can be good if she resists the Dark Side, Luke and Ben, although they agree, they believe she is dangerous. When Snoke senses her presence, they are then forced to hide her on Jakku.

Deep down, she knows her purpose, and you can see her being pulled to the Dark Side early on in the movie.

Now, when she says "You will never be as strong as Darth Vader", she, the Palpatine side is taunting Kylo Ren. Vader's saving grace was when he threw the Emperor down the shaft. She is taunting him that he has fallen too deep into the Dark Side, and will never be strong enough to pull himself back, just as Luke did, and just as Anakin did in Episode III.

I believe Rey to be somehow linked to Palpatine, and we'll see that come to the fore in Episode VIII. Remember, the Skywalker (Kylo Ren in this case) is always the hero.

Another little tiny little thing we should know is that when George Lucas first created the world, each name had a meaning, whether hidden or not, behind it.

For instance, Anakin comes from the Caananite tribe, the Anakim, or Anak, which mean "born from the gods".
Sidious is a form of the word "insidious" meaning "deceitful" or "deceptive".
Yoda comes from the Hebrew word "Yoda" which means "knowledge" or "wisdom".
Vader is German for "father"
When we met Han Solo, he was only interested in looking after himself. He was solo.
The Skywalker family walk in the skies, and are the ultimate heroes of the entire saga.

Now, when it comes to Rey, translated from Spanish, "Rey" means "King", "Ruler", "Emperor".

Please tell me I'm not crazy.

 

thebee: You're not crazy and I like your theory, but if all of this was "a)", what is "b)"?

BTW: "Vader" is actually Dutch for "father". The German word is "Vater"

 

Alternate lines that would have been better:

You will never be as cool as Darth Vader.
You will never be as swole as Darth Vader.
You will never be as cool as Han Solo.
You will never be as sexy as Han Solo.
You will never be as stupid as Jar Jar Binks.
You will never be as emo as Anakin Skywalker.
You will never be as strong as Luke Skywalker.
You will never be as obvious as Ric Olie.

 

I don't know. Perhaps Luke told him he would have to do whatever he had to do to maintain his cover and save the galaxy.

 

Luke might have been willing to sacrifice his own life for that cause, but probably not someone else's.

 

Really.

 

no because it's not true.

 

Well I don't much care what is in EU or not, I care what is in the films.
In ANH Vader doesn't much care for technological terrors and thinks the Force is more powerful.
And he doesn't like when Motti mocks him and the Force.
So he can be said to be religious but I wouldn't describe him as a fanatic.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Wait for it.

You'll see.

 

In Australia in the early 1990s, Ivan Milat killed several backpackers and buried them in the Belanglo State Forest. He was sentenced in 1996.

In 2010, Milat's great-nephew, aged 17 (thus being only three when Ivan was sentenced), murdered a boy on his 17th birthday while a friend recorded it on his mobile phone. They deliberately chose Belanglo State Forest as the scene of the crime.

Kylo Ren's worship of Vader seems completely plausible.

 

nope.