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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Your Favorite Prequel Movie and Why.

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by El_Machete12, Dec 21, 2012.

  1. Carbon1985

    Carbon1985 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Apr 23, 2013
    It's all opinion, so none of us are wrong. :) I just think fans overrate ROTS simply because Lucas crammed 60% of the PT plot points in there, so it is essentially the real red meat of the PT. Lucas talked in an interview how TPM had 20%, AOTC had 20% and ROTS had 60% of the plot points in his outline.

    Trust me, I had ROTS as my favorite PT movie in 2005 because there were so many scenes that we waited to see for years (The Duel, Yoda/Sidious Fight, Darth Vader being born, The extinction of the jedi, the fate of Padme, the birth of the twins, Palpatine taking power, etc.) It was the one PT movie I really looked forward to because this was going to answer all the questions. But after further inspection and repeat viewings, I find the movie more of a checklist of those plot points, rather then Lucas really delving into them, and that is probably because he only had 1 movie left. So when I say its overrated by the fans, I think they love the plot points of the movie (including myself) more then the movie itself, simply because it had the bulk of the best stuff we all wanted to see. And I think AOTC get underrated because of the love story, and people don't look at the movie as a whole.
     
  2. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    It's (unfortunately) the prequel I watch the least nowadays, specially due to the way it was treated on the latest home video release (well, and that fake Obi-Wan beard from the re-shoots doesn't help the immersion either). A shame really, since the whole sequence of Kamino is among my favourite of the whole saga, and as a big Christopher Lee fan, this is the movie that marks his entrance in the Star Wars mythos and defines his character.
     
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  3. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 13, 2011
    While I partially agree that ROTS does tend to get better reviews because most of the plot is in it (and it has darker themes), I still feel it is a more solid film than AOTC, and to an extent more meaningful than The Phantom Menace. TPM does feel more sincere to me than parts of 2 and 3, it feels more like the movie Lucas wanted to make, where AOTC tried to do something more complex and adult (with varying success) and ROTS just gave the viewers what they wanted, as you say. There are moments after Anakin's turn that I agree come off as a little forced; recalibrating the code to warn Jedi away from Coruscant screams "establishing tv show", and the discussion regarding where to send the twins seems more forced than it once did.
    But I believe Revenge of the Sith genuinely gives the saga something unique that the other five don't, and even on repeat viewings it is a far richer experience (for me) than most of the other episodes. Luke's temptation with the dark side in the OT seems more dangerous now with the added context. Vader doesn't match AOTC Anakin enough to really add the depth to the character that watching ROTS does. Stuff that is presented in ep3 isn't even touched upon in the other films, such as the Sith ability to create/sustain life.
    The movies as a collective whole are IMO far more complex with the formerly "missing" piece of ROTS. There is kind of an episodic "Master" theme I've noticed, where Anakin (then Luke) are pulled certain directions in different eps (Qui-Gon for TPM, Obi-Wan for AOTC, Obi-Wan vs Palpatine for ROTS, Obi-Wan's second attempt in ANH, Yoda in ESB, and Luke becoming his own Master and refusing to make The Emperor master again in ROTJ). I just think that Revenge of the Sith deserves the initial status it was given as the best of the prequels, it makes the other movies operatic in a way that the average prequel/sequel just doesn't do.
     
  4. Carbon1985

    Carbon1985 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Apr 23, 2013
    I have heard that point about TPM many times, and its an interesting subject when fellow fans bring it up. One of the theories I read years ago was that TPM was the movie Lucas always wanted to make, and the backlash from part of the fanbase made him switch gears which produced a different AOTC. The backlash from AOTC from part of the fanbase then produced ROTS, where Lucas was going to give the fans EVERYTHING they wanted in 2 hours.

    But I do wonder if TPM didn't get the backlash (whether it was deserved or not), would AOTC and ROTS been different movies? I hoping I can phrase this question right: What particular about TPM comes across as the movie Lucas wanted to make, that isn't in AOTC/ROTS. Is it style? characters? dialogue? plot? [face_thinking]
     
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  5. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 13, 2011
    It's very hard to say how close they were to the original vision. TPM, I think was going for more of a soap-opera vibe than AOTC, such as the fact scenes with Shmi and Anakin were quite sappy, but effective when you look at them in the context of where the characters are heading. I remember wondering why they were so sensitive in '99, but I appreciate that aspect of the film far more in retrospect.

    AOTC has more action than TPM, really, and some seems forced to me. I get the feeling the slow pacing of TPM affected the approach in the speed of AOTC and ROTS. Some find TPM boring. Personally I think the more extensive dialogue (such as from Qui-Gon and Palpatine/Sidious) outshines much of the dialogue in 2 and 3. Sidious has more to say in TPM than AOTC, and I think ep1 is better for it.

    Perhaps Jar Jar would have had a more prominent role in AOTC, maybe even ROTS. The fans were quite relentless with this character, he is kind of the TPM scapegoat afterall.
    I'm guessing Jango and Boba were put in AOTC to appease the OT fans, IMO it was a little forced, but who knows if this was planned already before the TPM backlash.

    Anakin's character being ten years older, while maybe following how the timeline was originally designed before this, I think tries too hard to make up for not seeing him older in TPM. I remember even thinking myself "yay Anakin has got a lightsaber", but with the six movie saga now complete (and plenty of saber action in ROTS) it is less of a positive. I mean, it was inevitable that Anakin has grown between films, but who knows what criticisms Lucas took to heart. The character arc the way it ended up came out a little schizo, he is compassionate and without greed in TPM, has become a little whiny and more headstrong in AOTC, then starts out noble in ROTS but turns for the worse. IMO the AOTC side of Anakin perhaps was in reaction to TPM criticisms. Lucas started his fall and some of the important character development here which was not deeply explored in TPM. Then his personality at the start of ROTS was maybe because of the backlash from AOTC. Or he has just matured because he is a Jedi [face_dunno] I do find his apparent growth at the start of ROTS adds to the tragedy.
     
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  6. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    I know I rate ROTS pretty high because of the conclusion of all of the plot points aside from the Rebellion in the OT are answered.
    I have problems with it but can overlook them easily. The fact that we got the answers to how Anakin fell and everything else set the OT up and wrapped up everything up to that point made it an awesome movie.
     
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  7. Darth Eddie

    Darth Eddie Jedi Master star 4

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    May 14, 2013
    What I think sets TPM apart so far for people is that it's a Star War in the singular. It shows you what the galaxy is like when nothing is going too badly for anyone (except Naboo), and thus a laughable opening crawl like "The Galactic Republic is in turmoil; taxation of trade routes is in dispute!"
    If you're going to show someone Episode I as their first Star Wars movie, I don't think it's a bad choice because it really shows you how the Star Wars universe works in the "latter-day classical period", and also what that universe is supposed to look like in the first place. (I happen to agree with GL that the special effects tech wasn't always up to snuff in the OT to portray the galaxy effectively but that's another thread entirely) From the first scenes, we see what role the Jedi play, how they go about their business, what kind of problems they're brought in to solve, and all that sort of stuff. So I guess TPM's "problem" as some people believe is that it very much struck out to be a unique experience, a primer to some about how wars in the stars function, and also uncompromising in its vision.
    Short version is, I don't think The Phantom Menace cares what people think about it.


    So that's my treatise on TPM. As for ROTS, I have to say that one's my least favorite prequel, and not because I especially dislike it for any of the same criticisms that are frequently cited. In fact it used to be my favorite prequel but it kind of soured on me after a while because there's just too much jammed in there, and I'm totally depressed by the time that movie is over. It's just not fun to watch; it's an ordeal. Most people call it the most emotionally impactful Star Wars movie, and I don't dislike it for those reasons, but it impacts with unpleasant emotions. Anakin's ordeal on Tatooine in AOTC I though was more poignant and draws a clearer through-line from Anakin to Vader than his characterization in ROTS necessarily did.

    [By the way I forgot to mention in my earlier post, HOW AWESOME is the return to the "garage of whining" in AOTC? Luke and Leia's parents talking in the same room where Luke will someday see Leia for the first time. ]
     
  8. Carbon1985

    Carbon1985 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Apr 23, 2013
    I think this is a huge reason why I like AOTC more then ROTS. I never bought the turn scene in ROTS (It think there is no grey area to that scene as I know people who totally bought it and love it, and people like me who never got it and never will.) I understood Anakin's motivations in AOTC as he just saw a pack of Sandpeople essentially kill his mother, so he flips out and takes the whole village down. That is a true motivation for revenge, so I never questioned his motives compared to the events that led up to his turn in ROTS.

    Now I don't want to derail this thread as I don't want people chiming in trying to convince me of the ROTS turn scene, but I think fans like me who favor AOTC over ROTS has alot to do with Anakin's motivations in each movie.
     
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  9. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

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    Nov 20, 2012
    ROTS for me.
     
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  10. Samnz

    Samnz Jedi Grand Master star 3

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    Sep 4, 2012
    I absolutely agree that AOTC is underrated.

    I think the way people see AOTC depends highly on the way they see the character of Anakin. Personally, I'm a big fan of Anakin's characterization and really appreciated that Lucas didn't make him a "bad ass" just that people could still rave about DV's awesomeness. But obviously a lot of people didn't like Anakin's "whiny" attitude and his way of addressing girls ;-)
    Some fans weren't fond of Anakin as a kid in TPM, too, but that film didn't rely on the character of Anakin to the extent that AOTC did. In TPM, even if you didn't care for kid Anakin, you still had Qui-Gon and the Queen who carried the film. AOTC's focus is much more on Anakin.

    I love both films. It depends on my mood. I'm also amazed at the many "flm noir" elements in AOTC. It's not just Obi-Wan detective mystery and the distinctiv contrast of light and dark on Kamino, it's also the locations (productions sites, urban territory...), the characters (which one isn't alienated here? ;-) , social contrasting (Anakin and Padmé), a bit of political commentary and even specific images like shadows and reflections of characters ....
    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    TPM is actually the SW film with the least amout of action (closely followed by ANH). AOTC has about as much action as TESB (both ROTS and ROTJ have more action scenes).
    What bugs me a bit about the action in AOTC is that the action is so concentrated. TPM, for example, has much more but also much shorter action scenes (except for the pod race). That might work a bit better.

    If you look at THX 1138 and Amercian Graffiti, then TPM and ANH are certainly the SW films that deal the most with themes that interest Lucas the most. That first step of a journey and breaking free is clearly some of Lucas's most favourite stories, also the aspects about parents...as Lawrance Kasdan once said:
    The other films just headed into different directions....
     
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  11. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer #1 Sabine Wren Fan star 7

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    Mar 26, 2013
    Personally I think it's a 3-way tie.

    OK if you made me choose it would be Revenge of the Sith. It IS Star Wars. I don't really know how else to say it.

    That said, on my favorite movies list, TPM is #14, AOTC is #6, and ROTS is #1. I really do like them all.
     
  12. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

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    I like them all more than ROTJ.
     
  13. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    Although I feel that AOTC is rated about right, I'm inclined to agree with this appraisal of ROTS. Certainly it would reflect my own response, which was initial adulation, followed by gradually waning favouritism as I examined it in more depth over time.
     
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  14. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 25, 2008
    AOTC is my favorite PT movie. And it's tied with ESB as my favorite Star Wars movie. I really enjoyed the combination of politics and romance in the story. And it has an epic quality about it, that is only matched by ESB. At least for me.
     
  15. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

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    It took me a very long time to warm over to AOTC. My 10 year old self didn't like the unresolved ending or the icky romance.
     
  16. Darth Eddie

    Darth Eddie Jedi Master star 4

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    May 14, 2013
    I thought I was alone!!!
     
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  17. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    I have major problems with all of them but RotS is still easily the best IMO. It's the only one where I feel genuine tension & real drama. TPM is just bland & AotC has some great stuff but is so uneven.
     
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  18. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 13, 2011
    I also find Aotc most uneven. The stuff with Shmi, and some of the themes established are interesting, but there are so many moments that take me out of it. The Phantom Menace I don't find bland however, I love the irony of seeing Vader as an innocent kid. And there is so much going on you have to be a fan to notice, its a rewarding experience to watch the film over and over. Aotc has some double meanings here and there but TPM I think is the film that leaves a lot to the viewer, something I really enjoy about it.
    But yeah, ROTS is the strongest I think. The characterisation is better and you really get a sense that there is something at stake.
     
  19. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

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    Good. Gooooood. You will now be my apprentice.
     
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  20. KashyyykTrooperCT-1903

    KashyyykTrooperCT-1903 Jedi Youngling

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    Dec 4, 2013
    Personally, I prefer clones over jedi because I like battles with guns rather than what the jedi do. I like ROTS because there are several big clone battles in it, my personal favorite being The Battle of Kashyyyk.
     
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  21. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005
    Solid posts, as ever, HD, but I feel I must say a few words in AOTC's defence...

    TPM is a bit more soap-y -- or even "Sunday School"-esque -- in some of its scenes, especially those between Anakin and Shmi. But some fans would definitely say that AOTC feels much more like a soap opera (the obvious target being the courting scenes between Anakin and Padme). Ep. II was even shot in Australia: land of the soaps (well, okay, so is the UK, but theirs tend to be more colourful, visually-speaking, at least; rather like AOTC is the most colourful/colour-conscious movie of the saga; in my opinion, anyway). "Sensitive". Good word. Yes, there's a gentle, sort of milquetoast poignancy to the scenes between Anakin and Shmi, quite unlike other "emotional" scenes of the saga. Those scenes *do* stand out more in retrospect. For all that, though, I like the skewed, oscillating landscape of AOTC, and think it's a good progression after the relatively light-hearted overture that is TPM.

    Hmm, well, AOTC is a lot more action-oriented than TESB, I think. I mean, the Kershner film has three action set-pieces (Battle of Hoth, asteroid chase, Luke vs. Vader), while AOTC has five (Coruscant speeder chase, fight in the rain, asteroid cat-and-mouse, droid factory, Battle of Geonosis (which is like another five action sequences rolled into one) << just reading all that back made me giddy). It does feel like Lucas decided to stock the film full, whether to appease a rankled (and very vocal) fanbase, or to satisfy his own tastes and see what he could really do with the digital tools -- and talented artists - available to him. I like that about AOTC, its ambition, but it may be laid on a bit thick for some.

    The point about the dialogue is interesting. We could probably have a whole thread about it. But then that goes for many of the points you raise. I will say that one notable difference between the way the movies handle or incorporate dialogue is that the dialogue has a more technobabble quality in TPM. Think of words and phrases like "dactaries", "midi-chlorians", "J-type 327 Nubian", "the living Force", and arcane remarks like "Sebulba flashed me with his vents", "Will you defer your motion to allow a committee to explore the validity of your accusations?", etc. It's all kind of technical and a bit abstract: there are echoes of discovering Star Wars for the first time through the original film (that sense of confusion and wonder at everything being a little off the beaten track) and even nods to the abstruse chatter that litters the soundtrack of "THX". In comparison, AOTC offers lines like, "The shifter broke", "Your clones are very impressive", "Good call, my young padawan!" and "Much to learn you still have". Obviously, I'm being a little facetious, but the dialogue and pacing of AOTC is a bit more like a comic book. It's huge fun, but it does feel that GL isn't being quite as creative with his dialogue in Ep. II, even though he's up to many of his classic word tricks (well, I say "classic", because they're classic to me, but 99% of people seem never to have noticed them). I'll add that I think he got even more drawn into "visual storytelling" in AOTC and decided to really try and and let the images do the talking.

    Qui-Gon is a stronger presence in TPM, in a lot of ways, than Obi-Wan is in AOTC. Though, that is somewhat by design, and does provide an effective contrast between the movies, and I also think it suggests a number of salient criticisms of Anakin's time in the Jedi Order under a less-experienced mentor. The whole of the galaxy is taking a tumble in AOTC. We can perceive that, in part, through Qui-Gon's absence. In the vacuum that is left, several characters come along, where Anakin is concerned, to fill it: Palpatine, Obi-Wan, Padme, Yoda, and even, to some extent, Jar Jar. Liam Neeson is such a great actor, though, that he does improve TPM with his presence; it feels, on a basic dramatic level (and even many visual levels) like a more mature movie because he's in it (and in the way that he's in it). Palpatine is more treacherous in TPM, since he does spin some tricky verbal webs, which is a facet of the character clearly reprised in ROTS: first it's the wife who's tricked, then the husband. AOTC goes a different way with Palpatine, like a lot of facets, and joins the dots a little differently. Perhaps nothing better illustrates this than the fact that the scene between Amidala and Palpatine in TPM was almost the first scene shot, while the one between Anakin and Palpatine -- shorter and less wordy than the TPM scene -- was added by Lucas in pick-ups, and only after he felt that he really needed at least one scene where Anakin and Palpatine are actually shown together.

    I'll go with that, though, because it gives the SW galaxy a renewed vitality. For me, there's a very big feel to the canvas of AOTC, and dialing down some of the more prominent character aspects of TPM allows other aspects to shine. Palpatine isn't pushing so hard in AOTC, for example, and while I speculated before that losing the presence of Ian McDiarmid for much of the picture was a loss for the film, now I find it quite refreshing to see Palpatine and Sidious moved more into the background as the young ones step forward and take centre-stage. The puppet master can afford to be a bit more laid back here as his elaborate plan begins to cook and takes on a life of its own. I wonder, if people get their first taste of SW through AOTC, would they even have the slightest clue that Palpatine is pulling all the strings, or that he and Darth Sidious are one?

    Fans were quite relentless with Jar Jar, but if anything, that seems to have encouraged GL to stick his heels in all the more. Instead of giving viewers less Jar Jar, he gave them more, and decided to keep Jar Jar's original dialect (he was meant to have a more diplomatic way of speaking in Ep. II). It should further be noted that other major character and design elements from TPM only have basic cameos in AOTC: e.g., the yellow N-1 starfighters, Watto, Shmi, a few eerie callbacks to podracing, Anakin's one-time use of a qualifier ("This is a shortcut, I think"), and so on. The galaxy is shifted in AOTC, so the film shifts with it. Although, I guess that's a tautology. But if you probe behind the curtain a little, you can see that there may have been some indecision about how much of TPM to allude back to. Threepio, for instance, was meant to still be "naked" and Padme was going to give him his coverings, but at the last minute it was decided that Threepio should already have his outer plating when Anakin and Padme show up at the homestead. Enough of TPM shows up in some form in AOTC to make it feel connected -- the recycled music is a pretty weird one -- without it being pulled down too much, in my opinion, with the mythology of the previous movie. And since Jar Jar was pretty tied to the hip of Qui-Gon in the previous film, he was another creature cut loose when Qui-Gon died. Anakin might have had a similar fate to Jar Jar (this is sorta the point of the two being seen together, I think) had the Jedi not taken him in. But I guess they were always going to take him in, while Jar Jar is just a hapless alien, more out-of-place than ever in the world of politics, drudgery, and a worsening social climate.

    Boba and Jango... Lucas had some vague notion that Boba was tied to the clones ever since he used the character in TESB. Well, I suppose it was always kind of a toss-up between him and Lando. It might be a bit of a ploy, but it works brilliantly in the finished film, so I'll let him off. I mean, that's WHY Boba's really there, with his cloned dadda, is it not? The parallels between him and Anakin are freaky. If you notice, this is another "diminishment" motif: just as Jar Jar recedes I-II-III, so does the "kid" element. TPM overtly spends a lot of time with a kid character who has a villainous destiny, while II is a lot more brief about it. And III? Apart from some early what-if-ing over the possibility of Han appearing on Kashyyyk (and his destiny is, at worst, anti-hero, not villain), there's really no-one there to carry that mantle. By reprising the "Anakin" thing with Boba, Lucas is reminding viewers that he started his saga with kid-Anakin for a reason, and he explores some new issues along the way, but there's no need to keep going with it in III; it doesn't fit that milieu. War comes along and forces everyone to grow up a bit, even artificially, as the age-accelerated clones underscore; and Boba, an "unaltered" clone, is completely frozen out of the prequel narrative: the very last image of him clutching his father's helmet on the lip of light and darkness is a brilliant coda in itself. Any less, you don't really get the point across; any more, you overdo it and waste critical screen-time. I think Lucas really found the perfect balance.

    You could still see all that as pandering, though. It all boils down to personal opinion, really. I also get this slightly unshakeable feeling that Lucas was working harder to throw in stuff that would please people in AOTC. Like he was trying to make up for hurt feelings? The Lucasfilm ad blurb, for when the title was announced, is good evidence in this direction: "It harkens back to the sense of pure fun, imagination and excitement that characterised the classic movie serials and pulp space fantasy adventures that inspired the Star Wars saga." On the other hand, the "twist" is that some fans took an instant disliking to the film title, and it does seem like the most nakedly B-movie-like. The behind-the-scenes book for AOTC also collects a quote from Lucas in which he flatly states that AOTC is the most brazen / melodramatic of the entire series. It seems, then, that if he DID actually choose some elements that he thought might mend a rift, he was also doing it in his own unique style with a strong sensibility driving and melding these elements into something artsy and bold. It's too simplistic, in my book, to say it comes down to placating an angry mob, in effect. I simply don't think that's how Lucas works.

    The character has obviously had a big growth spurt -- but is all that growth such a positive thing? "My goodness, you've grown". The Kaminoans are a rather excellent visual pun on this notion of improbable upwards improvement. Just say what you see: bobbing alien heads with feeble necks (and what I metaphorically see: content where Anakin is frustrated, yet no more creative, ultimately, than Anakin finds himself within the Jedi Order). Anakin's gaining of a lightsaber is a not-insignificant observation. In TPM, a lightsaber is a powerful talisman to Anakin: a symbol of masculine confidence and otherworldly power. In AOTC, he has one of his own, but acquiring this object hasn't made him especially happy or massively enhanced his inner dynamism. Instead, his personality is subsumed through this weapon, and Lucas even makes a joke about it when Anakin's saber goes flying through a Coruscant night-sky and Obi-Wan catches it and places it down next to him, as if Anakin's saber at his side in the speeder is a suitable replacement for Anakin himself ("This weapon is your life"). As a visually symphonic film about dehumanization and control, I think AOTC is a pretty rich and rewarding piece of cinema. It's no TPM, but it's not trying to be -- and I think that's to the advantage of both pictures.

    Just a gentlemanly disagreement, HD. And I know you will take it no other way. I find it interesting that you have the sentiments you do. Makes your take on the movies all the more special; and generates some pretty nice conversation along the way. Peace! [face_peace]
     
  22. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

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    Nov 20, 2012
    I love TPM for nostalgia reasons.
     
  23. CT1138

    CT1138 Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2013
    RotS. It's what the entire PT had been leading up to, and I was enthralled the moment the opening crawl left the screen, as the war drums played along to the Force Theme and we saw the Clone Wars in their height. When I first saw it in theaters, I was actually surprised how much, well, darker, Anakin seemed from his AotC portrayal. He seemed a lot more serious and not as goofy and didn't defy Obi-Wan as often. You could really tell he and the rest of the Galaxy had been through war.
     
  24. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer #1 Sabine Wren Fan star 7

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    Mar 26, 2013
    I like them all more than Empire.
     
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  25. Ezekial

    Ezekial Jedi Master star 3

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    May 24, 2002
    Either Phantom Menace or Revenge of the Sith.

    Phantom Menace, probably. Gungans were genuinely delightful, and the final fight scene with Maul had some real effort put into the camera work which I appreciated.

    Attack of the Clones was atrocious OTOH. So much wrong with that film.