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Senate Your Princess Is in Another Castle: Misogyny, Entitlement, and Nerds

Discussion in 'Community' started by Heero_Yuy, May 29, 2014.

  1. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    I'm writing this with brevity, due to it being a companion piece to what I said in the Race Relations thread.

    I was astonished to encounter a system of conservative New Age heathenry/paganism east of where I reside in this Metroplex. The "goddess" system not only looked down on trans women, but they fancied themselves as superior than the following 1) women who could not beget children, 2) women who became infertile earlier than most, 3) barren women, 4) intersex women, and 5) women with PCOS. For this reason, some friends and I had to help a lady get out of Texas in order to traverse to Oregon, where she would find greater acceptance. But that just goes to show that only do certain New Age pagan groups act like Baptists in their racism. They do so, as well, in their sexism. It's really sad when people are sexist toward themselves, for they seem to be misanthropic toward both women and men. That is why misandry and misogyny are inherently misanthropic, and that is why pacifism is the best means of protest. Violence, verbal and physical, is in itself misanthropic.
     
  2. DANNASUK

    DANNASUK Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Transgenderism is a taboo subject within the new age circles. But, no surprising, a lot of the new age movements at the turn of the 20th Century were quite openly misogynistic, racist and anti-semtic.

    After all, European fascism (particular Nazism) was born out of the occult.
     
  3. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    Absolutely, Force Ghost.
     
  4. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
  5. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Ugh these boards, it's cool guys don't fix them, it's totally fine, very difficult, etc.

    What I mean to say was; "If it was as simple as banning terms, you'd be driving online harassers to other platforms and not doing anything about underlying attitudes. In the same way that the gender paygap isn't resolved by pointing to anti-discrimination legislation.
     
  6. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    FB posts for encouragement, now shared with this site:

    So, girls, if you think the only way you can keep your partner is to remain demure and servile toward that individual as (s)he controls you and plies you with drugs all day, you're in the wrong relationship. Go out and get a career that you love. Buy a taser/something. Don't let anyone control you in any form or fashion. You'll find that being alone (or finding the right man/woman) will result in a great deal more happiness than remaining with partner-garbage. #selfprotection#sustainyourself#beyou


    Girls need their sisterhood. Women empower each other. But women who pressure other girls into codependency need to get over that manure. I mean, I knew dozens of women who graduated from or attended Texas Wesleyan, and while many of them married, that neither impaired nor prevented them from having their own careers or protecting themselves. That really gave me hope for the future. I long for more women to espouse self-protection, resiliency, and complete self-love.

    People ask me what could be done about [church name censored]. There are always skeletons in their closet. The pastor who baptized me was a ruffian who had affairs and sexually harassed women. But people said he gave good sermons. It wasn't enough that the church paid off his accusers after they fired him. And then the church hired four pedophiles, one of whom is still there. They fired the others way, way too late. And some of their main ministers still cover up sexual harassment. Many of the staff and members neither believe Hell nor Satan, but that did not prelude them from engaging in reprehensible crimes. Well, the Methodist church in theory is pretty good. Many of their members and ministers are secular humanists. Most of the people who attend are okay. We just need to ban anyone who sexually harasses and harms people from serving in positions of authority, regardless of whether or not they are ordained. Plain and simple.
     
  7. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    There has been an argument that holds that if Al Franken was forced to resign, then Trump should resign for his conduct, which was far worse than Franken's. Given how child molester Roy Moore is accepted by Republican politicians who have critiqued Franken, I smell hypocrisy. I find it very troubling that a pedophile has received this much tolerance and credibility. It's sickening. In the same vain, I am disturbed by those who accept Trump and his behavior.
     
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  8. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Being a liberal is worse than being a pedophile, rapist, murderer, or Nazi. Haven't you been paying attention to Fox News?
     
  9. Juliet316

    Juliet316 JCC Game Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2005

    You mean sane people still watch Fox news?
     
  10. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    A network formerly run by an abuser. And the most popular host was a serial abuser himself. Fox News: Apologist rape culture network.
     
  11. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian New Films Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  12. epic

    epic Ex Mod star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 4, 1999
  13. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    It's completely legal in the United States to fire someone for their political views, so I don't know why any lawyer worth a damn would include that.

    EDIT: Apparently California is an exception, because of course it is.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  14. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    I posted this in one of the ST section threads.

    I agree with Daisy Ridley that the term Mary Sue is sexist. Why isn't there a Ryan Craig, as she said? I have a feeling that the Mary Sue concept has been applied over the years to Darth Traya, Darth Zannah, Vergere, Lumiya, Bastila Shan, Satele Shan, Leia, Padme, Ahsoka, Delilah Blue, Jyn Erso, and many more. We don't see this concept being applied to Darth Malgus, Darth Bane, Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker, Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Cade Skywalker, etc. So, I see her point.

    But I also understand detractors' point. For example, Jennifer Lawrence has often been hired to portray thinly written characters to give them more humanity, and now Daisy Ridley does that some in Star Wars. It's an interesting debate. I just like the concept of a woman steadfastly opposing an abusive, manipulative system and remaining a Jedi, regardless of whatever kind of Jedi that is. That's how I look at it.

    That's pretty much what Star Wars has mean to me for quite some time. As you know, I'm either the liberal Ender on this site, or at times a raging moderate trying to see the truth in both sides of an argument/debate. Lol. I enjoy it, though. So, moving this beyond SW, how do you perceive this discussion in the media? It's not just about how fictional women are portrayed. Real life women have to deal with this concept everyday. The way I see it, we're not going to find a woman who is extremely pragmatically evil on one side or intensely heroic/inspirational on the other. Everyone is just trying to live their life, and people are always surprised when we do whatever is necessary to protect ourselves. I don't really find it that shocking. The core issue: People tend to argue about how vulnerability can be portrayed, and I tend to think it can be a strength inside a person, any person, regardless of gender, if one learns to accept and love oneself and one's strengths and gifts. That's just me.

    Just trying to get this beyond the whole discussion of finances and idealism.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
  15. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2000
    So Daisy Ridley has never heard the term Gary Stu, I see. I mean, I get what she's trying to say about female characters being criticized more. But she's just wrong about there not being an equivalent male term.

    Although I have no idea why anyone would think Rey is a Mary Sue. She's far from perfect. She comes across as fairly similar to how Luke did in the OT, and that's as it should be. They're both archetypal. But that's not what makes a Mary Sue/Gary Stu, really. It's being absolutely perfect and a clear wish-fulfillment character, IMHO.


    As for that Google white conservative guy discrimination case... Well, the idea that he's being discriminated against because of being a straight white guy is insane in an industry that is statistically mostly straight white guys.

    The conservative thing, though, may have a bit of heft. I honestly don't know much about that guy or his stances and actions. He may have racist or violent views, and that's obviously indefensible and harmful to a company and coworkers. I know he wrote some stuff critical of minorities and women, so hopefully that will be enough to show that Google had grounds to fire him.

    I will say that the tech sector, like Hollywood, absolutely is overly judgmental of conservatives. Or really just of anyone who's not a super hippie liberal. I personally am not conservative, have never been a Republican, and still am often treated with disdain if anyone finds out I *gasp* didn't support Hillary. And Christians are certainly openly talked about as if they are all evil, and I'm afraid to tell people I am one because of it (although that's obviously religion, not politics. But most people in Hollywood assume all Christians are conservatives and will thus treat you like a dirty conservative even if you're a Christian who, say, thinks drugs should all be legal).

    What I'm saying is, I think the tech and film industries only give fuel to the terrible segment of the right when they and their employees do speak and act badly towards all conservatives. They're just reenforcing a stereotype about liberals. It obviously isn't all people in tech and Hollywood who think or act this way... But I will just say that even admitting my parents are conservative negatively affected my placement in one job I had (I was literally the only person out of 10 whose parents supported Reagan in the 80s, which statistically is insane considering that he won almost every state in 84). And that was when the bosses asked because they specifically wanted insight into Republican mindsets. It wasn't like I was the one bringing it up... I'm just apparently the only one there who actually even knew any conservatives in real life.

    There is definitely a bubble. And it's a problem, because it gives fuel to people like the gamergate idiots who want to feel persecuted (even though most of them live and work in places where they aren't).
     
  16. Juliet316

    Juliet316 JCC Game Winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Apr 27, 2005
    I do think that's where sexism comes into play. From all my years of hanging around various fandoms or just hearing from the sidelines of certain fandoms, there's been an increasing instinct of certain fans to label any lead female character, especially if they are the main or one of the main characters as a Mary Sue. Doesn't matter if a female is a wish - fullfillment character or not, if some fans don't like them, they label them a Mary Sue. Most recent example of this would be Clara Oswald, of Doctor Who (I could definitely see how some could call her a Mary Sue in S7, with the whole Impossible Girl thing,but in S8, she was absolutely presented as a flawed human being, who's actions did have consequences and who's flaws and mistakes weren't just glossed over and forgotten. And her pride in thinking she could be like the Doctor caught up with her in S9 - no matter what you think of Moffat's creative direction in the aftermath). And funnily enough, I have yet to come across a male character fans don't like being labled a Marty/Gary Stu in the same vein some of these female characters get slapped with that label (and there are certain male characters that I absolutely could slap that label on)
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
  17. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2015
    Oh, okay, Solojones. I had never heard of that term, either. Very interesting.

    My deal is, beyond the business end of things, I have no problem with the activists who are genuine about the issues. The humanitarian, environmental ones. And I think that speaks for itself.

    I definitely agree with you that not all Christians are evil. I do appreciate the ones, the liberal, leftist ones like Chris Hedges, and the ones who are liberal in the smaller, universalist churches, but those have become too few. That's what saddens me. Having grown up never hearing the words Hell, Satan, or sin in a sermon not once between the age of 4 and 28 in this downtown church, ya know, I just don't understand the fundamentalist side of things. I just fueled that into my ethics rather than embracing the theology.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
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  18. Sith_Sensei__Prime

    Sith_Sensei__Prime Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 22, 2000
    The outrage over Michelle Williams being paid $1.5m less than Mark Wahlberg is welcome

     
  19. Coruscant

    Coruscant Jedi Grand Master star 7

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2004
    Yeah, I remember that interview. Oh, but there is, Daisy, there is! Maybe she should take a writer’s workshop sometime. Although, workshops have probably or are in the process of eliminating the use of Mary Sue/Gary Stu and coming up with a new word because “Mary Sue” has just become toxic. I can imagine some old white guy using “Mary Sue” to criticize someone’s work and the younger participants sending the whole workshop on a tangent.

    I think the thing that irritates certain people about Rey is the fact that she kicks so much butt and succeeds at it, while rarely failing. They think she should fail more, be less gifted, less brutally strong in the Force. This is not automatically the marker of a Mary Sue, however. And as TLJ especially has shown, this raw strength and potential is deliberate, the light rising up to meet the dark.

    To me, a Mary Sue/Gary Stu has much more to do with the wish-fulfillment than perfect qualities. It is a character that stand-ins for the writer (not the audience), an empty vessel for them to inhabit and thus feel as if they are actively participating in their own story from this 2nd-person proxy. So did Arndt, Abrams, Kasdan, all of them rich, successful men, secretly want to be a super powered Force prodigy in a gffa? I don’t think so.

    Even considering the perfect qualities argument, if you magically made Rey a man, it would be obvious she is flawed. She’s (he?) pig-headed, dealing with trauma from her childhood, she’s easily manipulated, taunted, even. It reminds me of the awe of sports stars like Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, or Michael Phelps. They are all clearly exceptional, but as many of these stars would attest in interviews, off the court, the field, or out of the pool, they are just regular people with flaws and shortcomings who have made regrettable choices.

    Rey doesn’t even succeed all the time, especially in TLJ. She fails in her two main objectives, which are to get Luke to help the Resistance (okay, so that may actually be a partial success, with a lot of help from Yoda) and to redeem Ben (total failure). She even fails to find some sort of meaningful, healing answer about her parents, the apparent truth of which seems to devastate her.

    And spot-on about the archetypal, especially being a source of confusion over the nature of Rey’s character. She’s also a main character in a Disney movie, so naturally there is going to be a built in audience of kids, and Rey was always going to be a character they could look up to, even want to be. That’s not Mary Sue-ism, that’s just normal kids’ heroes stuff.
     
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  20. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Rey could arguably be considered a pet character, although in TLJ I see that far more with Kylo Ren, with both Luke and Rey’s characters being diminished in order to make viewers more likely to sympathize with him.

    I definitely think the Mary Sue comments are often sexist, especially as they are often followed by comments along the lines of ‘I’m tired of strong female leads’ (because strong female leads in a few movies are just too many and strong male leads in hundreds of movies are not enough) or “agenda” (because white male heroes are the default and not political, casting is only political if the hero is a woman or POC).
     
  21. Coruscant

    Coruscant Jedi Grand Master star 7

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2004
    And there’s not even anything wrong or amateur about pet characters. Writers are going to have favorites.