"Your arrogance blinds you Master Yoda"

I didn't think Yoda was being arrogant at all. He asked a question, 'Suprised?' and Sidious looked at it like arrogance on Yoda's part. Yoda came to fight, no doubt about it, and at this point words mean very little.

 

Well put, sith_rising.

Also, I think, from Sidious' point of view, Yoda is arrogant who put himself above the dark side, when the dark side is so powerful.

 

I agree that Yoda was arrogant, so were all the members of the Jedi Council. For those who disagree with me, then what were they? Complacent? Overconfident? Lazy? Foolish? Ignorant???

Oh yeah, sinister , summed it up nicely.

 

Indeed, arrogant he is.

Just like his line to Dooku in AOTC, when he states: "Much to learn you still have." When clearly the opposite is true, in terms of the bigger picture. Yoda even references his own arrogance in AOTC, when he says: "A fault more and more common amongst Jedi. Even the older, more experienced ones." And yet by the time of ROTS, he still hasn't got a proper handle on it.

He has started to practice using the living Force more, witnessed by his becoming more in tune with Anakin's thoughts and feelings, but it is too little, too late.

That is one of the saddest parts of watching Yoda in ROTS. He understands what is happening, and the Jedi's arrogant, oblivious complicity in helping to shape the events that are unfolding, but it is too late for him to do anything about it.

When he enters the Emperor's Chambers, the battle is already lost.

The Chosen One has already fallen.


-JR

 

When he enters the Emperor's Chambers, the battle is already lost.


Yep.

That is one of the saddest parts of watching Yoda in ROTS. He understands what is happening,

I dont think he ever does fully.

 

voodoopuuduu
That is one of the saddest parts of watching Yoda in ROTS. He understands what is happening,

I dont think he ever does fully.


well, after the fight for sure, at the very least. but also, in AotC, mace windu says to yoda that they should inform the senate that their powers to use the force has diminished. i always liked the idea that yoda was fulfilling his duty by facing the emperor. he saw that the fight was too close, it would become waaaaay destructive and the winner would just be lucky (i mean whoever found their saber first would win). he failed to take down sidious when he dropped his saber to sidious' electricity, it was a tough loss.

 

I dont consider it a LOSS. It was more of a stalemate. Yoda decided in his head that lightsaber duel would not defeat Sidious(ROTS Novel) It would takwe something else entirely.....a peaceful path....which allowed Luke to sway Anakin to destroy Sidious in ROTJ. As Yoda said in the Novel....."the Sith had evolved and the Jedi had not". The Sith had learned to use combat as their weapon against the Jedi. That is why Yoda could not defeat Sidious with lightning. Arrogance was not Yoda's alone. He realizes his error and is very humble in ESB and ROTJ. The path he led Luke down allowed him to rely on his feelings and intuitions rather than his discipline and knowledge of lighsaber combat.
Anakin had it all along. The key to the path of the light was not discipline but trust in one's feelings......something the Jedi frowned upon during the end of time of the Republic. Anakin had dark feelings just as Luke did. Yoda's guidance allowed Luke to make his OWN decision based upon HIS feelings.....

 

I think Yoda makes mistakes. Sometimes with the best intentions in the world, but still mistakes. He's not infallable, and I prefer that.

And he does seem a quieter and more introspective figure in the OT. Several of his lines and comments have extra resonance now.

 

I think the quote by Sith_Rising would have been VERY appropriate. Sidious basically was telling Yoda "YOU ARE DEFEATED. CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT??!?! You are pretty arrogant to think you can still win this battle at the last second when you have been losing it for over a decade! Open your eyes now like you should have many years ago, admit defeat, and go climb into some slimy mudhole. This is over." And indeed this was true. Yoda was not strong enough to win the stealthy battle that Palpatine and his line of Apprentices had started before TPM, in fact, it wasn't untill very late that he even knew that the battle was taking place. In football, when you are down 66-0 with 2:00 left in the 4th quarter, even a hall of fame cast appearing on the field won't save you. It is indeed too late.

Carnage

 

Darth_Magi
The key to the path of the light was not discipline but trust in one's feelings......something the Jedi frowned upon during the end of time of the Republic. Anakin had dark feelings just as Luke did. Yoda's guidance allowed Luke to make his OWN decision based upon HIS feelings.......

yah, that definitely rings true d_m

 

Yoda, in his own way, was just as arrogant as many of the other characters in the saga. Sometimes, I got the feeling that his "humble and wise" persona was accurate. Sometimes, I thought that it was a facade that he had projected to others. But I do think that he did suffer from arrogance, along with other characters like Anakin and Obi-Wan.

 

Sidious was correct about the Jedi council being arrogant.
They thought that their way and knowledge was 100% right.
They didnt even sense his presence when standing next to him.

He pulled the wool over the eyes of the Jedi for a long long time.

Sidious knew things about the force that all except Yoda couldnt even begin to comprehend.

 

Said it before, and feel compelled to say it again...

The term "arrogant" is thrown about WAY too promiscuously on this Board, IMHO...

I would lay dollars to donuts that the average person who watched the SW films would NOT find the Jedi arrogant in general, nor Yoda arrogant in particular. The average viewer, who has not been schooled with the various interviews and commentaries by GL and company, who has not been schooled to really TRY to FIND the "arrogance" in the Jedi, would instead see the story of a wise and decent group of Jedi Knights who were, yes, out-manuvered by a very clever and evil Sith Lord, and who finally FELL because Anakin Skywalker, the Chosen One, chose BADLY, gave in to temptation, and CHOSE evil over good. If GL and company truly wanted to present arrogance as the Jedi "sin" that led to their downfall, I respectfully suggest they did not do a good job of doing that in the movies as they stand.

It is only those of us who have been exposed to all the GL talk about "arrogance" who seem to feel compelled to constantly return to this theme. It is taken as a given, and invoked to cover just about everything. I have seen posters on this Board say that Obi-Wan's over-criticality towards Anakin is a sign of arrogance -- and others assert that when Obi-Wan holds to his faith in Anakin and says Anakin has never let him down, that THIS is arrogance. Some claim it was Jedi arrogance for them to agree to train Anakin, thinking they could overcome the troubles that would come from breaking their general rule of only training those they took in as infants... while others claim that the Jedi's overly rigid rules are where their arrogance lies - in other words, they are not flexible ENOUGH. On another thread, posters claim that when the Jedi are ambushed by Order 66, THIS is evidence of arrogance (they should have seen it coming and been ready!). Dabbling in politics? Arrogance. But wait... not realizing Palpatine was the Sith Lord earlier? Blinded by arrogance! ... But then again, when Mace went to confront Palpatine, THAT was arrogance... so I am not sure what good it would have done to detect him earlier, at any rate. Were the Jedi heroic when they went into the arena on Geonosis, to try to save Anakin, Obi Wan and Padme, and oppose Dooku and company? Nope. They were arrogant. And when the scriptwriters give Yoda a few "cool" quips to get a laugh from the audience -- and don't kid yourself, Yoda's tough talk was meant to do just that! *S* - THIS is now seen as evidence of "arrogance".

In short, because GL has floated this idea out there, it has become the "weapon of choice" for anyone with a bone to pick with the Jedi.

In truth, the most arrogant Jedi I saw in the series was none other than Anakin. And he was bested by one of the most humble of the Jedi, Obi Wan. Anakin brims with easily demonstrable arrogance -- which is what makes his moment of humility with Obi Wan in ROTS, when they have their last conversation as comrades, so noteworthy, surprising, and yes, touching. It shows what Anakin COULD have become had he not given in to his inner demons, his fear, his need for control, and yes, his ego.

Shadow

 

i agree,carnage,yoda was arrogant

 

Very well said and I agree with you.

 

Lucas, Yoda and Palpatine admit that the Jedi are arrogant. Even Obi-wan calls Anakin that. We've gone through this before. It's arrogance. They may have been outmanuvered, but they were arrogant to think that nothing bad would happen. They were arrogant to think that they could sniff out the Sith. They were arrogant to even think that the Sith were extinct. And they were arrogant to think that they could stop the Sith, given the way things were.

It is a theme in the Saga. Arrogance blinds the superior person. But the irony of it all is that while arrogance brought down the Jedi, it would bring down the Sith as well.

 

Yoda wasn't arrogant but he may have underestimated Sidious' power before he engaged him. Sidious only sais that to hurt Yoda's resolve; to shake his courage and damage his moral. It's part of the classic villainous mind games that most all of them play when their mind is their greatest weapon.

It has nothing to do with what was said by Yoda to Obi Wan three years earlier in Ep 2.

 

Yoda's no different from any other Jedi. He is old and experienced, more so. He thought that he was strong enough to defeat this Dark Lord, not Obi-wan. And rather than teaming up or finding another solution, he went ahead alone. He believed that his experience and wisdom would be enough to end his rule.

 

adding obi-wan wouldnt hav helped yoda at all. obi-wan would hav been a liability to yoda (like dooku - yoda). yoda was *slightly* arrogant, maybe, but not very. it was his duty to face sidious, like luke with vader, i would say.

edit: i must defend my master . . . (yoda)

 

With all due respect...

A lot of folks here seem to repeatedly confuse being mistaken with being arrogant. The two are NOT the same.

Want a very good example of Jedi arrogance? Try the reaction of the librarian to Obi Wan's questions in AOTC... if it isn't in our archives, it doesn't exist. No possibility of error, or ommision, or tampering, etc. That is clearly an arrogant attitude. So yes, right there, we see an example of an arrogant Jedi. You COULD argue that Obi Wan and Yoda are "arrogant" in refusing to believe there is any good left in Vader, by the time of EMPIRE and ROTJ... although I think a more fair assessment is tht they have given up hope and fallen victimg to despair..which, given all they have gone through, and all they have seen the galaxy go through over many years, because of Vader and Sidious, is pretty understandable.

But where else do we see it?

Yes, we hear references to it. But as I noted... GL has to SHOW it if he wants to make that a major theme. Frankly, the Jedi very OFTEN seem concerned that they are not as wise, as powerful, as discerning, as they might need to be. They worry about not being "good enough" to meet the challenges they face. They WORRY about becoming "arrogant". They talk about the Dark Side clouding their ability to read events and to foresee the future. This is the OPPOSITE of arrogance! This is what the modest, humble person does! It is, for example, Obi wan's HUMILITY that leads him to blame HIMSELF for Anakin's failing, just as it is Obi Wan's humility to praise his student when Anakin, in a VERY rare moment of humility himself, apologizes to Obi Wan.


Yoda repeatedly worries about the Jedi's ability to deal with challenges. He sounds cautionary notes about the training of Anakin (correct - even if it is the right thing to do, there is a lot of peril there), he is the one who feels the sense of impending danger at the end of AOTC, and so forth. A few timely, audience pleasing quips is not arrogance. And lets face it... his plan to have Obi Wan take on Vader worked out reasonably well. *S* Even if he was unable to take out Sidious AND the clone troopers at Sidious' beck and call!

Shadow

 

Yoda has a history of downplaying the achievements of the Skywalkers. Anakin was the major driving force behind the Republic being able to win the Clone Wars, and all Yoda had to say with regard to Anakin was, "A prophecy that misread could have been." The Jedi Order was rotten to the core with arrogance by the time of ROTS. Even if Darth Vader had not taken them out, the Jedi would have fallen eventually.

 

the dark side i sense in you, RKMeibalane.

 

It's interesting to consider how the actions of the Jedi featured in ROTS symbolized the arrognace that had crippled the Order. Mace Windu was foolish enough to believe that he would be able to arrest Palpatine without a problem, telling Anakin, "Wait in the Council chamber until we return." What he shold have told him was, "If you do not hear from us within three hours, you must assume that we are dead, and contact any suriving Council members and ask for assistance."

Yoda's actions near the film's conclusion were questionable, but I don't see those as being as arrogant as what Mace attempted. Yoda had no choice but to confront Palpatine alone, as Obi-Wan was on his way to intercept Vader before he had the chance to do anymore damage.

 

well, mace windu was panicked about the possibility of losing the entire jedi order. he rushed in and fell into sidious' trap. the jedi were the aggressive ones in RotS and sidious just laid back and let them struggle.