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Your Thoughts On CII - The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly

Discussion in 'FanForce Conventions' started by Sturm Antilles, May 3, 2002.

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  1. k3po

    k3po Jedi Knight star 6

    Mar 21, 2001
    Hi everyone, just got back to Denver from Indy this morning at 5am. Wow, what a trip. 18 hours both ways. Well let me say my Fiance and I had a great time. Our trip started off rough, she got food poisonong at 2am half way through Kansas going out. That was really scarry. but we stayed at the Embassy suites down the street from the dome and what a smart move that was. When we were tired or needed lunch, we could go back to the room and chill for a half hour while we plan our next thing to see. We got to the celebration store first thing friday and thank god. it was a mess and I got everything I wanted. Pin, pens, shirts, the poster, the program and yes 5 figures. No I'm not a scalper, 3 are for 3 co-workers and we wanted to open one and keep one sealed. I got tons of pics og actors in the autograph section. Got a great one of Bonnie Piese and the the lady who played Aura Sing. They were so kind and looked right up at the camera for me. Got a few others and then got John Hollis's auto. I got to meet John Knoll and he signed my badge and nich Gillard and signed it also. he was hilarious, he was asking me were the green room was. What a great guy. Got Carrie Fishers autograph with no problems. We wernt in the mood to wait for tix for the concert, but its impossible to see everything. We just went and got our drink on instead. The only grip I have is the stupid line waiting each morning to get in the door. I never understood why they would have a show start at 10am and not let people in until 10am. they should have let people in early and then we can stand in line inside on what we want to see first. All in all it was great trip, but just as crazy and unorganized inside as Denver was. the trip did end on a great note Sunday, got my pic taken with Anthony Daniels. It was great time, but I dont think we will do the 3rd celebration in 3 years. They are all the same basically. i think we will do a charity screening instead. Had a great time, but am happy to be home.
  2. Lelila

    Lelila Jedi Padawan star 4

    Jan 16, 1999
    I'm just going for the bad and ugly here, though I had a great time. First of all, they over sold - totally. On Saturday I could barely move, let alone get into many of the things I wanted to see.

    The main thing that bugs me has to do with the store. I went in on Saturday morning. They were out of shirts, hats, backpacks, chairs, posters, lanyards, keychains, cutouts...just about everything you can think of. I had been looking forward to getting this stuff for a really long time, and I am extremely, extremely frustrated. I filled out an order form to have things shipped. Not only do I have to wait 6-8 weeks, but they are CHARGING for shipping. This may not seem like a big thing, but when you convert this extra 15% to Canadian currency, it is absolutely disgusting. Not only that, but they will charge me GST since it's coming into Toronto, something that I wouldn't have had to pay otherwise. For 2 celebration passes, they charged me $40 (Canadian - about $25 American) for GST, and I refused to pay it.

    The fact that I will have to pay so much because Wizards of the Coast *****ed up is WRONG. They should have been able to anticipate the numbers - being sold out when the con is not even half over shows a major problem.
  3. Tobey-Wan

    Tobey-Wan Jedi Master star 9

    Jun 12, 2001
    Security beefs.

    1. Several times we walked into the center never to have our badges checked. Just plain laziness by the "Security" staff.

    2. It seems that the only requirement to get a fan club lanyard was to show your ID. My friends went up and showed their ID's and were give fan club lanyards. The person didn't check a list or anything! Granted they were members, but still this really makes me feel good about my "Fan Club Benefits".

    3. I volunteered at the FanForce table on Saturday and found out at that time that I qualified for an Associate pass to get me in the door early. So I walked up to the Volunteer counter and said I was a volunteer. The handed over an Associate pass (in exchange for my 3-day) and I was on my way. They didn't ask my name or where I was working, just handed the pass over.

    I did get some enjoyment out of C2, but it seemed like it was a headache just to walk around. I certainly hope WOTC outsources C3 to some company that knows how to handle events of this magnitude.
  4. DarthBrian

    DarthBrian Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Apr 9, 2002
    That "Fan Club Lounge" was a joke.
  5. snap-hiss

    snap-hiss Jedi Master star 5

    Aug 23, 2001
    WotC needed to sell less tickets. That would have solved many of the other problems.

  6. Chewbacca of Kashyyyk

    Chewbacca of Kashyyyk Jedi Youngling star 3

    Nov 17, 1999

    "I did get some enjoyment out of C2, but it seemed like it was a headache just to walk around. I certainly hope WOTC outsources C3 to some company that knows how to handle events of this magnitude. "

    Hmmmm.what a brilliant idea, let people who know how to run an event such as this do it?

    Tobey Wan want a job?
  7. Tobey-Wan

    Tobey-Wan Jedi Master star 9

    Jun 12, 2001
    Sorry, don't think I'm qualified. But I'm sure that some company out there is. Certainly WOTC and the people at ICC had no clue. Perhaps that was because of WOTC's overselling or perhaps it was just bad planning. Either way, I think they should just outsource the project to a company who's area of expertise is running events of this size. Clearly, WOTC has no clue.
  8. Chewbacca of Kashyyyk

    Chewbacca of Kashyyyk Jedi Youngling star 3

    Nov 17, 1999
    Agreed, CoK attended the largest convention in the Country last fall. It was in Atlanta and it was for some society for Home Builders. They had shows, vendors and special presentations and it ran like clockwork. There were twice the number of people there and you would never had known. CoK knows this because CoK knows the person who put on the entire event. That is his job and he worked at it for an entire year. The point is that companies can do this easily if they pay a companies that does this for a profession. Star Wars the machine, is getting so big that it needs to treat this as a major event if they want to get the desired satisfaction.
  9. Tobey-Wan

    Tobey-Wan Jedi Master star 9

    Jun 12, 2001
    As mentioned previously, it doesn't appear that this event was done "for the fans" as advertised. It was "all about the benjamins".
  10. DarthBrian

    DarthBrian Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Apr 9, 2002
    If C3 is held at the San Diego Convention Center, they wouldn't have problems with hitting their capacity. Before the expansion of the SDCC, Comic-Con had 53,000 attendees over a 4-day convention. The convention center recently doubled in size, so they could easily hold a C3 crowd. Then if Wizards hired the people in charge of running the Comic-Con, it would run very very smoothly.
    I'm not just saying that because I live in San Diego. I am totally and completely confident in the Comic-Con guys.
  11. JediJag

    JediJag Jedi Youngling

    May 7, 2002
    Greetings All. My First Post.
    Here?s my two cents worth about my experiences in Indianapolis. I am writing this to send to friends and family and to document my experience so there is some repetition of what has previously been posted.

    I arrived at 10AM Friday from Florida to find both the fan club and regular line each nearly a mile long. As I got in line I was overcome with both excitement and dread. But the waiting was surprisingly fun as a parade of costumes passed by and I struck up conversations with fans from all over the country. This was to be the unexpected bonus of the entire weekend. The people at the convention were incredible. Over the course of the event I talked to fans from Sydney, Germany, Japan, Brazil, and all over North America. E-mail addresses were written down and phone numbers were passed about. Whatever area of interest you had about the Saga, there was someone there who shared your passion.
    Once we got inside and purchased passes the madness began. The maps provided for the facility were pathetic and it was quickly apparent that the operators were not prepared for the crowds. Even in the line on Friday, I could project that attendance would shatter the planners? projections.
    I quickly headed for the Main ballroom for the opening ceremonies only to find myself in the line/crowd/MOB! at the bottom of the stairwell. I was extremely lucky to get into the presentation. The good thing about the experience was that I quickly realized that I would have to revise my itinerary. One had to prioritize what you wanted to see and accept that you were going to spend half the weekend in line. As it was, I think I saw as much as was possible and felt sad for the many that were constantly disappointed. I will now describe the weekend by subject and/or event.

    Opening Ceremonies:
    Incredible. Rick McCallum?s presentation was a digital theatre hard sell but he brought some great visuals and answered audience questions. Video messages were sent by Sam Jackson (extremely funny about purple lightsabers), Pernilla August, John Williams, Natalie Portman (pure sweetness, her beauty should be illegal), Christopher Lee, Iain McDiarmid (wonderfully cryptic allusions to Episode III), Ewan McGregor, and George Lucas.
    Jim Ward of LucasFilm? then pretended to talk media strategy about how to countermarket Spiderman. He then said he wanted the audience to review a Spiderman trailer. The trailer began with Spiderman graphics and a voice over talking about ?a new kind of action hero?. I was totally sold on this prank when suddenly Yoda appears on screen and proceeds to kick some serious butt! It was so cool!. The crowd erupted in cheers and giddy laughter and in that one moment I felt like my whole trip was going to be worthwhile.

    Anthony Daniels:
    Give this man his own show! The golden god did a wonderful job as master of ceremonies for the main ballroom. He interviewed the guests and pranced (literally) through the audience with a microphone to get questions from the audience all the while wearing a wonderfully tacky golden blazer. He did everything off?the-cuff with humor and a stinging wit. I was able to see him do five shows and he was brilliant every single time. Many moments stood out. One was his ?interview? with the robotic R2D2 onstage. Of course Anthony did the interpretation of R2?s bleeps and the repartee between them was classic. On Friday afternoon during a show with Hayden and Nick Gillard, Nick rigged the canvas back of Anthony?s stage chair so that it would provide no support. When Anthony returned to the stage at the end of the show he nearly fell off his chair. He then scolded the snickering audience for not warning him. At the first Sunday show there were under 100 fans in only two sections and he broke with the show script and came down and took pictures with us. This was one of my favorites sessions as it was quite intimate and I got to ask Ben Burtt a question about editing the transitions between the more dramatic Anakin/Padme story arc and the action-oriented Obi-
  12. goose19

    goose19 Jedi Youngling

    May 6, 2002

    I guess I should have explained how I got into see the Spectaculat three times. It was really by luck. I had planned to go to the 9:00 showing on Saturday but didn't get through the door until just before 10:00. The store had a long line already so i decided to head over to the Spectacular and just caught the tail end of it which was the second showing of the 8 min footage. I wanted to see the whle show so I stood in line for the 2:00 and got in. And then during the Stunts thing on Sunday they played everything again. Like I said, I tried to get figures three times and was turned away each time. :(

    I agree about the WOTC staff and the security. Totally unhelpful. The only WOTC person I was grateful for was the guy by the will call line who was very nice and helped me vent about everything on Friday. Thanks for listening man.

    The Indy Knights and the 501st volunteers were awsome.

  13. Bria

    Bria Manager Emeritus, -MNFF Council star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    May 15, 1999
    The good: Meeting fellow fans. Many were from right here on the boards so that was especially cool. :D I did enjoy just talking to the people around me in line too though. :) Thanks to the ticket to wait in line deal, I only attended one actor event, but I was thrilled with the one I saw. The Lando/Lobot reunion was great and I'm so glad that I didn't miss out on it. I was greatful to get up and ask BDW a question and I loved the little Lando who was in costume and got to go up on stage. That was priceless. :) As a SW EU fan, I thoroughly enjoyed each and every book related panel I went to as well.

    The bad: Long lines. Needing a ticket to stand in line. People going to see Carrie Fisher with mountains of stuff to be signed and as a result cut out a lot of people who just wanted one or two. Staff members who didn't know what the heck they were talking about. I was part of a group entry in the costume contest. There were 5 of us, but for a while 2 of us were on one side, while the other 3 were instructed (wrongly) to stay were they were. The guy on my side was kind and did escort us over to the other side so the other 3 could join us, but still. :mad: Scalpers who went out of the store with tons of action figures to sell on Ebay. The Promised VIP room was a joke. It provided a place to meet or sit down for a moment, but that was it.

  14. harpm1

    harpm1 Jedi Youngling star 3

    Feb 19, 2002
    Very glad to go but also glad to be home.

    Carrie Fisher discussion (didn't care to do any paid autographs) , the Yoda Preview, and watching the kid Jedi Training. The Costumes Rocked!!! Our new Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru were excellent too. I also thought the people were generally great. I've never talked to so many nice people in one crowded place before.

    Lines. Has WOTC ever heard of capping sales? Would have made the differance.

    The lounge was beyond belief. All the food and drink. NOT

    Where they put the Jedi Training. Everytime a show started there would be a huge traffic jam and you couldn't move.


    They had this wonderful RCA dome and didn't use it. I think they made enough "Benjamins LOL" to cover the costs of that.

    But all together I'm glad I went and glad I could participate. It's unfortinate that so many were upset about the organization but over all it was amazing.
  15. Mirax H

    Mirax H TFN Costumes Staff star 3 VIP

    Aug 16, 1999
    I have to say this was truly the best weekend of my entire life! All bad aside, I loved every minute of it. 50 times better than C1. Although I didn't get to do everything I wanted, I did get to do everything and buy what I really wanted. We knew lines would be long and planned accordingly. We had a group of 6 with phones and walkie talkies and could easily split up to get in line for different things to help out our group get and see as much as possible. My highlights for each day:

    In line freezing my butt off in my slave costume at 7 am. Was second in line to get in the exhibit hall since everyone ran to the store. Hubby got the Leatherbound signed novel(can't believe it was $150!) while I got autographs. That was awesome, just walked around talking with the actors, no lines. Chatted with David Prowse a bit. He loved my slave costume as did Kenny Baker and John Hollis. Only had to wait for about 3 people in front of me to meet Billy Dee. Got all the autographs I really wanted. Hubby went from the book to the store and got the figures and shirts we wanted, waited about 2 1/2 hours. Got tons of pics taken is slave costume:) Stood in line for 2 1/2 hours for concert tickets(well worth it). Hubby relieved me while I saw the Empire Strikes Back (but missed opening ceremonies since went for concert tickets-worth it). Those guys were all so great and funny. Now wanted their autographs but waited till Sat since lines now long. Got concert tickets. Bought some 12" figures. Saw Billy Dee Williams, front row center! Went to the fan force party. Got pic with Michael Sheard. Met Richard LeParmentier and he loved my Hooters shirt, took pics with me that he is going to post on his website! That was the highlight of the night!

    In line at 6 am after less than 3 hours of sleep. Once inside, got in line for Carrie Fisher while hubby got more autographs (all the Imps for me plus the hot SW women) Waited till about 11:45 to see Carrie Fisher and was worth every minute, would have waited all day(see my story in "who were you most happy to meet). Missed Rebel heros to do it but who cared?! Saw Star Wars in 30minutes, Totally Hilarious! Lots of Mother/Daughter pics taken with Ladystar since I was Classic Leia and she was Battle Padme today. Saw the R2 units tried to get in to see Hayden but no dice. Bought a Master Replicas, The visual Dictionary, art of Ep II, got Steve Anderson to sign 4 posters. Too tired to see Warwick since needed to eat and dress for concert. The concert was amazing, a perfect end to a perfect day.

    In line at 7 am after less than 3 hours of sleep and a 1 1/2 hour Lady Maul Makeup Job(thank goodness my buddy Ladystar was out in line for us at 5:45am) Got more autographs and a pic with Ian Liston(Wes Janson) that he asked for me to send so he could put it on his website. Did the costume parade, had fun sneering at everyone as Lady Maul and seeing everyones costumes! The costume contest was great! I kissed Anthony Daniels on stage, got 2nd place in the Villan catagory! Then, got my medal from Trisha Biggar (which had C3PO on it)and had Anthony Daniels sign it! A terrific end to a terrific weekend. Then ate like a pig since I hardly ate all weekend, lol!
  16. DarthBrian

    DarthBrian Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Apr 9, 2002
    "In line freezing my butt off in my slave costume at 7 am. "

    And we all really appreciate your sacrifice too. ;)
  17. ZeroCool69

    ZeroCool69 Jedi Youngling star 2

    Feb 22, 2002
    Some other things that came to me, thought I'd share.

    Carrie Fisher being in her own room was a good thing. Had she been in the main exhibit hall, that whole room would have been unbelievable. However, I think that some of the other bigger stars like Billy Dee Williams, David Prowse, Peter Mayhew, Kenny Baker, and Jeremy Bulloch should have been in another room. Not only because the lines at the C2 Ventures area would have been shorter, but out of respect. These guys are big in the Star Wars universe. Maybe they could have out all these people in their own area in the Exhibit hall, with room for the huge lines there would have been.

    Now that C2 is in the history books(sadly), we have to look to the future, C3. After what we saw happen this last weekend, I think that the people who will organize the next one should look at C2 and make the obvious improvements.
  18. Lieutenant_WesJanson

    Lieutenant_WesJanson Jedi Youngling star 1

    Feb 2, 2002
    Overall, I had a wonderful time. :D I loved all the interviews that I was able to get into (Trilogy of Stars, Billy Dee Williams and Lobot, guys from the Rebellion and Empire), and the Rick McCallum spectacular was incredible. On Sunday, right after the interview with Peter Mayhew, David Prowse, and Kenny Baker, I saw the 8 minute footage again, and got up and left to see other things. I can't believe I missed the Yoda trailer that they showed after I left! Now that I think about it though, I'd rather wait for the movie to see Yoda kicking butt. :) I also got a chance to catch Rick McCallum coming out of the bathroom (got his autograph) and Garrik Hagon heading for the concert with Kenneth Colley and a few others, although I was only able to get Garrik's autograph. On Saturday night, while waiting to be seated at the "Champions" Sports Bar right across the street, Peter Mayhew walked in and stood right in front of me!!!! I had no idea that he was so tall, and I had only seen one picture of him before, so at first I didn't recognize him. I saw the Chewbacca ring on his finger though and started thinking back to the picture I had seen, so as he was being seated I was sure it was him. I thought about walking up to his table but I decided not to. :( I did see him again after the concert was over, and that time I took a picture of him. :)The concert was fantastic, and a few actors were seating right in front of me! I couldn't believe it. I saw tons of awesome costumes as well. I had a great time that I will always remember. I'm ready for Celebration III! :D
  19. MOJEDI

    MOJEDI Jedi Youngling

    Jan 1, 2002
    I Came.
    I Saw Carrie.
    I Collected J.Sacul. (just two)

    THE BAD:
    My husband will divorce me if I drag him to the third one. He's still complaining about Denver.

    See you all at C3!
  20. lija

    lija Jedi Youngling star 2

    Mar 30, 2002
    My experience at C2 is worse than C1.

    I had a great time at C1. Didn't mind the rain, it was the puddle of water that I hated.

    My experience at C1 prepared me for the horrendous lines at C2. The only complaint I have for C2 that stood out compared to C1 is the disorganization and lack of space to hold all of the people. The convention center was not big enough for everyone, especially where some of the events were situated.

    On Friday, my brother & I stood in line for 2 hours to get in. Also, a guy in line w/ us told us this rumor that had us busting our guts. (Highlight to read) [hl=black]Palpatine is Anakin's father, since few people liked the immaculate conception idea on TPM. Besides, what else could be more shocking than the Vader is Luke's father in ESB.[/hl] The will-call line took only 5 minutes. The line for the lanyards was worse, which thankfully I didn't have to get in. I got my 2 figures after only waiting in line for less than 1 hour (that was surprising) and I got my free books after being in line for the same amount of time. During those times, I enjoyed myself talking to the people in the lines w/ me and I was interviewed by a newspaper reporter to pass the time while waiting to get the books. :D

    The disorganization was very apparent on Friday. I had my brother stand in line for the concert tickets for over 2 1/2 hours. During that time, he went from 5th place to 30th (the staff shuffled the line several times before deciding that the original version was better.) :mad: One of guy explained why they weren't able to start selling on time. His voice didn't carry out and if I wasn't so close, I wouldn't have been able to hear him. I was in line for the opening ceremony before being told that it was full. :( Then I found out the next day that the room had lots of space. :mad: They handed out tickets on that day too. It was on Sat & Sun when they limited the tickets to one per person. I was only able to attend one show: Hayden & Nick Gillard. :)

    Saturday was filled w/ people. I could barely navigate my way through the dealers' room. Attended the continuity panel and the Concept to Costume show w/ Trisha, Iain, & Dermot. They were both great and I had fun. [face_laugh] If I wasn't upstairs already, I would have never got to attend them cause I found out later that they wouldn't let anyone upstairs. Just barely missed the SW in 30 minutes, the people in front of me were the last to get in. :_| The concert was great. [face_love] R2 was a great dancer and I enjoyed seeing Vader during the Imperial March piece. [face_mischief]

    Sunday was rushed for me since I had to leave late in the afternoon to fly back home. I stood in line w/ people who wanted to get tickets to see Carrie just to get my ticket to see the costume contest. I ended up missing the contest anyway due to the time contraints. :_| My disappointment was eased when I was able to attend the Trilogy of Stars: Peter, Kenny, & David. The 8 min footage & Spiderman trailer was awesome. :) I ordered the exclusive book & C2 Ventures still didn't have it ready when I had to leave. :mad: They promised to mail it to me. While I was over there waiting, one of guys received his book & his special autograph was George Lucas!!!! Lucky him. ;)

    BTW, I was hugely disappointed to find out that the store sold out of mostly everything and it cost me extra just to get the stuff I ordered shipped.

    In all, I rate C2 a B-C grade. I'll still go to C3 (if it happens) and hopefully it would be better than C2.

    In closing, thanks to 501th for their time and efforts w/ their volunteer work and the people in costumes who kindly posed for me when I asked to take their pictures. MiraxH that included you in your Lady Maul outfit.

  21. Hoth_pants

    Hoth_pants Jedi Youngling star 1

    Sep 10, 2001
    just tell your hubby your working on a leia slave costume, that should change his outlook on C3.

    See ya at C3 :D
  22. Punisher

    Punisher Jedi Master star 4

    Oct 20, 1998
    The Good:

    5. The actors that had personality like (of the shows I saw): Temura Morrison, Joel Edgerton and Bonnie Piesse, Carrie Fisher, and of course, Anthony Daniels.
    (My opinion of Lucas really changed after seeing their discussion.... it really made me lose lots of respect for him.)

    4. Getting to meet lots of fans and show off my SW photo collection to many of them as I waited in line. I hope to hear from them via e-mail so I can show them my C2 pictures and my archive shots!

    3. Hanging out with the ILM modelmakers after their exhibition, great bunch of people and they took the time to talk with me and answer my questions. They were great!

    2. Talking to the great SW artists in attendance (even a few Force.Net licenesed fan artists!) and getting to meet Hans Jenssen & Richard Chasemore and talking to Richard about art and 3D graphics. He's a great guy and has amazing talents.
    Also finding out that a few of the pro-artists have checked out and liked my artwork just about floored me!

    1. Finding the "Holy-Grail" of my collection! I bought the Icons Anakin/Luke saber replica from ANH and being told that I was getting number 76 of 10,000!!! :D
    I've been trying to buy one in person for 4 years.
    (The bonus is that my saber was issued on my birthday in 1998 and that there were only 6,500 or so made instead of 10,000!)

    The Bad: (I'll be brief!)

    5. Lack of coordination among WOC, C2 Ventures and many of the staff/workers.

    4. The upstair/downstairs system and the fact that you would miss downstairs exhibits because you were UPstairs at the same time and vice-versa!

    3. The upstairs ticket system.

    2. Lack of pre-show info. Would it of killed them to have passed out the schdule while we waited in line or updated the damn site?!

    1. Missing out on things because they were closed before their scheduled time!

    The Ugly:

    5. Missing the McCallum Spectacular.

    4. Pushy staff and rude people in line.

    3. Missing out on the Concert.

    2. Not gettting the coveted Carrie Fisher autograph and the hassle at the autograph area Sunday morning.

    1. Driving back home non-stop for over 8 hours after only having about 14 hours of sleep the ENTIRE WEEKEND!!!

  23. ObiWanJane

    ObiWanJane Jedi Padawan star 4

    Oct 19, 1999
    I have to agree about those terrible maps. The color maps in the $10 program were much better.

    I hated hearing about the lanyard thing -- people getting them just by showing an ID?! Gimme a break.

    Someone said she waited nearly five hours one day -- first, waiting just to get into the building, then waiting to meet Carrie Fisher. You've GOT to be kidding me! Never in a million years would I do that!

    I've always heard good things about Comic Con, so whoever puts that show on should definitely handle C3. Still, I have little interest in going back.

  24. Mirax H

    Mirax H TFN Costumes Staff star 3 VIP

    Aug 16, 1999
    You're welcome Darth Brian :) I have to say after all the attention in my slave costume, I immediately decided to do the original as soon as I got home, clay is on it's way. And Lija, you too are welcome. I had so much fun having my picture taken all weekend! That was part of what made it so much fun. The others that went with us had a great time watching people watch me and take pics (esp as slave girl) that they are dressing up next time. I only denied one picture, only because I was running out of the hotel (after having to clean off coffee from my white Leia dress) because Hubby phoned me that the line was moving to go inside. I felt bad but getting inside was a must! :)
  25. Chewbacca of Kashyyyk

    Chewbacca of Kashyyyk Jedi Youngling star 3

    Nov 17, 1999
    Punisher.....what was said by the actors that made you lose respect for GL
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