Your AL MVP: Justin Morneau

Discussion in 'Archive: The Arena' started by heels1785, Nov 21, 2006.

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  1. heels1785 Community Manager & JD Commish

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    Needless to say, I laugh in the face of this award.

    However, Jeter will contend year after year, so I suppose I can feel some happiness for the young player, he truly did have one hell of a year with the Twins.

    From a Yanks fan, congrats.

    EDIT: Oh, and ESPNNews just broke this during the Schembechler memorial service, dunno if it's up on their site yet.
  2. ApolloSmileGirl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2004
    star 8
    Is this where I bring up the "Tigers made it to the WS, not the Yankees..." argument that seems to have dominated the NL MVP discussion?

    I still think Young > Jeter [face_not_talking]
  3. heels1785 Community Manager & JD Commish

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    Feel free, ASG.

    Point totals and results:

    Morneau (15 1st place, 320 pts.)
    Jeter (12 1st place, 306 pts.)
    David Ortiz
    Frank Thomas
    Jermaine Dye
    Joe Mauer
    Travis Hafner
    Vlad Guerrero
    Carlos Guillen
  4. DarthIntegral Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2005
    star 7
    You sure about those results, heels?

    espn.com is reporting Johan Santana in 7th with the ohter first place vote
  5. Master_Kast7 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2004
    star 6
    I can only contain my anger for so long.....




    *screams in high amount of profanity at the voters*

    You see how Robe Neyer, AmazingB, and myself(probably some others) were saying awards are pointless?


    [Kurt Angle]Oh it's true. It's damn true.[/Kurt Angle]



    *chants*DER-EK JE-TER!*chants*







    ~Liar, lawyer, Mirror for ya, What's the difference? Kangaroo be stoned, He's guilty as the government~
  6. heels1785 Community Manager & JD Commish

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    You dirty stickler. :p

    Yeah, I forgot it, they mentioned it early in the article, before listing the rest of the 3-10.

    *joins in profanity screaming*
  7. MasterP Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2003
    star 7
    As long as it wasn't Jeter.
  8. Rogue...Jedi Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 12, 2000
    star 7
    I think Jeter probably should have won it, but Morneau had a great season as well, and I can't really say that he shouldn't have won it. Although I don't follow the AL nearly as much as the NL, so my perspective might be a bit off.
  9. EMPEROR_WINDU Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2002
    star 5
    Next year and for the remainder of his time left in Cleveland it is my opinion that Derek Jeter and Travis Hafner will compete for the AL MVP.


    Watching the guy hit is just plain scary. .308 average, 42 homers with 117 RBI while spending a considerable amount of time on the DL this past year. Laugh at me if you want, but he's the best hitter in the American League. Very likely the best left handed hitter in the majors.
  10. Drew_Atreides Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2002
    star 5
    Morneau was more valuable to his team then Jeter was to his.


    Even WITH the injuries, the Yankees lineup still has alot more punch to it then does the Twins. (I mean, they had freakin' NICK PUNTO in the lineup regularly!)

    And the Twins did manage to sneak past the Tigers right at the end to steal the division, so it's not like you can make the arguments that everyone is making against Ryan Howard.


  11. Master_Kast7 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2004
    star 6
    Actually I could. It's called Jeter had much better numbers. Plus all those other stats that the voters shove aside.


    But it doesn't really matter. Pujols and Jeter are the true MVP's rather they have the hardware or not.






    ~Liar, lawyer, Mirror for ya, What's the difference? Kangaroo be stoned, He's guilty as the government~
  12. RealMadrid Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2005
    star 3
    Morneau's numbers: 97 R, 34 HR, 130 RBI, .321 AVG, .934 OPS, 3 SB, 93 K
    Jeter's numbers: 118 R, 14 HR, 97 RBI, .343 AVG, .900 OPS, 34 SB, 102 K

    "After June 8, Morneau had the best batting average in the Majors (.362). In that stretch, Morneau also had the most hits in baseball (145) and the most RBIs in the AL (92). And it doesn't take much to link the Twins' turnaround to Morneau's emergence, as the club was 25-33 through June 7 before their going 71-33 the rest of the season, the best record in the Majors during that span."

    -- Excerpted from mlb.com article about Morneau winning the MVP. Hard to argue against a guy having the best batting average, most hits in the majors, and most RBI in his league for pretty much the last 4 months of the season. Sure, Jeter had good numbers and that's why the vote was close, but how Morneau carried his team for the last 4 months is pretty much a no-brainer.
  13. DarthIntegral Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2005
    star 7
    Johan Santana is the real MVP of the Twins, and George Steinbrenner is the real MVP of the Yankees, so neither Morneau nor Jeter should have won it.




    (what, someone had to say it)



    (and I don't honestly mean any of that)
  14. Reynar_Tedros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2006
    star 6
    While it's true that I feel the mainstream media and most fans tend to overrate Jeter, sometimes to ridiculous levels, the fact is that his 2006 season was fantastic with or without a fawning public attempting to make it even better. His season stands on its own as MVP-caliber, whether you're a Jeter basher or a Jeter lover (I'm a Yankee basher, so I guess you can call me the former).

    Jeter batted .343, supplemented his 214 hits with 69 walks and a dozen hit by pitches to get on base at a .417 clip, and used 14 homers and 39 doubles to slug .483. He appeared in 154 of the Yankees' 162 games, stole 34 bases in 39 attempts, scored 118 times, drove in 97 runs, and played nearly 1,300 innings defensively at shortstop (though not particularly well, despite what the Gold Glove voting would have you believe).

    Of course, Joe Mauer is also an up-the-middle defensive player, beat Jeter for the AL batting title (.347 to .343), and topped him in on-base percentage (.429 to .417) and slugging percentage (.507 to .483) as well. Toss in Mauer being safely above average (at least) as a defensive catcher while Jeter is below par (at least) at shortstop and it should actually be Mauer in the top spot, right? At first glance, perhaps, but after further digging, not quite.

    Jeter and Mauer play premium defensive positions and posted similar hitting numbers, with Mauer holding an edge both offensively and defensively. However, Jeter's superior base running eliminates Mauer's advantage at the plate and the difference in their playing time more than takes care of the rest. Jeter played 154 games, came to the plate 715 times, and fielded his position for 1,292 innings. Mauer played 140 games, came to the plate 608 times, and fielded his position for 1,059 innings.

    Much of that gap is not Mauer's fault, obviously. New York's lineup was the best in the league, which enabled Jeter to come to bat more often than he would have on other teams. Similarly, the rigors of catching make it nearly impossible for someone to squat behind the plate for the same 1,300 innings Jeter manned shortstop. Whatever the reasons, at the end of the day Jeter played 14 more games, batted 100 more times, and played an additional 250 innings on defense.

    There are some years when one player has a monster season to make himself the clear choice at MVP, but that wasn't the case in the AL this year. Instead, two up-the-middle defenders put together great seasons at the plate that were eerily similar. When that's the case--when no truly dominate candidate emerges from the rest of the pack and the race at the top in his absence is extremely close--Jeter's edge in playing time is the type of thing that makes a difference.

    In a sense this is a choice of quantity over quality, although that's not really the case because both Jeter and Mauer were excellent in very similar ways. Mauer was better as a defender, but Jeter played 22 percent more innings in the field. Mauer was better as a hitter, but Jeter added more on the bases and came to the plate 18 percent more often. Both players are deserving MVPs who had tremendous seasons, but in terms of all-around total value I think Jeter has a slight advantage.

    In situations like this, I look towards advanced metrics that are designed to go deeper than simply eye-balling the overall numbers. Here's what a few of them say about the Jeter-Mauer comparison:

    Jeter 33-20 WS-AB; 123 RC; 80.5 VORP; 9.8 WARP; 5.98 WPA
    Mauer 31-20 WS-AB; 114 RC; 66.9 VORP; 8.9 WARP; 2.36 WPA

    They're tied at 20 Win Shares Above Bench (WSAB), but Jeter holds a small 33-to-31 edge in Win Shares (WS) and leads by nine runs in Runs Created (RC), 13.6 runs in Value Over Replacement Player (VORP), 1.1 wins in Wins Above Replacement Player (WARP), and 3.62 wins in Win Probability Added (WPA). In other words, while the difference between the two players is relatively small regardless of what metric you choose to look at, Jeter does come out on top.

    Now, a convincing argument could b
  15. Master_Kast7 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2004
    star 6
    In other words.... the voters ****** up again. [face_plain]


    But let's face it the voters only like the numbers that come up every time some comes up to the plate. They don't give a damn about overall play and who had a much more complete of a complete value. And you can throw sabermetrics(sp?) out the ******* window because they don't even exist in the voters minds.








    ~Liar, lawyer, Mirror for ya, What's the difference? Kangaroo be stoned, He's guilty as the government~
  16. heels1785 Community Manager & JD Commish

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    These kooks ain't got nothin on the college football voters.

    Hopefully that provides some comfort.
  17. Master_Kast7 Jedi Grand Master

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    star 6
    Jeter is the MVP in our hearts anyway, heels. ;)






    ~Liar, lawyer, Mirror for ya, What's the difference? Kangaroo be stoned, He's guilty as the government~
  18. heels1785 Community Manager & JD Commish

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  19. Jedi_Master_Ron Jedi Master

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  20. Drew_Atreides Force Ghost

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    Apr 30, 2002
    star 5
    It's so bizarre, cause normally i'm someone sticking up for Jeter in the face of those who claim he's overrated. If i were a GM putting together a team who could win, my shortstop WOULD BE Derek Jeter.

    But you guys acting like this is criminal robbery are just way off.

    I wouldn't be upset if Jeter won the award. I could justify him as MVP.

    I could also justify Morneau for MVP. He and Mauer are the offense on that team (Torii Hunter's not bad, too, but Morneau was the bat protecting both Mauer AND Hunter. Morneau batted fifth for the majority of the season. You could make an argument that the reason that Mauer had such a good season was BECAUSE Morneau was batting behind him, and so Mauer was getting better pitches to hit!)

    Jeter is a fantastic player. He just barely lost the MVP to another player who had a fantastic season and was more important to a smaller-market team.

    Get over it already!
  21. Master_Kast7 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2004
    star 6
    Wrong. Wrong. And wrong. But I am not upset anymore because I knew he wouldn't win it and he's the MVP rather he has the hardware or not. Just like Pujols.







    ~Liar, lawyer, Mirror for ya, What's the difference? Kangaroo be stoned, He's guilty as the government~
  22. Drew_Atreides Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2002
    star 5
    I do like your justifications for that....=D=
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