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Discussion Your predictions about the reception of the ST

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by Seagoat , Aug 15, 2013.

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  1. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    Good call my young Padawan... That's when it works best (IMO)... the battle of Yavin, Luke versus Vader on Cloud City, Maul versus Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon, the battle of Geonosis, Order 66 etc. etc.
     
  2. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    I don't think it's wise to refer to one of the mods as "my young Padawan".
     
    Darkslayer likes this.
  3. FRAGWAGON

    FRAGWAGON Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2012
    Star Wars is iconic, not logocentric. Dialogue is for Kevin Smith movies.

    In Lucas movies, dialogue is sound design.
     
  4. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Dialogue is for plays. Visual juxtaposition is for film (and comic strips). Unfortunately, Lucas found it necessary to include expository, rather than dramatic enhancement, dialogue in some of his movies. It's the expository part, having characters explain what's going on, which distracts from the visual storytelling experience, that caused the sour reception. It reminds you that you're watching a movie. As long as Abrams doesn't rely on characters explaining the situation (and there's no indication he will), I predict it will be well received.
     
  5. Cyreides

    Cyreides Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 19, 2014
    I think it's going to do well enough for this trilogy to be finished, but possibly not well enough for the other trilogy to be made.

    All of the not so subtle attempts to shun everything to do with the PT and to "fix" what went "wrong" with them is going to inevitably blow up in J.J.'s face when he fails to please the unpleaseable OT fans and puts off the PT fans and pretty much everyone else for phoning it in like that.
     
  6. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    I think it's a bit of a cliche when people state 'show it don't tell it'. The truth is, visual medium or not, there's no hard rule. Ben Kenobi's speech (ANH) re. the Clone Wars, the 'dark times' etc. works to paint visual imagery that's personal to the viewer. Similarly, Palpatine recounting the story of Plageuis the Wise to Anakin is another great moment. The PT, in particular, actually contains very little in terms of specific exposition... some dodgy dialogue for sure, but much of that isn't that expositionary in nature.
     
  7. FRAGWAGON

    FRAGWAGON Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 3, 2012
    All six have moments of clunky exposition. None of that matters because they have the greatest action sequences ever shown in a movie theater.
     
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  8. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd The Man / Also Known as Bazinga'd star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Here is my one prediction, I know will be accurate..........I will love them.
     
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  9. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Don't get me wrong. Good dialogue or well-delivered dialogue (or both) can enhance the drama, hence my acknowledgement of dramatic enhancement dialogue. However, when the filmmaker can tell the story through the juxtaposition of images, it's infinitely more powerful and dynamic. The discovery of Uncle and Aunt burnt to a crisp kick starts Luke's journey a lot more powerfully than the knowledge that Vader killed his father. It's not that dialogue can't add to the meaning, drama, or emotion of the piece, it's that it isn't essential to telling the story cinematically. Spices can add to the flavor and enjoyability of scrambled eggs, but they aren't essential to making scrambled eggs. Bad spices can make the experience of scrambled eggs less enjoyable. Even more so when the bad spices were added to make up for bad eggs. Whether or not the visuals were sufficient for telling the prequel story well, it seems like Lucas didn't think they and tries to make up for it with expository dialogue. Dialogue such as "we'll have to land somewhere to refuel and repair the ship," "remember, Obi-Wan, if the prophesy is true, your apprentice is the only one who can bring balance to the Force", and the entire scene of dialogue between Qui-Gon and Anakin about midichlorians is what have oft been criticized in the negative reception of the PT. I've yet to see the opera scene criticized.
     
  10. FRAGWAGON

    FRAGWAGON Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 3, 2012
    And you totally forgot the music.
     
  11. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 1, 2012
    We about the music?
     
  12. DarthTunick

    DarthTunick SfC Part IV Commissioner star 10 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2000


    As much as I love The Saga, that can be a matter of debate.





    Such as?
     
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  13. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    I think you're being a tad selective if you don't mind me saying... The OT has just as much expositional dialogue...

    "The battle station is heavily shielded and carries a firepower greater than half the star fleet. It's defenses are designed around a direct large-scale assault. A small one-man fighter should be able to penetrate the outer defence".

    "Rouge Group, use your harpoons and tow cables. Go for the legs. It might be our only chance of stopping them".

    "We have stolen a small Imperial shuttle. Disguised as a cargo ship and using a secret Imperial code, a strike team will land on the moon and deactivate the shield generator". Etc. etc. ;)
     
  14. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    "The audience will believe anything they aren't given a reason to disbelieve". The PT dialogue I quoted reminds the audience they are watching a movie because there's no dramatic context in which the dialogue would actually need to be said. The three you quoted from the OT may be considered expositional but they aren't distractingly so because they're things that would actually need to be said in those situations. Hearing battle instructions reminds you that you're amongst fighters readying for battle. Hearing a reiteration of a prophesy that every character on screen already knows reminds you that you're an audience member being told what to think.
     
  15. Lord Miggler

    Lord Miggler Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 6, 2013
    I would also like to see this elaborated on further, to my mind I recall Abrams talking about trying increase the use of real sets and real locations where possible but this as much an indication of how the man likes to work as it is an attempt to ensure they don't replicate the problems of the prequels. Have we actually heard enough at this stage for that to even be suggested ? I personally would have to say no.
     
  16. Maul95

    Maul95 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 6, 2013

    According to this, I don't think he will fortunately.
     
    Darkslayer likes this.
  17. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2013
    They were random examples. I could have cited plenty from ANH alone... The kind of dialogue along the lines of "We must go to location A to do task B and meet person C" type of thing. As I said, I think you're being a tad selective... expositional dialogue is expositional dialogue. There's just as much in the OT as there is in the PT. I certainly think TESB contains the best dialogue overall, and TPM/ROTJ the lesser... but that's another conversation.

    I don't really think that will come to pass so much... JJ's Star Trek films had lots of virtual/semi virtual sets and his location shooting (IMHO) was as poor as I've seen in a big adventure movie. For films that could be set anywhere, it seemed like everything took place in downtown L.A. I personally found that really lazy and disappointing.
     
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  18. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Some expositional dialogue works in the dramatic context it's placed in, others do not. For more on what I mean by this, please re-read my last post carefully. if it's too complicated or not worth your time, you can simply say so, but unilaterally saying all expositional dialogue is the same without bothering to address the distinction that was actually made is a bit of a one-sided conversation, no?
     
  19. FRAGWAGON

    FRAGWAGON Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2012
    The question is how can he possibly have more real locations than the Prequels.
    But Trek takes place in our galaxy, our Earth. Not as big of a deal to have more mundane of a backdrop.
     
  20. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 1, 2012
    More use of real sets and locations, not more locations.
     
  21. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 31, 2013
    Very little of the original series took place on Earth... For my money it just shows the enormous gulf in imagination and vision between the original series and JJ's version. He could have taken Star Trek anywhere... He took the lazy and predictable path. Still, it made money and people got rich so who gives a ****?

    As opposed to 'surreal' sets? The prequels had real sets and real locations... Or do you mean more shooting in LA parking lots, offices and JJ's back garden in LA??? Inspired filmmaking...
     
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  22. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    For my part, I'm merely correcting FRAGWAGON on his apparent misapprehension of the statement. "More use of X" doesn't mean "more X".

    But to respond to your post, I'll say that regardless of whether or not the prequels had many real sets and locations, they also made extensive use of virtual sets, i.e. sets that are created, entirely or in part, in a computer. To put it more simply, the PT used a lot more blue/green screen than the OT. It seems Abrams is planning to cut down on the use of green/blue screen, or virtual sets.
     
  23. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 31, 2013
    Not aimed at you or being dismissive of your post, but I'd take Kamino, Coruscant or Mustafar any and every day of the week over those uninspired 'real' sets in Star Trek 09 and Into Darkness. Don't get me wrong, they are not the worst thing ever to grace a cinema screen... but Vulcan, Starfleet headquarters, Kronos were so by the book and dull. But if unimaginative and bland is what audiences want then so be it I suppose... :(
     
  24. Darth_Articulate

    Darth_Articulate Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 1, 2012
    It seems that your concern isn't so much about real vs. virtual sets, but rather Abrams' imagination vs. Lucas'. I don't see what difference it makes in that respect whether the sets are created by hand or by pixel. The imagination they come from will still be the same. You might take consolation, however, in the idea that it's highly likely the Ep. 7 worlds were for the most part already dreamt up before Abrams even came on the scene. Possibly even 36+ years before.
     
  25. Darth PJ

    Darth PJ Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 31, 2013
    I don't care if the sets are 'real' or 'virtual'... as long as they take me (as a viewer) to a galaxy far, far away. The issue I have is the notion that a dressed office lobby, refinery or other automatically equates to something more 'realistic' or 'better'. If JJ is to do something that I can think is on a par with the OT or PT, in terms of visuals/imagination, then I hope his criteria for 'better' is more substantial than what was on display in Star Trek. I hope JJ appreciates this.
     
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