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Senate Misogyny, Entitlement, and Pop Culture

Discussion in 'Community' started by Heero_Yuy, May 29, 2014.

  1. Darth Punk

    Darth Punk JCC Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2013
    internet does it again
    [​IMG]
     
  2. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2012
    I couldn't vote for someone whose beard grows at a different angle to their face.
     
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  3. Darth Punk

    Darth Punk JCC Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2013
    you're not allowed to vote anyway
     
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  4. Penguinator

    Penguinator Former Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 23, 2005

    The second link isn't really working, as a heads up - there's not a proper URL for it.

    As for the distinction in the first post - yeah, totally worth reading. I'd argue that the vast majority of the "skillfully creepy" are really just cultivating a certain image based around stereotypes about "outsider" imagery, and I think that that is a very common sentiment amongst certain nerdy populations. I am generalizing a lot here, but I think people get a lot of play out of excusing their actions as being the result of a loosely-defined/disclosed set of issues, let alone "look I'm just being friendly" lines.
     
    Heero_Yuy likes this.
  5. Heero_Yuy

    Heero_Yuy Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Agreed. The problem is its truly hard to tell the difference between the unintentionally creepy and skillfully creepy at times. There's also a lot of overlap. It should also be noted that calling out the "unintentional " often doesn't help much. Some people are just inherently creepy.
     
  6. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    The unintentionals usually apologize as opposed to getting defensive when called out. There's that difference.
     
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  7. poor yorick

    poor yorick Ex-Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2002
    Sorry about the URL problem! Let me try again: http://realsocialskills.org/post/86218358771/a-post-for-men-about-creepy-men
    If it still won't work, then people can at least copy and paste the URL. This one makes some of the same points, but it's aimed at men who are in "peacemaker" positions, such as teacher or boss, and it asks them not to decide that someone isn't being creepy just because he's never been creepy to them.

    This would be a good article for new mods to read, IMO, for all that our current ones are pretty good with this sort of thing.
     
  8. Penguinator

    Penguinator Former Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 23, 2005
    I think the issue with the URL was just the wrong thing got copy/pasted in. Good list of things to have, though I admit it's distressing that something so basic needs repeating.
     
  9. TrakNar

    TrakNar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 4, 2011
    Backtracking for a bit to the TERFs discussion... Where do trans men fall in terms of feminism? I'm really confused about this.
     
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  10. Admiral Volshe

    Admiral Volshe Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Usually, people don't have a problem with them. I haven't met a rational feminist who has an issue with LGBT+ people.

    The TERF feminists may or may not have a problem with them, depending on the person.
     
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  11. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015

    Well, isn't that gender-bending? I met a person with a beard and a dress once at Cathedral of Hope. Somehow I imagine that there are those who would prefer to see Clinton look like this. Oh, my. Well, psychologically they say that an individual's eyebrows say something about her or his personality, and that's what I'm thinking about here. Gosh, this makes me think about Abraham Lincoln. (Not that Hillary is like him.) I recall those historians who said he was very feminine in spite of his beard. It was weird to read about those rumors about his wife pushing him down the stairs prior to his presidency, but it's also interesting to read anything about his political skills, genius, and kindness. Definitely not the average bear. One of my favorite presidents.
     
  12. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015

    Oftentimes, a TERF doesn't realize that she or he is a TERF. Like Admiral Volshe said, there are times when TERFs have no idea that they are discriminating against and/or sexually harassing us trans women. It's mostly due to ignorance. I go by the definition of sexual harassment that the harasser may or may not know that she or he is harassing someone else by what she says or does. There are some who dispute this interpretation, of course.

    Trans men are in an interesting position. They actually get treated better in the workplace than we trans women, if no one knows that they are trans men. Well, they are men, so let's call them that, just like we trans women are women. I've met a trans man who was supportive of feminism. Ironically, he was studying the same thing I was at TWU. Just like anyone else, a trans man can be a feminist, just as some women can be anti-feminist or discriminatory without knowing it. Depends on who we're talking about.

    The first article was one I found very interesting. It explores workplace ethics in a way I wasn't familiar with prior to reading it.

    http://www.newrepublic.com/article/119239/transgender-people-can-explain-why-women-dont-advance-work

    http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/05/male-privilege-trans-men/

    http://roygbiv.jezebel.com/trans-women-male-privilege-socialisation-and-feminis-472949124
     
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  13. Heero_Yuy

    Heero_Yuy Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Good article. I've said it before, but I hate when social awkwardness due to autism, mental issues, whatever is used as an excuse for ****y, creepy behavior. I don't care what mental problems someone has, their feelings shouldn't be more important than the one being creeped on.
     
  14. Trip

    Trip Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2003
    TrakNar - the short version is that there's this decades-long feud between radical feminists and activist transsexual women, which is the sort of slightly embarrassing intra-leftist dispute that generates lots of passion and hurt feelings but is (or was) basically irrelevant and unknown to anyone not a part of either subculture (this includes both most feminists and most trans people). the specific thing you're asking about is a fairly recent term some trans women involved in the dispute coined on the basis that, like, they're the real radical feminists, and radical feminists they disagree with are excluding them, thus: trans-exclusionary radical feminist or TERF.

    so the point is it's only relevant in that really specific, really insular context. or it was, but it's made its way out into the broader feminist/social justice discourse recently where now it's basically a catch-all pejorative used by trans/queer activists to describe... pretty much any left-leaning person who disagrees with them in any way, as far as I can tell?

    either way, it's a term I'd recommend avoiding, not only because it's inflammatory and is basically used only to shut down discussions, but also because it's like, really really embarrassing.
     
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  15. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015

    Thanks. Well, I wouldn't describe something like autism, dyslexia, or ADHD as mental problems. I'd say they are learning differences or learning disabilities, as my high school taught me. I'd say the same thing for synesthesia or whatever. Now, I can see why people look at bipolar disorder, the personality disorders, schizophrenia, PTSD, and DID as mental illnesses. They are. But I've met a couple of people with schizophrenia, one with DID, and a few with bipolar disorder who are all on medication and are living productive lives, but those things do creep into their lives. I have a mild form of PTSD, but I think that many more people do, including many women who have been traumatized. The past can slouch forward its ugly face sometimes, and it's hard not to have counter-phobic reactions or a desire to flee when the situation doesn't merit it, but it's a challenge that many have to put up with. Every single person on this planet has a learning difference or learning disability. It's just that many are diagnosed for money, but I believe every individual has a challenge, some insecurity, or whatever, and that we need to look at people more as individuals than as groups in many situations. But I agree. I appreciate your desire to be open-minded about others. We shouldn't look down on people due to their diagnoses and labels. Many people in the general population have their own issues that may have gone undiagnosed. Like you said, we need to keep an open mind.

    I concur with everything you said, Trip. Feminism kind of has a civil war going on right now between the TERFs and the transfeminists. I believe more feminists today are transfeminists without knowing it, though many are aware of it. Julia Serano discusses these issues at length and superbly in her writing. I think that it's a matter of education, as well. I've noticed that a lot of college-educated people and others are more willing to accept trans persons, whereas many people who haven't studied the issues are not. The TERFs and others who believe that we trans women are men or that we ever were men are just silly to me. One big indication that we were not is that we were born not only with less testosterone than cisgender women, but studies have controversially concluded that we are born with less libido than than cis women. I'm not sure why that is or if that is always true. If so, cis women having more testosterone than than we trans women would explain a lot, given how many of we trans women are less interested in men or not interested at all. I don't know about trans men. As with us girls, those guys are all unique individuals themselves. I need to meet more of them, since I've only met one. I only know three trans women in this area well.

    I can speak from my experience in terms of feminism. Some women really love and support me, while others detest and envy me. But that's girls for ya. We're all different and not all of us are nice. Some girls come and hang out, and my best friend takes care of me like a big sister. However, some of the Hooters NRH girls tried to ban me from the women's room at Zonga's Mediterranean Restaurant. Interestingly, the managers and servers at Zonga's sided with me. They defended me, told them I was just asking for paper towels, and they asked for my surgeon's letter and my driver's license to back up my need to be in the women's room. I definitely do not belong in the men's room and I never did for a variety of reasons. But, yeah. That's a good example: The women at Zonga's defending me from the women from Hooters who come and in think they own the restaurant...
     
  16. Trip

    Trip Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2003
    well i was like, suggesting people not ever use the term "TERF," and also carefully trying to explain its history in as neutral a fashion as possible, so... i'm not really sure that you do :/


    also i've been inclined to ignore this but you keep bringing it up so
    idk what studies you're referencing here but this is all like... wrong.
     
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  17. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Here's a thought:

    Why don't we focus on equality-related issues that affect all women, instead of playing a word game or deciding that feminism isn't doing enough for a particular group of women.

    That kind of talk just makes us look like gossipy girls in a high school restroom.

    And gives feminism-hating men an excuse to complain that we are "toxic" and don't deserve any sort of respect or equal treatment.
     
  18. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015

    I'm sorry. I was doing my own protesting against cissexism and trans-misogyny. The more people know, the better, some have argued. I know that it's not polite to discuss politics, religion, sex, money, etc., but we discuss those things every day on this website, and while I don't do it at work, the issues sometimes needs to be discussed. It's just time to peel the onion and take the armor off, I feel. To use Robert Bly's phrases, I guess I like the black knight mentality over the red knight and white knight ways of thinking.

    Anakinfan, I am trying to focus on things that affect all women. I'm being very broad and jumping from one detail or aspect of the discussion at a time. Unless we have a transsexuality thread, I'm going to use whatever tools necessary to bring these issues up to the public in order to distribute this information, since so many people don't get us and because I'm sick and tired of the violence against people like myself. Anyway, thanks for what you and the others are doing here, and I agree that people shouldn't hate men in general. I'm just one of those who does not want to feel constricted or controlled by anyone. That's all.

    And I won't use the term TERF. I just don't like bullies and I stand up to them, unlike eleven years ago when I did not.

    Well, here's what I told some students earlier today: "When a person neglects you, it's the same as abuse. When a person makes you feel inferior to someone or uses you as a rebound, that's just wrong."

    That affects a lot of people, and not just women.
     
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  19. Boba Nekhbet

    Boba Nekhbet Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 30, 2014
    Although I think it's been used overly broadly in the last page or so of this thread, I'm not sure why it's "really embarrassing" or should never be used. I know you said you were trying to be "neutral" in your post here, but it's pretty crappy to ignore the fact that there ARE self-identified radical feminists who use extremely hateful and transmisogynistic language to talk about trans women and who would exclude them from their feminist movements. They exclusively misgender trans women, see gender dysphoria and transgender as mental illnesses that need curing, refer to them as perverts and deluded men, and to SRS as genital mutilation. Really the way these women talk about trans women is almost indistinguishable from the way, say, Matt Walsh and the transphobic religious right talk about them.

    These aren't straw feminists either. Last year, my favorite local lingerie shop got into some hot water for the way one of their salespeople treated a trans customer (asking if she'd had SRS yet before they let her into a dressing room). While the shop apologized, set up a staff training with a trans education organization, and did all the right things, the comments on Facebook and social media were OVERWHELMED by - yeah it's the best way to label them - TERFs, calling the trans customer in question sick and manipulative for trying to get into a dressing room to try on a bra for herself. IMO, TERF is a useful term for this case, it's the best way to convey who they are and what they believe more or less.

    I'm open to dropping the term and to listening to your response here, but it seems like you're both suggesting not using the term and denying or at least glossing over that this very voracious and contemptible group of women actually exists. How would you suggest we address them?
     
  20. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    It never crossed my mind that feminism and transphobia would have anything to do with each other at all. But it also never occurred to me to care if someone used to be a different gender.

    There was a ****storm here a few months ago about whether transgender people should be allowed to use the public restrooms of the gender they identify with, as opposed to the gender of their birth. My reaction was, am I the only one who does not pay attention to people in a public restroom unless I am forced to do so? I'm there to do my business and get out. A woman preaching and handing out religious tracts is more likely to interfere with my doing that, than a transgender woman who is also there to do her business and leave.

    At any rate, I wonder if there is/has been a cry to completely stop other movements for equality simply because some members decide the movement isn't doing enough for X Subgroup. Some of this is starting to look like a darker version of the "real fans" fights that pop up on other areas of the site.
     
  21. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Frankly, people who would pay attention to transgender people using the bathroom and getting all up in arms about it are creeps.
     
  22. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    I am just keen to hear what Mrs Fitzgerald thinks, quite frankly.
     
  23. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015

    Used to be? I respectfully disagree, since we know what and who are often since childhood. We used to be nothing different. This transition thing is really a myth of biological determinism, and it's just another social construction. At any rate, I have met women and men who consider themselves androgynous, gender-queer, neutral, neutrois, etc. I can't really say that they ever considered themselves to be solely feminine or masculine. The entire notion that we used to be something else is a misconception of society. Every individual is different, and I've known even the straightest of people who acted against stereotypes, which is great. Peer pressure and popularity are pointless and in some cases Orwellian.

    Well, you're leagues ahead of a lot of people. I don't know why conservatives get hung up on restrooms. It's about getting one's business done and leaving, as you said. Lol. I'm sure that a woman preaching would be more distracting and annoying, especially in the restroom. Gosh, that happens? I've never seen that, fortunately.

    All I'm saying is that everyone needs to be included in the larger group as a whole, regardless of where we came from or what our experiences are. One of things some American leaders have spoken about for a few hundred years is protecting minority rights and opinions. Those we call "minorities" of various sorts are all human have more in common with the larger group than others may believe. And as Steinem said, a woman needs her sisterhood.
     
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  24. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015

    Yes! That's what my friends think. We're just tryin' to take care of ourselves and why is it anyone else's business?
     
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  25. Penguinator

    Penguinator Former Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 23, 2005
    Public washrooms are disgusting and anxiety-inducing. The best solution I've seen is to just do away with shared men's and women's washrooms in lieu of a bunch of individual locked-door rooms that are gender-neutral.

    Also it's less disgusting.

    I hate public washrooms. Ugh.
     
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