PT "Your arrogance blinds you, Master Yoda." Is this line more significant than it appears?

I fully understand that. What I'm saying is that even given what the Jedi did know, they were doing the wrong thing. The Jedi thought fighting the Separatists was the right thing to do. The movies never say they had no choice, just that they fea. Padme was not saying the Republic had become evil based on knowing the war was a farce. "This war represents a failure to listen." Even if there was no sith lord playing both sides, the war was still wrong. When she was against the war, it was not based on knowing there was a Sith behind it. She was against it because it was overreaching power from the very beginning. Of course, the Jedi failed to adapt to the reality in time to save themselves.

Very few people ever found out that the Sith were behind it all, yet they went along with the expansion of Empire and even cheered it. The Jedi should have preserved themselves and their values rather than going down with a sinking ship, compromising their values, and thus becoming tools of oppression. It may even be possible that Palpatine needed the Jedi to create the Empire. Think about it.

Please don't call this a sermon. I don't see why we can't discuss Star Wars on a Star Wars forum. Unless you think this has nothing to do with the story that was presented us and I'm just making all this up. Anybody want to come out and say I'm making all this up?

 

Palpatine is to blame for the genocide, but the Jedi are to blame for enabling and aiding Palpatine's expansion of power up to the point that he was unstoppable. They did too little, too late, to stop it. If they had used diplomacy instead of becoming war generals, which was their option, they would not be lending their power to the "emergency powers" expansion. Trading freedom for security doesn't turn out well for you. That's the lesson.

 

You're not making things up. Some people throw out such labels as thought-terminating clichés, in order to stifle discussion and make their view the dominant one. It is a means of conquest: lobbing words as grenades, using language as a weapon, in the service of destroying dissent and establishing an ideological narrative that becomes harder and harder to question; which also conveniently has the effect of discouraging others from taking up a discredited mantle. Message board terrorism, if you will.

Some are also clearly disturbed by some of the implications of the prequel trilogy storyline. They'd rather not look too closely at something they've invested certain emotions in. They want their view of the films to remain a particular way; they'd rather not open themselves up to the possibility that their understanding -- which also extends outside of the films, of course -- might be wrong or, at the very least, lacking nuance. People frequently adopt parochial positions in life which they stick to against all possible counter evidence. They have trouble letting go and seeing a bigger picture. It has implications for their sense of self and their social identity.

Also, the human brain is full of primitive architecture, and only the front part is new and capable of so-called "higher brain" thinking. This means that most of what we think and feel is unconscious; we then try and rationalize after the fact. Unsurprisingly, numerous psychological studies show we have a great capacity to deceive ourselves: we perceive and recall data incorrectly and which is open to change according to outside influence, we constantly both overrate and underrate our abilities and those of others and outsider groups based on a range of quite predictable factors, and what we claim to like or dislike is contradicted by measurable reactions to certain stimuli. This doesn't even take into account the actions of certain hormones on our moods, the interaction of pharmaceutical and recreational drugs, sleep deprivation, brain trauma, and other confounding variables.

It looks like you're having a tough time in this thread, Ken. Most people don't want to see the Jedi as culpable for anything. "It was all Palpatine's fault!", they say. Ironically, some blanch at this same notion when Anakin's actions are brought up -- suddenly, he's responsible for all his actions, and it's laughable to invoke Palpatine or anyone else, but an entire order of intergalactic psi-cops apparently are entirely blameless, and are conveniently conceived as little more than unthinking robots. Funny, I thought the Jedi were meant to embody higher ideals, and that the prequel trilogy is a tragedy, portraying how the Jedi lost their way, but maybe I'm totally wrong and these films have a cartoon morality that isn't worth discussing.

Good try, though, Ken.

 

I think the only thing for me to do is spend less energy on arguing with people who disagree, and have more discussion with people who agree. Thanks for your thoughts. I like hearing them, because part of talking about Star Wars is having a common frame of reference when talking about the story. It feels odd when large chunks of the story are ignored.

 

Ken, as near as I can tell, your conduct and your contributions in this thread have been exemplary.

This post, in my opinion, could also be hung on a wall somewhere; and probably should be:

The cogency of your wording in that -- especially the last paragraph (an awesome summation) -- made my eyes water a little. Brilliant!

I think you have also made me respect George Lucas and the saga even more. Your adducing of those quotations is fantastic and has brought a renewed clarity and calm to my mind.

You seem to see into this saga in a very erudite way. The Lucas video clip is the icing on the cake. He says it plain: it's about the good and evil that runs through all individuals and every institution. Very sharp of you to provide it.

I wonder why some are scandalized by the notion that the Jedi are open to criticism? Maybe some are just too attached to the OT or something. As the PT shows, attachment can be dangerous -- and people have a whole tool-kit of rationalizations to deny their attachments.

 

I think Obi-Wan and Yoda are made more human by seeing their past flaws, which gives me even more respect for who they became by the time of the OT. Seeing the flaws of the Jedi in the PT allows us to appreciate the ways that Obi-Wan and Yoda ultimately prove to be wiser in the OT. This gives them a character arc that would be missing if they had no flaws.

"There are alternatives to fighting" - Obi-Wan
"Wars not make one great" - Yoda

The OT is very much enhanced by looking deeper into the PT, so OT fans will also find Luke's victory over evil becomes even more dramatic when viewed in the light of all those Jedi who failed before him.

 

Indeed. Couldn't agree more.

I'll add that it's easy to imagine Obi-Wan and Yoda adopting a more reluctant view of armed and open conflict after being humbled, even brutally humbled, by being forced into exile at the close of ROTS.

I mean, there is definitely a very big, interconnected story that Lucas is telling in Star Wars. You need all six films to really see it. But even then, if you remain close-minded, you might still miss it.

Also, I just want to add...

An honourable mention to The_Phantom_Calamari for some brilliant posts before!

I don't think I could have kept my cool in this thread the way you two have; never mind the eloquence and erudition you've both brought.

If you two hadn't have posted, to be honest, I wouldn't have entered into here at all.

 

I fear I've got some way to go before that degree of eloquence is reached.

 

Eloquence doesn't matter that much, though:

"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."

At the end of the day, it's more WHAT is being said, rather that HOW it is said.

But any real degree of eloquence, in my opinion, really comes from reading -- and by reading, one also has the virtue of learning things worth knowing, and even learning which things are worth knowing.

 

You are mistaking Anakin's words here as being those of the Jedi. Perhaps you have not noticed that Anakin is far removed from Jedi thinking. There are some clues to this. His cutting down of a village of Tuskens and other hissy fits he throws when he doesn't get his own way; his murder of the unnarmed (literally) Dooku; his craving power; his marriage to Padmé and all the other holding of secrets. That Anakin says he thinks Padmé is beginning to sound like a Separatist is noit meant to imply that the Jedi feel that way. In fact we are shown that the Jedi sense that the war is a false flag event and are attempting to end it as quickly as possible and force the Chancellor to stand down. Everything that we see them do in the movies (as opposed to the awful revisionism of TCW) is try to bring an end to the war, not to gain victory over the Separatists or for the Republic per sé.

I asked what the Jedi are to do when the Separatists are to invade the Republic. Are they to stand back and watch as the Republic they are sworn to defend is attacked, citizens imprisoned and killed? What would become of the clones? They would be thrown against the front line with little care for their safety...especially as Palpatine would have an even greater hand in affairs. All that you could offer was the platitude "adapt".

Here's how the story works. Nobody (in universe) knows that the war is a false flag event. As far as the Jedi and the Republic know the Separatists are being lead into war by Dooku and the other leaders. They are going to invade Republic planets (they make that clear on Geonosis). They are not simply seceding...yet you argue as if that is the case. So, what might this invasion look like? Well we have an example of an invasion by the TF. Citizens are rounded up, imprisoned and people die. This is not (as you paint it) a peaceful, political secession being attacked by a greedy Republic. Even less is it a peaceful, political secession being attacked by the Jedi...because the Jedi are not the decision makers. The Senate are....you remember those scenes in the Senate chambers? That's what they are about. That is where decisions are made. So avoiding the non-committal platitude of "adapt" ...what are the Jedi to do given the circumstances they find themselves in?

AS for warnings....there's nobody here who doesn't 'get' that Lucas is offering a warning against those who would undermine democracy, its a matter of who it is we're being warned against. Cui Bono. Do the Jedi gain by these actions? No, they get murdered. Do the Separatists gain? No, they get murdered. Do the people of Republic or Separatist systems benefit? No, they become enslaved to the Empire. Does Palpatine benefit? Just a little, he becomes 'Master of the Universe'. So, my finger of blame tends toward that direction. Does anyone else benefit? Well...by playing along certain Senators gain (or at least retain) their privileges...some of them may have become Moffs. Military commanders will have benefited as the military became more important within the Empire.

So...not the Jedi. They gain nothing. They are not seeking power or privilege, they are seeking to restore democracy. Blaming the Jedi, saying Lucas is directing his ire against them would be like claiming Lucas is directing his ire against the soldiers who fight false wars...rather than the manipulators who benefit from them.

In fact I would say that the message (from this and from any deeper look at reality) is to be wary of any 'flag', of any notion of sides being drawn. Of following leaders, of allowing leaders power. Avoid power in the hands of smaller and smaller cadres.

Just one last point. The claim that one does not stop war by killing the opposition leadership... There were attampts made against Hitler throughout WW2. There's a reason for that. He was the problem in finding a solution. There were those within Germany who would have put an end to the war, but the cadre Hitler had built around him could not and would not. Sometimes it is exactly the cabal that has power that is the issue.

 

KenW you've given some rather provocative statements in this thread. Some I agree with, some I don't.

First I will say this, the Jedi as a whole (not every single individual of the order) had become arrogant. It is a theme that runs through the prequels. From mace not believing the Sith could have returned, based on the only evidence that the high and mighty Jedi and their powers would have felt it, to AOTC when Mace tells Padme that Dooku couldn't be behind the assassination attempt because he was a Jedi (not because he was friends with Dooku, but because a Jedi could never stoop to that level), and then in ROTS we have Yoda thinking he was the only one strong enough to take on Sidious, while not listening to what Obi Wan was telling him, that he couldn't kill Anakin. The Jedi were arrogant.

However, I don't believe they deserved the fate they were handed, even though their short-comings played a part in their fate. There is a difference between blame and accepting fault.

Here...We....Go....

I don't agree with your example here. It is not a truthful example.

The separatists weren't against a central government, after all they setup their own Congress that operated very much like the Republic Senate did (as seen in TCW, S3E10 "Heroes On Both Sides"). The Separatists were against the corruption that had spread through the Republic, a corruption that they were aware of because of Dooku. The irony is that the Separatists accepted military help from the very mega corps that were such a huge part of the corruption in the Republic, a fact that Dooku failed to mention to the CIS Congress.

So in reading a lot of your posts past this one, I have seen you keep making reference to the Separatists wanting to be free of a central government, or be independent. That simply isn't the case, they wanted to be free of corruption, and they built their new system of government with the same structure of the government they just seceded from, a central government, with Dooku as the head. They hoped that they could start over and not have the corruption.

Again I have to disagree to a point here with you. After the battle of Geonosis, the Jedi realize that there is more going on then just a Civil War over secession. One of their own has turned to the Dark Side (whether they realize he was a Sith or not at that point is debatable) and is now leading the Separatists. The Jedi realize that the emotions of the Dark Side now feed Dooku, so his honorable intentions of leading the Separatists out of the corrupt government of the Republic and into something better is not true either. As I said earlier, the CIS takes on the help of the Trade Fed and other Mega Corps, which the Jedi are aware are the major forces behind the corruption of the Republic (See invasion of Naboo and how the Trade Fed was able to manipulate the Senate). So the Jedi know that there is a lot more at stake then punishing disloyal systems, they know that (from the events of AOTC) the separatists are looking to make an army for themselves so to force the Republic to bend it's knee to them and force the Republic to their demands. Dooku to the Mega Corps after pointing out they will have the greatest army in the galaxy: "The Jedi will be overwhelmed. The Republic will agree to any demands we make"

Also, as you argue that the Jedi were fighting a war for one rule, so were the Separatists. As I already pointed out, they created their own Senate, they had their own Chancellor (Dooku), they were fully aware of who was supplying their military, as Dooku says in AOTC that 10,000 more systems will join their cause once they find out the Mega Corps have supplied their armies. So the Separatists weren't this bunch of freedom fighters looking for independence and self rule, They were just looking to get away from the corruption of the Republic, not how it was structured.

While I agree with the first part of what you're saying here, you loose me when you try to draw a line of similarity between the CIS and that of the Rebellion. While the Republic may have been corrupt, it was not an Empire yet, and certainly the CIS wasn't a bunch of freedom fighters trying to get out from underneath an Empire that would resort to destroying an entire planet.

Since you want to bring up American History, the parallels between The Clone Wars and the American Civil War are very forthcoming. The American Civil War was not fought over slavery, but, because the North wanted to bring the South back into the Union.

Now before any one wants to correct me, please do some reading first. Slavery is taught to school kids as the reason because there needs something honorable attached to something as horrible as that war was. The truth is that Lincoln ran his Presidential Campaign on the platform he wouldn't take one slave away from the slave states, as noted in many of his speeches. In fact in his first inaugural speech he says:

"Apprehension seems to exist among the people of the Southern States, that by the accession of a Republican Administration, their property, and their peace, and personal security, are to be endangered. There has never been any reasonable cause for such apprehension. Indeed, the most ample evidence to the contrary has all the while existed, and been open to their inspection. It is found in nearly all the published speeches of him who now addresses you. I do but quote from one of those speeches when I declare that "I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so." Those who nominated and elected me did so with full knowledge that I had made this, and many similar declarations, and had never recanted them. And more than this, they placed in the platform, for my acceptance, and as a law to themselves, and to me, the clear and emphatic resolution which I now read:"
http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/1inaug.htm

Even after the war started, the Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in the Confederate States, it did not free a single slave in the slave states that did not secede from the union. Slavery caused the South to Secede, Secession caused the War. If the Civil War was really about Slavery first, the Emancipation Proclamation would have freed all slaves, not just some of them. Thus the Civil War was about retaining the Union first. Anyway with that History lesson over...

As I was saying there are similarities between the Clone Wars and the American Civil War, there was the Union (The Republic) and the Confederates (the Confederacy of Independent States). One wanted to Secede from what it perceived was corruption (only to take the side of something that was corrupt), while the other fought against secession. Does one have the right to secede? It will always be a matter of opinion.

Yoda denied he had a Dark Side by stating he didn't recognize the shadow Yoda. As the shadow Yoda stated, the dark side is part of everything living. Yoda already learned how to keep his Dark Side in check, however he buried it so deep, that he refused to admit he had one, he was arrogant. He finally beats shadow Yoda by admitting he has a dark side, that he recognizes shadow Yoda, but that Shadow Yoda does not have power of him. Yoda has already learned to keep his Dark Side in check he is not just starting to learn as you say, however, he had to admit that he still had one, that is when he finally defeats his hubris (arrogance), when he finally admits he has a Dark Side. As you can see by his quotes, he isn't talking in a future context, that he has to learn still, he tells shadow Yoda that he already controls him (his dark side). It was all about conquering his arrogance, his pride, his Hubris. That trial was not about learning to control his dark side, it was about pride.


Yoda: “Recognize you I do. Part of me you are – yes. power over me you have not. Through patience and training, it is I who control you. Control over me you have not. My dark side you are. Reject you I do.”

Force Being: You have conquered your hubris...

His next trial was temptation....

You're continued drawing of parallels between the Republic and Empire continues to rely on not recognizing that the Empire killed innocents in doing what it had to do, on purpose. Or did you forget about Alderaan? Where as the Republic, under the leadership of the Jedi did everything they could to avoid innocent deaths and even lead many missions to break Separatists blockades that were starving out systems as seen in TCW.

As far as I know Yoda never led the invasion of Umbara, that was General Kreel. Furthermore, many Clones were killed on screen by the Umbarans as well. You fail to point out that the Umbarans had a highly advanced military. They had tanks, star/air fighters, artillery, small arms, anti aircraft, etc etc etc. They weren't just some innocent farmers that the Jedi and Clones chose to just start killing to serve their purpose. The Umbarans chose to side with the Separatists, it was their choice to take up arms against the Republic.

I strongly disagree that Yoda was part evil. I already explained he had his Dark Side in check, he just needed to admit he still had a dark side, he couldn't deny it.

 

I agree that Yoda conquered his hubris in the trial, but that did not mean he became infallible for all time, and that was after he already had hubris in the Clone Wars. The following quotes clarify this:

Force being: You have done well, but to succeed, your life must be spent learning, practicing.

Force being: What you faced was a reflection of your hubris and the shadow of your soul.
Yoda: And yet clear I thought I was.
Force being: The beast is you, and you are the beast.
To deny it simply gives it power.
Yoda: Now I see.
Simple the answer was.

Yoda: No longer certain that one ever does win a war I am.
For in fighting the battles, the bloodshed already lost we have.
Yet, open to us, a path remains that unknown to the Sith is.
Through this path, victory we may yet find.
Not victory in the Clone Wars but victory for all time.

This was only a victory that could be found away from service to the Republic, which had for long been too corrupt.

Also, there are degrees of tyranny. I agree the Empire was the ultimate, greatest tyranny that the corruption of Republic spawned. Of course, The Death Star exploding Alderaan was worse than fighting a war with a system to regain control of the people. But both were wrong. The Republic expanded its own power until it became an Empire.

"Like the greatest of trees, able to withstand any external attack, the Republic rotted from within" - Star Wars: A New Hope 1977 novel, prelude.

The Separatist Trade Federation was, of course, greedy and two-faced. They were not looking for liberty for all, either. I'm not saying they were a good organization. But the right of self-rule is evident in the very message of Star Wars, even in the OT, with Luke's story. If people choose to be ruled by the Separatists rather than the Republic, invasion is not justified. Not that it is a better idea. Both sides are wrong, not just one. Both sides were guilty of invasions as a means to expand territorial rule. It takes two to tango.

 

If they hadn't fought the Separatists, they wouldn't be fullfiling their roles of protectors of the Republic.

Fear? Fear what? And what valid choice did they have?

Of course it is, and the Jedi acknowledge that fact in the movies. But so what? Denying the reality of war is not a solution. Leaving the Republic vulnerable to attack, or not doing anything at all when they could use their powers to help prevent more deaths is your solution?

Yes, they should, if there was a valid alternative. Except there wasn't.

I don't see it.

Yoda was already certain in AotC that there's no victory in war. Of course, we could continue to pretend that there was a change on his ideals or accept the fact that he was consistent in all five movies he was in.

 

When Yoda said "not a victory, begun the clone wars have" he had been certain that they could stop the war from starting by invading Geonosis and capturing Dooku before he rallied more systems to the Separatist cause. If he didn't think they could stop the civil war from starting, he never would have led the charge to Geonosis.

"If Dooku escapes, rally more systems to his cause, he will." ― Yoda.

Then Yoda continued trying to stop the war by invading separatist systems and capturing separatist leaders. He continued to be certain that engaging in war to try to stop the war could work, until he finally changed, and became uncertain of this tactic. By the time of Revenge of the Sith, the Jedi were still looking to end the war by capturing Grievous and Dooku, but were planning to confront Palpatine about this perpetual war if he continued the war beyond the death of Grievous and Dooku. By that time, Palpatine and the Republic had so much power that it was easy for them to defeat the Jedi.

Sorry, but Yoda has a character arc. He is not a static saint.

 

The war would start sooner or later, but yes, by capturing Dooku, he would prevent the threat of increasing. But when he says that, he's saying that there's no point in claiming victory in a war.

Invading?! What are you talking about?

No. He was certain that capturing the separatist leaders would end the war. He was also certain that fighting the separatists would prevent them from harming the Republic. And he was right on both counts.

Yes, which was the point all along.

 

The Outer Rim Sieges - the Republic besieging Separatist worlds and invading a few.

 

Yes. Expansion of territorial control and power over systems was an essential step in the transformation of the Republic into an Empire. Many of the Clone Wars episodes end with a clone occupation of a system. When the Empire was announced, all the stormtroopers were already in place.

 

What the Outer Rim Sieges are is EU. They are mentioned in RotS, but what it is can be interpreted in different ways.

 

It's pretty clear from the context that the Republic have been fighting on Separatist-held worlds.

"Ninth time. That business on Cato Neimoidia doesn't count"

"Saleucami has fallen, and Master Vos has moved his troops to Boz Pity"

And so forth.

 

Yes, but there are many ways to hold worlds. Under invasion, agreement, threat, etc... For all we know, the Republic could be saving the natives from the Separatists.

As for Cato Neimoidia, all we know is that Anakin saved Obi-Wan's life there at some point. Besides, Cato Neimoidia is at least officially neutral. They still have a seat in the senate.

 

I hesitate to call it invasion. There are plenty of reasons to be on those worlds, if not invasion, or rescue, then blowing up a droid production factory or other things to stop the separatists.