PT "Your arrogance blinds you, Master Yoda." Is this line more significant than it appears?

How fair/accurate was it of Darth Sidious to say this to Yoda? What does it mean? This line in the movie seems multilayered to me. What are the possible connotations?

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YODA: I hear a new apprentice, you have. Emperor, or should I call you Darth Sidious.

DARTH SlDIOUS: Master Yoda, you survived.

YODA: Surprised?

DARTH SlDIOUS: Your arrogance blinds you, Master Yoda. Now you will experience the full power of the dark side.

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My first interpretation is that Sidious is basically taunting Yoda saying, "You think you are so wise and powerful, yet here I am with all this political power, Anakin on my side, and all of this happened without you even knowing what was happening. I was under your nose scheming the whole time and now you stand in front of me thinking you can win even after this huge blunder you've made."

As for my other interpretation, it's a little more deep. Yoda was the Grand Master of the Jedi Order. Is it fair to say that Yoda's views were extremely influential on the Jedi Order and that the Jedi Order largely reflected that of Yoda's views? If yes, then the Jedi had the same flaws Yoda did.

It's easy to forget that the Jedi Order stood for thousands of years and crumbled under Yoda's leadership. Why? Where they all blind because of their arrogance as Sidious states? What were they blind to? I believe it comes down to "The Force" as we know it in the OT versus "The Living Force" as taught by Qui-Gon Jin. The Jedi Order and Yoda, who didn't focus on the living aspect of The Force as Qui-Gon did, were somewhat complacent. With no threat of Sith they may have lost their "way with the force" over the years. When there is no threat, nothing goes wrong. When nothing goes wrong you believe you are right and don't want to change.

Qui-Gon Jin was always at opposition with the Jedi Council because of his differing viewpoints but it seems to me that he was more in tune with The Force than Yoda in some ways. After all, to Yoda's and Obi-Wan's surprise, Qui-Gon Jin was the one to figure out how to become a force ghost.

What are you thoughts on this line by Darth Sidious and/or what I've written? I love having these geeky Star Wars discussions.

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Going off on a bit of a tangent, I'd also like to state this. Beware though; Star Wars: The Force Awakens SPOILERS/SPECULATION will follow.

The Jedi Order fell because they were blind as Sidious stated. It was time for the Jedi Order to be built under new direction. In Teaser #1 of Star Wars 7, a mysterious character states "There has been an awakening. Have you felt it? The dark side, and the light."

For something to awaken it has to be alive, right? Could it be possible that the new movie will focus more on "The Living Force" as Qui-Gon did? I'm thinking that maybe Obi-Wan, Yoda, Anakin, and possibly Qui-Gon taught Luke more about the Living Force to continue Luke's training after EP VI because they had time to as Luke was no longer in such urgent circumstances. Now Luke can teach his successors about the Living Force and the new generation of Jedi won't hold the views of the previous fallen Jedi Order.

 

I am rather hoping Luke's Order if there is one isn't called Jedi at all. It died for a reason. I believe Sidious was spot on, the Jedi are indeed blind and arrogant. It's in part why they fell.

 

They fell because they'd been murdered on Sidious's orders - not really because of anything they did.

Even the "they're weakened" bit has a reason - the Sith's own manipulations (as described in the newcanon novel Tarkin):

"Alert me when the ship makes planetfall on Murkhana," Sidious said.​

The droid bowed its head. "I will, Your Majesty."​

The two of them were in Sidious's lair, a small rock-walled enclosure beneath the deepest of the Palace's several sub levels that had once been an ancient Sith shrine. That the Jedi had raised their Temple over the shrine had for a thousand years been one of the most closely guarded secrets of those Sith Lords who had perpetuated and implemented the revenge strategy of the Jedi Order's founders. Even the most powerful of Dark Side Adepts believed that shrines of the sort existed only on Sith worlds remote from Coruscant, and even the most powerful of the Jedi believed that the power inherent in the shrine had been neutralized and successfully capped. In truth, that power had seeped upward and outward since its entombment, infiltrating the hallways and rooms above, and weakening the Jedi Order much as the Sith Masters had secretly infiltrated the corridors of political power and toppled the Republic.​

Save for Sidious, no sentient being in close to five thousand years had set foot in the shrine. The room's excavation and and restoration had been carried out by machines under the supervision of 11-4D.​

 

he was correct.

 

"Your arrogance blinds you, Master Yoda." Is this line more significant than it appears?
I always kind of felt like it was just "fightin' words," between the two of them, but now I can maybe see that Yoda saying Vader would be defeated and Palps is saying it just won't happen. Yoda, and the Jedi overall, with their unshaken belief that the light will always triumph over the dark where during this duel, The Sith and the darkside has finally begun to dominate. Maybe it hints that because of the Jedi with their "arrogance" "fear" and overall bias with lack of the darkside of the force has prevented them from seeing just how powerful Sidious and Vader are. That, regardless of the outcome of the duel, Vader can be kept alive by Sidious if he so chooses it. Yoda's arrogance is simply hope at this point, hope that they can still stop the Sith even though the Jedi have been defeated brutally and the Republic is under Palps control. Yoda's arrogance is that he and Obi Wan aren't completely SOL.

 

I always thought it was a bit of both fighting words and subtle philosophical jabs.

Sidious was saying, "You were so blinded by your powers that you couldn't sense who I really was. Too late now, and now I'm about to destroy you just as I've destroyed the other Jedi."

He did have a point, Yoda and the Jedi Order had spent all that time training for the old war that they couldn't even imagine that there were other, more subtle ways the Sith could strike back. They thought they could take an emotionally cripple ex slave boy and train him to just forget the last eight years of his life, especially his mother whom he really missed. Then they wondered why he wouldn't listen and was 'out of control'. They couldn't, or wouldn't accommodate with the times.

 

it's mostly Sidious taunting Yoda.

 

Sidious is actually right.

Even Yoda had said the Jedi were growing arrogant in AOTC. "To sure of themselves they are, even the older more experienced." But what Yoda doesn't realize is that he too has fallen into this trap. Who trained all those Jedi? Again, Yoda.

 

The reason was the Sith rose to power and exacted their revenge against the Jedi.

When?

 

In Episode II, Yoda himself notes that the Jedi have become arrogant, "even the older, more experienced ones." I think Yoda was at least subconsciously including himself in that assessment, so yes, I believe Palpatine was rather on point with that comment. Most of the things Palpatine says are entirely true, from a certain point of view. That's the beauty of his character. He lies with the truth.

 

Then what was he referring to? When was Yoda arrogant enough (if at all) to make him 'blind'? If there's anyone that hasn't shown any arrogance is Yoda.

Ki-Adi Mundi: "Impossible. The Sith have been extinct for a millenium." (a somewhat arrogant reply)

Mace Windu: "I do not believe the Sith could have returned without us knowing." (disbelief, skepticism)

Yoda: "Ah... Hard to see the dark side is." (open to the possibility)

 

He said he would give back the executive war powers back to the Senate when the was was over. That was just a lie.
He told (or implied) Anakin he knew how to cheat death. Another lie.
He spent most of his life with an alter ego. Another lie.
He told Anakin that he killed Padme...depending on how you look at it, another lie.
He rarely if ever tells the truth.

Agreed. People want to paint Yoda as arrogant so they can point out the `flaws`in the Jedi, when in reality (the reality of SW fiction) Yoda was a great person who loved the Jedi and the Republic and did what he could despite the machinations of the Sith. The ROTS novelization puts it best, Yoda had lost the battle with the Sith "before he was born."

 

It means Yoda is about to be surprised by the power of the dark side, by the power of Palpatine's Force lightning, and absolutely nothing more.

Yoda struts in there confidently, as if he's got this, and Palpatine is saying "no, you don't". Palpatine is saying Yoda has overestimated his own strength, and underestimated Palpatine's.

It's all about the battle that's about to happen. Nothing else. No other significance.

"At an end your rule is, and not short enough it was."
"If so powerful you are, why leave?"


I love those lines, because they're badass, but Yoda has uncharacteristically allowed himself to get carried away with badass action guy revenge, probably due to, you know, the Jedi being exterminated.

It takes a while for Yoda to learn that the more he hurls himself at Palpatine, the more he plays Palpatine's game, and so he humbly retreats and goes into hiding.

 

He said he would give up his powers once the crisis had abated. But he never said when he would consider the crisis to have ended.

We've been through this before. He was tricky with the grammar. He never actually said he knew how to cheat death, only that his master knew how.

Yes, he probably had to lie at some point off-screen. That's only logical. But he never actually lies when he's onscreen in the movies. That's intentional, and significant.

Again, I agree with you. After all, I said he lies with the truth. But there was a kernel of truth to it. Anakin killed her by breaking her heart and sapping her of the will to live. Palpatine never elaborated, so Vader assumed he meant that he killed her on the landing platform. But Palpatine never said that.

 

The crisis ends when the war is over. Twisting your definition of the truth to make it unrecognizable is the equivalent to a lie. Let's not split hairs here.

Sorry, I respect your opinion, it's certainly interesting. From my POV it seems Palpatine knows at every point that he's deceiving everyone for his own means. He hates the Republic and the Jedi and lived a lie for decades in order to destroy both.

"Learn to know the Dark Side of the Force and you will be able to save your wife from certain death." Gee, sounds like a lie.

 

Indeed Yoda is blinded by arrogance, but so is Sidious. "Your arrogance blinds you" is equally true of the speaker and of the subject.

 

I agree that Yoda loved the Jedi and the Republic. I also agree that he did all he could to save both. But I also agree that he, along with the rest of the Jedi, were blind to what was going on. I think all of those years of complacency had made them - Yoda included - rather arrogant.

Then again, Palpatine was guilty of the same. Both the Jedi and the Sith were mired in their own arrogance and blindness.

 

Still waiting for an example to support the claim that Yoda was arrogant and blinded by it.

 

He thought he could fight and bomb his way to victory in the Clone Wars. He thought he could defeat Sidious by overpowering him with physical violence. He was certain that Anakin had been completely consumed by Darth Vader, and told Obi-Wan so, even though it wasn't the case.

Why do you get to define what constitutes a twisting of the truth and what doesn't? Everything is a twisting of the truth. Language can never perfectly communicate truth. It is an imperfect vessel and always will be. Palpatine said he would give up his powers once the crisis had abated, and he meant it. Think about it. What does he mean when he says "the crisis"? He means the threat of separatism, the threat of rebellion against the established order. Well, that threat always exists, at all times, no matter what. It doesn't take a genius to understand that. Is Palpatine a liar because he declined to explain the obvious to an unquestioning crowd of fearful sycophants? Maybe the Senators are guilty of lying to themselves, for being in active denial about who and what they were supporting. Because surely at least some of them knew what they were signing up for. Again, it doesn't take a genius.

That's where you're wrong. Palpatine loves the Republic, and he loves the Jedi. He understands them better than they understand themselves. And in order to truly understand someone, you have to love them. It's the same reason people are so fond of villains like Darth Vader and the Emperor. On some level, they can relate to them, even if they completely disagree with them philosophically. And that's a kind of love.

I mean, the Republic and the Jedi together gave Palpatine everything he could have ever wanted. Their flaws and imperfections are what made them so precious to him, because they could be understood and exploited for his own personal gain.

On the contrary, that's almost certainly the least dishonest thing he ever says. Palpatine clearly believes what he's saying to be true. He's after the secret of immortality, too, after all. He doesn't know that Padme is going to die that very day as a result of Anakin's actions. It's not his fault Anakin sloppily reveals all his dark plans to her and destroys her will to live. If Anakin had been smart, like Palpatine, he would have continued to live a double life. He would have been self-aware enough to realize that Padme would never go along with his true plans for the galaxy. He would have strung her along, pretended to still be on the side of the angels, given her false hope. But he didn't do that, and that's all on Anakin.

 

Double post.

 

When?

"Victory?! Victory, you say? Master Obi-Wan, not victory. The shroud of the dark side has fallen. Begun the Clone War has."

Also, in RotS, all we see is that the Jedi are trying to capture the leaders of the separatist army (Dooku and Grievous) in order to end the war.

Is there another way to defeat Sidious without confronting him? I can't think of any.

They saw him commit genocide against the people that adopted him for most of his life. How is it arrogant to say that he was consumed by Darth Vader?

 

All he's saying is that they haven't won the war yet; they've only won one battle. The implication is still that the Jedi can achieve victory over their enemies through warfare. Look at Yoda's arc through Episode II. For the first 2/3 of the movie, Yoda is lost. He has a permanent look of befuddlement on his face. He knows something is wrong, he knows the Jedi are going down a bad path, but he can't figure out what he's supposed to do. Then he's offered a clone army, and the opportunity to be a general in a war. For the first time in the movie, Yoda has a purpose. He's smiling. He isn't confused. He knows what he has to do. He has to fight Count Dooku and his Sith Master in a Clone War. By the end of the movie, he's come to realize that the sense of purpose he's been given here is, at least in part, illusory. But he pushes forward anyway, because he can't see any other alternative.

Well, yes. There is. By refusing to fight him. That's what the movies are about. That's how everything is resolved. Luke refuses to fight Sidious, and that's how he wins.

Well, Yoda was wrong, wasn't he? Luke could see that there was still good in Vader. Surely Yoda could have seen what Luke saw, if only he'd looked a little harder?

 

No, he's saying there's no victory in war, that the fact that a war exists is bad in and on itself. Just like he later says that 'wars not make one great'.

I don't see where that's ever implied. The fact is, since there is a war, they have to fight in order to protect the Republic they serve and to defeat the threat.

Because the rise of the dark side made the Jedi blind. It's said in the movie that their ability to use the Force has diminished.

What bad path? Where do we see that being acknowledged? They are trapped by the reality they are in, that doesn't make the path bad. It's the only path they have.

What was he supposed to do?

We don't see any of that in the movie. That's pure speculation on your part. He's smiling for the opportunity of being a general?!

Who said he lost a sense of purpose to begin with? He's a Jedi. He has a purpose by default.

No, it isn't. How does refusal to fight evil fixes anything? What if the Naboo had refused to fight the Trade Federation? What if the Republic had refused to fight the Separatists? What if the Alliance had refused to fight the Empire? What if Anakin had refused to fight Sidious and throw him down a shaft?

That's how he wins Anakin's return, not how he wins the fight against Sidious.

Yes, but that doesn't make him arrogant, which is what has been claimed.

 

Palpatine was both taunting and speaking the truth to Yoda. As many have said, the Jedi were starting to get arrogant and both Yoda and Palpatine knew that. I don't think Yoda was really arrogant, he never really across as that to me. When he says "At a end your rule is" I think he's saying it more like he's seriously going to bring down Palpatine. Also, I love this part.