Senate Misogyny, Entitlement, and Pop Culture

That's not much of an argument. It's more like a statement of obvious fact that everyone knows.

You forgot, entirely, to argue why this is bad.

Uh, why? Try explaining why.

Why does a single movement negate our ability to overcome the challenges of the future? And what are these challenges of the future? It'd be nice if you could define these challenges and then explain why the existence of feminism makes them insurmountable, rather than just making general statements without any explanation.

How about Black Lives Matter? Is it also making the challenges of the future insurmountable?

And what about the challenges of today?

Btw, feminists don't feel as if the problems they're facing are exclusive to them. They really don't.

"Men, too" isn't even a criticism of feminism.

"Your focus is trivial" isn't all that impressive, either. Especially when you won't engage in specifics. Even though AFS1983 and quite a few other people have been discussing the specifics over the course of this entire thread. Your criticism is actually a debate over the finer points that you haven't even engaged in. Try an actual discussion, instead of just dropping vague criticisms and calling for the disbandment of feminism without even explaining why.

When people have responded with non-trivial focuses, like reproductive rights, you don't respond.

AFS1983 and harpua have criticized people here for whining about trivial issues. They weren't accused of being misogynists.

So.

Idk if you're misogynist, but you certainly are anti-feminism.

Why should feminism have to take men's issues into consideration?

And what iteration would this be? Do you even know what third-wave feminism is? It doesn't sound like you do.

I'm sensing some code here. Some MRA code. Third-wave feminism = tumblr social justice warriors, amirite?

There's that word again, toxic.

We all know exactly what you're saying, we just disagree with it.

Essentially, what you're saying is:

I'm not a feminist, I'm a humanist!

We've heard it before. We're not impressed.

 

Eternity85 - I don't think many people, if anyone in this thread would argue that there are things that men face that need to be looked into; the Black Men and Society Thread has talked many times about the disproportionate number of black men who are in prison and who suffer longer/tougher sentences than white men, I'm sure there are other example to be found. We have the capacity to be concerned about more than one thing at a time, we can be feminists and concerned about other things as well, we don't need to get rid of the feminist movement to do so. There is no one big 'let's be concerned about everything' movement, it would be too unwieldy and nothing would get done, so things are broken up into smaller concerns. This thread is for talking about misogyny (and kinda has turned into the feminism thread) so that's what we are going to talk about in this thread.

 

I'd argue up and down for more women's bathrooms myself. It's the women who have to haul the kids in with them (well, usually, from what I see) - I've been to many events where men breeze in and out while the women's line is 20 deep.

But that issue pales to reproductive rights, equal pay for equal work, etc., I agree.

I also get it: men do have issues that need addressing. But we don't have to set aside women's issues to focus on men's. We deal with smaller increments of issues, and that is what I think Eternity85 misses - I actually think his heart is kind of in the right place but his mind is somewhere else and a little too narrow to see how he comes across (narrow on this issue, not a blanket statement).

 

I guess what he's saying is that we should think of all the issues we as a species are facing, with equal and fair consideration. He's a humanist!

We tried that. It didn't work. It turned out we had biases that needed to be pointed out. So things like feminism happened.

As has been pointed out in the Black Men and Society thread, despite the civil rights movement, we still have prejudices. Some of these prejudices are hidden, we are not conscious of them. Examples have been provided in that thread. Some people have even unknowingly put their bias on display for all to see. The same thing has happened here.

His objection (men, too) is pretty common, and has been noted. But I don't think feminists are ready to pack their bags and go home yet. Maybe they would get there sooner if they weren't bothered with "men, too" objections all the time.

So. Heero Yuy called it. Men, too.

Eternity85 just didn't know it. Unless he did.

 

I think there are some areas of feminism that still feel like a women only club, but feminism is not fundamentally exclusive. There are many feminist men, and many men who subscribe to ideals and beliefs (political, religious, whatever) that incorporate feminism. I feel that when people say something like 'why should feminists care about men's issues' they're falling into a rhetorical trap. All social issues affected by patriarchal ideology are better examined through perspectives informed by feminism (even if only to be aware of one's biases one way or the other).

What I want to know is how prison population and suicide statistics outweigh the importance of issues identified by feminists. Eternity85

 

But V-2, those issues don't outweigh feminist-identified issues. They are valid and important issues to be addressed. Also.

 

Two women whose brother ran off with a married woman from a higher caste in India are to be punished by being raped and paraded naked through town

I don't know what to say, except this sounds like some really sick, twisted Game of Thrones-style **** , except I don't think George R.R. Martin would go quite THIS far.

 

Amnesty International have launched a petition appealing for India's authorities to intervene.

If I was a praying man, I would pray for the success of that intercession. Surely this is evidence that a loving god doesn't rule the Earth, but I suppose that's a matter for another thread.

 

Except the petty ones, surely.

 

Okay, so, these girls (the youngest is only 15) aren't even being punished for anything they did. This is how misogynist these people are; they figure the best way to punish a man is to beat, rape and publicly humiliate a couple of women from his family. I mean, they're just not even going to punish the man!

"On July 31 the village council deemed the appropriate punishment for Ravi running away with a married woman from a higher caste was for his sisters to be raped."

What the actual ****?

 

I just have no words for that. That is really, really sickening.

 

Amidst all the giggling and the distraction that I engage in on this forum, that article and its implications just make me weep. Sheltered as I am in my comfy first-world apartment, with all my luxuries and conveniences that I can't help but take for granted, it's hard to believe that kind of horrific injustice happens in the world -- let alone that it was ordained by a council of judges. It's just unthinkably vile and anti-human.

 

Hello.

Obviously we're not going to make any progress here. I see what you're saying and I can't say I really disagree with many of you. I feel like I've said what I wanted to say in my previous posts. I can also see that I have to explain the same points over and over again. If I respond to one particular contention, then it comes out wrong in the other end, and someone else attacks me for something they think I said. Then I have to go back to explain what I meant to say, but then someone new comes back to attack me for something else I said.

I can clearly see that I'm being misrepresented more often than not. I have decided to leave this conversation since it doesn't bear any fruits. Again, I don't see myself as infallible. Clearly I've not been able to communicate as well as I should.

Let me just sum up my main points. I encourage you to interpret my claims in a genuin way, and not fall for the temptation to be disingenuous. You can disagree on what I say. However, I won't respond to it, because we're only going in circles:

• Feminism in the west isn't as relevant as it once was. When we see how contemporary feminism have been hijacked by people who only care about trivial matters, then it seems as if the movement has run its course. If there truly was many exclusive female issues left to deal with (things like voting rights etc) then we wouldn't see so many feminists complaining about trivial things. I've never said that every women's issue today is trivial. However, when we look at the major women's issues today, like domestic violence and abortion, it is only abortion that is truly exclusive to women. You should absolutely have the power to choose freely if you want an abortion or not. However, even here we all stand with you, men and women alike. It doesn' matter if you're a man or a women. What matters is your political affiliations. Liberal men and women will stand together on the issue of abortion, because we believe in freedom - and in the rights of individuals to choose what to do with the life they've been given. President Obama himself have said that women shouldn't look at themselves as an interest group.

• I cited the example regarding men only because I wanted to highlight how absurd it is that we never talk about men's issues in particular, but we're always talking about female issues; even the most trivial female issues are prioritised over the more serious male issues. I find this disturbing in the 21st century. I also said that we've been ingrained with this notion that women's issues in the west are more important that men's issues. You'll get this aggressive reaction whenever you dare to talk about what men are stuggling with, as if that means we're not concerned with women's issues as well. I think this might be rooted in our history. We have a lot of guilt because of how women have been treated throughout history. However, this can't stop us from criticising feminism today.

• When I spoke about the exclusivity of feminism it was in the context of explaining why it's problematic to make real progress as a society when you have particular movement that feels as if most of the problems they're facing is exclusive to them. We know that this isn't the case today. I do actually think that all we need now is humanism, because we've gotten far enough in the west to make this a reality. I obviously agree that feminism was necessary to begin with. Woman truly had many exclusive issues they were dealing with in the 19th and 20th century. In the 21st century we need more inclusive movements if we want to deal with the challanges of the future. Feminism can't do it alone anymore. If you want men to join you on issues you're concerned with, then you have to reciprocate and make it clear, in practice, that you stand in solidarity with men, as well as with women in third-world countries - and people of colour all around the world.

Lastly. I encourage someone to make a thread by this name:

Your prince is in another castle. Misandry, entitlement and brats.

My guess is this particular thread wouldn't be very well recieved. At least rename the current thread to feminism in the 21st century. It's more fair I think. Again, please don't fall for the temptation to be disingenuous with your interpretations. If you disagree, fine, but I would appreciate if you didn't call me a misogynist.

Thanks for listening.

 

...
lol

 

I'm assuming that a thread on misandry wouldn't be well received because, like a thread on white hetero men being victimised, people tend not to focus on non-issues.

 

Does the TOS let me say dull prick?

 

That's a great motivation. Besides being drawn to it as a woman, I became interested in feminism due to how second-wave feminists were jealous of the latter, newer forms of the movement. I'm not merely referring to the TERFs and how they discriminate against later feminists, such as the transfeminists. I saw less of this in college, but I've seen a lot more misogyny in the professional world and the area in which I live. Many women are encouraged to believe that we're all crazy and that we're inferior because of our bodies, minds, and so on, and I can't stand it. These kinds of things can make us stronger and more adept to handle things than many would give us credit. I suppose going to a liberal small university on the East Side encouraged me to believe this. Plus, it is rather notable that in my small high school--there were only about eighty people in it--there were more men than women there, and it was an "average and above intelligence" school with mostly ADHD and dyslexic students. The craziness of those days showed me up front just how many girls don't have much respect for themselves due to giving in to societal pressure, and my goal is to change that by encouraging others about their gifts, abilities, views, strengths, and energy. I'm glad several young women I've known over the years who felt that way have grown out of it. So, yeah. I don't like it when women are sexist toward themselves and others (i.e. slut-shaming, thinking that it's not feminine to like other women, not knowing what it means to be strong and decisive, etc.). It's sad to me. Try to surround myself with liberated, self-actualized female friends, and I've become very good about it. I am disturbed by misogyny and trans-misogyny directed toward women, whether it comes from men or among ourselves, and I just cannot abide it. It's repulsive and I hate how society encourages it. But the aim is to change society, one mind at a time, and we're all in this together. That's my view.

 

You are welcome to make such a thread; however, I can't speak to how it would be received.

As to the thread rename - there actually is a dedicated general discussion feminism thread where I think your critiques of feminism as a concept would be more appropriate. This thread began as a discussion of the remarkable prevalence of misogynistic and entitled attitudes amongst male nerds/geeks, though recent discussion would suggest otherwise.

 

The argument that feminism is exclusionary is equivalent to the one that BlackLivesMatter is exclusionary. But neither is the case. Feminism isn't excluding men; it's saying that women need to be treated as equal to men. Likewise, in Black Lives Matter, the "Also" at the end of the title is implied.

The reason we don't need to specifically take time out to talk about white males is because our entire society is already founded on white males. Every institution in modern life already affirms the value of white males. Saying that feminism is exclusionary because it doesn't talk about male problems is like attacking a charitable organization for not giving some of their money to millionaires.