Discussion Your predictions about the reception of the ST

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Spoilers Allowed' started by Seagoat, Aug 15, 2013.

Weeks
0
0
Days
0
0
Hours
0
0
minutes
0
0
seconds
0
0
  1. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4

    But you're talking about people who were mostly children when the OT came out and was the biggest phenomenon in history. Of course they know those characters. The PT was never going to make the cultural splash that the OT did because it came out in a very different time where the impact of the OT had already been felt and digested throughout cinema for decades. And despite this, many children who grew up/are growing up with the PT love it as much or more than the OT and will continue to elevate the status of it in years to come.
    Last edited by mavjade, Jan 5, 2014
  2. DealAlterer Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2012
    star 1
    What makes you think the PT wasn't in a position to make a cultural splash? Do you remember 1999 in the months leading up to TPM? It was like the biggest thing ever. The stage was set like no other move in history.

    How do you explain the cultural splash made by The Dark Knight then? Batman had been around for almost 70 years at that point and Batman cinema had been around for roughly 50 if you include the original Adam West movie. Generations upon generations had already digested the Batman mythos heading into 2008 and yet The Dark Knight went on to become an instant classic in spite of it. If we're to go by your logic that film never had a chance either. Instead it's arguably the most iconic adaptation of the character to date.

    The PT didn't leave a lasting impression because the films themselves didn't leave a lasting impression. And while I'm sure there are a bunch of kids out there that grew up on the PT, I'm also willing to bet that same generation also grew up on things that proved to be more culturally significant like the Harry Potter movies and the Spiderman movies (among other things too). The fact is the PT had some serious competition and - in retrospect - wasn't the defining fantasy escape for that generation of children like the originals were.

    The Star Wars brand as it stands today draws it's value from the originals, pure and simple. I apologize if it sounds like I'm just hating on the prequels but I'm trying to sound as objective as possible here. The prequels were by and large forgotten with time unless you were a huge SW fan.
    Last edited by DealAlterer, Jan 4, 2014
    Pfluegermeister likes this.
  3. skyrimcat9416 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2013
    star 1

    I think you really REALLY underestimate the popularity and success of the PT.

    And I honestly I could really could give a damn about some Star Wars-themed ESPN or Deal or No Deal specials that aired on TV years back. That does not in any way at all prove that the PT wasn't popular or successful at all.

    What you are trying to say is that everyone in the world loved the Originals and nobody liked the Prequels, and that the PT was nothing more than an afterthought. When that is completely untrue based many fans on this site and millions of other Star Wars fans.

    If these movies were so bad and forgetable like you claim-then how come they made so much money at the Box Office? How come the Star Wars franchise sells and make billions off of toys based on the Prequels? How come the Blu-Ray sells were extremely high for the Whole Entire Saga and why did people even bother buying the WHOLE SAGA if the Prequels were such forgetable films and "didn't leave a lasting impression" or "didn't live up to the Star Wars brand" according to you?

    You are basing your opinions based off of what you have read on the internet and some Star Wars TV Specials that nobody hears cares about. You also talk as if you speak for everybody.

    You would be surprised by how many like the PT or even prefer over them Originals. Not everybody thinks films from the 70's and 80's with terrible special effects and use of puppets is cool and the greatest thing ever you know.

    I knew a guy that I was discussing Star Wars with, that while he enjoyed the Originals, he enjoyed the Prequels more and had no problem admitting that the Prequels were far better movies.

    There are just as many hardcore and causal fans of Star Wars that prefer the Prequels just as there are just as many hardcore and casual fans that prefer the Originals.

    Hell, Star Wars wouldn't be where it is today without the PT. You do know that by the Late-80's/Early-1990's, Star Wars was starting to fad out in popularity from the Public and was starting to become a fad of the 70's and 80's. It wasn't until the announcement of the Prequels-that Star Wars began to blow up and become relevent again.

    If the PT had never been release-I don't believe Star Wars would be as big and popular among everyone and younger people like it is today.
    Last edited by skyrimcat9416, Jan 4, 2014
  4. son_of_skywalker03 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2003
    star 4
    Your post is exactly why I said I was no longer going to bother with him. Once he made his statement about the PT "falling into obscurity" I was done. I'd suggest you do that same, lest you get roped into a circular argument where one half (his) is completely devoid of logic, and is nothing more than an emotional response.
    skyrimcat9416 likes this.
  5. Seagoat PT Trivia Tournament Game Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2013
    star 4
    The OT has been around for decades and has had a lot more time to "digest", so to speak, with the general public. The PT is barely a decade old. I guarantee you in time, it will be just as well known and referenced as the OT.

    Also might I point out that, when they were first released, each episode of the OT was panned for many of the same reasons as the PT today and received poor critic reviews and were received with mixed reactions. Now they're viewed as some of the best films of all time. Watch the PT follow the same routine, if not also the ST.
  6. son_of_skywalker03 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2003
    star 4
    I've tried pointing this out to many a person that hates the PT. Trust me, it usually falls upon deaf ears.
    FRAGWAGON, skyrimcat9416 and Seagoat like this.
  7. Cushing's Admirer Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 7
    I the ST will be a pretty mixed bag. Really I think SW always has been. Some will love it, some hate it, some be indifferent, and some see both positives and negatives. If it has modern themes it will likely appeal to the younger children, young people and modernists. If it's laden with CGI it'll likely appeal to the 'effects and imagery crazied yet usually poor on story' crowd. If it deals with old or new themes I think it has the best chance of appeal to the most people. I know some fans are pretty disenchanted with SW right now. I hope Disney is careful.
    El Jedi Colombiano likes this.
  8. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2012
    star 2
    Like many people, I'm confident that the Sequel Trilogy will received better than the prequels, but not as well as the Original Trilogy. And they'll probably deserve that reputation as well.

    And the prequels, faded into obscurity? Don't make me laugh. You can find complaints about them strewn across ever corner of nerdom, even today, eight years after the last one was released. I bet I could avoid specifically Star Wars websites and still find a reference to them every day. Every single sci-fi fan has a lengthy rant prepared in frothing criticism (or, more rarely, defence) of them that they can recite at a moment's notice. Trust me, if they were obscure, everybody would be a lot happier.
    Pfluegermeister likes this.
  9. Airseven Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2013
    star 1
    Relative to the PT, which when viewed today can barely be considered a major box office production, I think the new films will be off the charts. Phantom/Clones/Sith are so comically terrible that JJ's vision will gain inherent hype simply by comparison.
    Last edited by Airseven, Jan 4, 2014
  10. Darth PJ Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
    star 5
    It's more about general popularity and overall appreciation (as you allude to in another post). If Ep VII has big box office, which it will, that will have just as much to do with the popularity/success of the prequels as it does the popularity/success of the OT. Point being, as in your Superman example, brand recognition doesn't automatically equate to box office - especially if the last film (or films) was regarded as a turkey... But as the prequels were (for the most part) hugely popular/successful, that pretty much guarantees that they'll be a big box office for at least Ep VII. If dislike of the prequels is so widespread (as some would have us believe), Ep VII will struggle because interest would have been so soured... and deep down (as much as some would not like to admit it) we know that this will not be the case... because Star Wars is still hugely popular (both OT and PT).
    I think you are deluding yourself... I bet you're a middle aged man right??? ;)

    With anyone under the age of 25 it's mostly the prequel characters (or prequel counterparts) that resonate. That's why most Star Wars merchandising sensibly and pragmatically blends OT and PT. Ewan McGregor's Obi-Wan is usually favoured in merchandise over Alec Guinness... As is digital, lightsabre wielding, Yoda. Of course Luke Skywalker, Darth Vader, R2D2 are more iconic and culturally significant (the OT was more culturally significant)... but just because you don't like the new characters/new versions (or films) unfortunately doesn't mean the rest of the world agrees. For many people Darth Sidious, Qui-Gon Jinn etc. were there first cinematic contact with Star Wars characters. I have young kids who love Star Wars, but don't connect to Han, Leia, old Obi-Wan at all... they want more Anakin, Maul, Grievous, young Obi-Wan etc. and, in my experience, this seems to be the norm and not the exception with kids brought up on the PT (which they automatically gravitate towards) and the TCW and Lego games. That's the reality my friend, regardless of which set of movies you prefer or which may actually be 'better'.
    Last edited by Darth PJ, Jan 5, 2014
  11. Darth PJ Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
    star 5
    Double post...
    Last edited by Darth PJ, Jan 5, 2014
  12. DealAlterer Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2012
    star 1
    TPM turns 15 this year.

    If it hasn't happened yet, it's never going to happen. The PT will never have the same social standing as the OT. Surely even the most diehard PT fans can admit that.
    kubricklynch and Pfluegermeister like this.
  13. Darth PJ Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
    star 5
    I don't think anyone is arguing that... but the PT not being as cinematically/culturally as significant as the OT certainly doesn't invalidate it. It doesn't have to be as important as the OT. It certainly hasn't disappeared, and it certainly is STILL popular (like it or not). :)
  14. DealAlterer Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2012
    star 1
    Actually if you read his post, that's exactly what he's arguing.

    The general public that exists beyond the walls of Star Wars fandom has definitely moved on. You can't comfortably make a prequel reference in general circles and assume anyone is gonna know what you're talking about. There are no "classic" moments or memorable scenes that resonate.

    If I had to pick something, I'd argue that the single most iconic moment that came from the prequels was that image of Darth Maul igniting his double edged lightsaber. I won't lie, for whatever reason that image stuck with me - as I'm sure it did others - throughout the years. But were talking about a scene that lasts all but a few seconds within the landscape of a near 9 hour trilogy.

    And once again I'm sure YOU guys hold more from the prequels near and dear to your hearts. But you guys are also Star Wars fans and have probably seen those movies countless times.
    Last edited by DealAlterer, Jan 5, 2014
  15. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2012
    star 2
    I'd say that, if you're a fan of the prequels, you can't comfortably make a prequel reference in general circles because everyone is gonna know what you're talking about.

    When I talk about Star Wars with my friends in real life, the conversation inevitably turns to the prequels. Trust me, no one has forgotten them. Infamy can be just as strong as renown.
    Last edited by Jedi Comedian, Jan 5, 2014
    DealAlterer likes this.
  16. FRAGWAGON Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    ST saves Star Wars from the eeeevil George Lucas. Watch for it and have a chuckle.
  17. mavjade It's so FLUFFY Fanfic & New Movies Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2005
    star 6
    This is not the place to argue PT vs. OT.
    Echo-07 likes this.
  18. Darth PJ Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
    star 5
    And I reiterate what I stated before... I bet you are a middle aged man (older than me anyways) who mainly relates to people of your own age. I only have to watch television tonight to see several references to Star Wars and the prequels. One, a Vodafone advert with a PT Yoda... The second, an advert for a Star Wars reference magazine... with Darth Maul et al. The third, a BBC 3 comedy where a character was dressed as Jango for a convention.
  19. DealAlterer Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2012
    star 1
    Lol I'm not a middle aged man. I'm 28 years old. I got into Star Wars when I was about 8 and I was 14 when TPM was released.
    Darth PJ likes this.
  20. darklordoftech Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    Might the ST be hated for not being Thrawn?
  21. Doom Trooper Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2014
    star 1
    I think it'll probably be better received overtime and viewed as being better than the prequels but not the original trilogy, but I do see the films being somewhat divisive among fans at first for a while.
  22. Fives_Says_No_To_Sixes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2013
    star 3

    I agree with you that most of the public sees Star Wars as the OT....It is very obvious that you are correct about public perception of "Star Wars" when you look at parodies and "star wars themed" episodes....HOWEVER, I work at a high school, and the more and more kids that I talk about star wars have no idea about the OT...it astonishes me. I mention Han Solo and they go, "who??" But when I say Jar Jar Binks, they know all about him!!! And when I talk to even younger kids (like my nephews) they only know about captain rex and the clone wars as star wars...its all about generations. Right now, everyone making everything grew up with the OT...thats all they knew...20 years from now, it'll be different.

    The ST and resulting spin-off films will become much more saturating IMO and Star Wars will turn into a franchise like James Bond - the majority of the public will only be familiar with what is currently out, while those who are more "into the franchise," will know everything else.
  23. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    You know, I agree that the PT hasn't made nearly as big an impact in popular culture as the OT. But I would say it's misleading to say it has had no impact.

    I'll never forget the episode of Hannah Montana where Miley and her boyfriend's code names for each other were Queen Amidala and Anakin.

    Now, my first thought was, "That is not a couple whose romance I would want to recreate, much as I love the PT."

    But then I realized that this series is targeted to very young viewers and thus chose a romance that they might be familiar with.

    I thought it was interesting, to say the least.
    El Jedi Colombiano and Darth PJ like this.
  24. Pfluegermeister Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2003
    star 4
    Indeed, and I have several examples of that to bring up. But that's effectively admitting that the PT is only known by the general public for its faults; furthermore, that's all the general public is ever reminded of. When you hear talk of it in pop culture, outside our circle, how much praise of it do you hear? Granted, you hear jokes about the OT too, but they're usually more couched in something like respect. Such jokes are usually about characters and situations from the films, and not so much about the quality or reception of the films themselves. They're the kind of jokes you expect about a successful film. But the PT? When you turn on Big Bang Theory, for instance (one among many examples), do they make pro-prequel jokes? Nope, just more Jar Jar jokes where the character's depicted in a derogatory manner, or else jokes about the perceived failure of the films themselves. For that matter, how many jokes about Lucas-related matters in general (again, outside our bubble) are positive these days? On the same show, Sheldon refuses to watch TCW out of order because, "I prefer to be disappointed in the order George Lucas intended;" Howard wants everyone to sit down to watch the saga on Blu-Ray and says that if they don't hurry and watch it soon, "George Lucas is going to change it again." These are all just jokes, and any one of them would mean nothing; but add them all up, and one has to concede that the cumulative effect has been tremendously destructive.

    THAT'S the uphill battle Disney is now compelled to fight because Lucas damaged his own brand, and he did it repeatedly, so much so that the driving narrative of pop culture regarding George Lucas these days is always some variation on "he's going to change it again," or "he's going to disappoint me," or "he's going to ruin something." One can be offended by that sentiment, but I and like-minded fans didn't create a false perception out of whole cloth, nor did the media: this was something Lucas brought on himself, with his own actions and decisions, him and no one else. And though it is indeed a touchy subject here, the big elephant in the room is that the reception of the PT was and is part of that current perception of Lucas, of LFL, and of the franchise as presently understood. The PT was the last major film-related event to come out of LFL, and so that's what's on people's minds regarding the franchise. When Episode VII is close to release in late 2015, what will the late night comedians probably be talking about? Jar Jar. Not the new films or all the wonderful potential they have, but the lightning rod of criticism for the previous films. Same with critics and reviewers: they can be absolutely counted on to hold up the new films to the PT and draw a comparison. It's an entirely predictable human reaction, and we'd be naive to assume it won't happen, or that whatever publicity campaign Disney/LFL puts on for Episode VII will entirely eclipse it when it happens.

    It's not hating when that happens; it's human nature. If anything, the only hatred involved is hate for failure of any kind, which is proper for a species that correctly prioritizes success over failure: it's considered good to succeed in something; it's considered bad to fail in something. It's a primal concern, hard-wired into us through millions of years of evolution - for our distant ancestors, success even in very simple things meant survival and failure often meant death. It's SO hard-wired into us that even small issues, which have nothing to do with survival, are subject to it; even today, in an environment where basic survival isn't a concern, if someone fails for something, that failure gets remembered as surely as any success, often more so. And those failures can stay with you, even when offset by positive achievements: 1957 was decades ago, after all, but people still remember that Ford made the Edsel, the biggest flop it's ever had; you may not know Vinko Bogataj by name, but people still remember him as the "Agony of Defeat" guy who wiped out on a ski jump in 1970 and ended up on the opening of ABC's Wide World of Sports for years* (by contrast, no one remembers his successes at all); how many people remember Richard Nixon's political achievements, as opposed to those who remember that he got caught up in Watergate and was forced to resign? Do people remember anything Clinton did other than Monica Lewinsky? Failures stick to you, people. George Lucas isn't immune.

    So, no, as you said, the PT isn't obscure at all, it really is famous; it's what it's famous for that's at issue here. As you correctly put it, it would indeed be more accurate to say that it's infamous. And regardless of anything we here say or do, that infamy hasn't faded (or else TPM-3D would have been far more successful), and isn't likely to in the next two years, and it does indeed risk becoming a factor in people's reception of the ST.

    *Okay, just in case you don't remember, here's Vinko Bogataj proving Jedi Comedian's point: failure endures, and infamy can be just as strong as renown:

    Last edited by Pfluegermeister, Jan 7, 2014
  25. Darth PJ Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
    star 5
    I think your sample is quite selective and not really represenatative of 'normal' people... because I think most people (outside of fans) can't really distinguish between the films - regardless of wether they have more of a preference for the 'originals'. And I think you misjudge the example from The Big Bang Theory... they are a bunch of freaks, social misfits - a characature of the type of people who can't find a sense of perspective when it comes to things like Star Wars, Star Wars etc. To think that this joke is reflective of the prequels shortfalls is to not only miss the joke, but to actually be the butt of the joke (not you personally).